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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Republicans have every reason to share ownership of the climate issue]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by goforthegold</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:27:52 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Learning is half the battle<p>Hi,<br>
I took this quiz on the environment at <a href="http://www.mystudiyo.com/activity.php?act=526" rel="nofollow">http://www.mystudiyo.com/activity.php?act=526 <br>
and it was awesome. Before I just cared about the environment but now I understand all the serious problems that are causing horrible changes to mother nature. <p>
I think everyone should take this quiz and start learning more instead of just caring!</p></br></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Learning is half the battle<p>Hi,<br>
I took this quiz on the environment at <a href="http://www.mystudiyo.com/activity.php?act=526" rel="nofollow">http://www.mystudiyo.com/activity.php?act=526 <br>
and it was awesome. Before I just cared about the environment but now I understand all the serious problems that are causing horrible changes to mother nature. <p>
I think everyone should take this quiz and start learning more instead of just caring!</p></br></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:52:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thats the problem</strong></p><p>As far as the general public is concerned, BioFuels, Hydrogen, amd Coal Sequestration are all responsible, economical, climate-safe approaches to dealing with the issue.</p><p>
(And many "Green" organizations also like the Center for American Progress, and the National Resources Defense Council, and even somewhat the Union of Concerned Scienctists)</p><p>
And a Gingrich / Nordhaus style push for "voluntary technology".</p><p>
_</p><p>
Supporting fake options does two things.</p><p>


It removes dollars, attention, and legistlation away from focusing on renewable electricity.<br>
It allows politicians who aren't green to still appear green.</p><p>


Much in the same way that if you were to call the "No Child Left Behind Act" allows politicians to look "compasionate" about public schooling and children. &nbsp;All the while what it does in practice, is remove funding for public schools in low income communities, and generally weaken the public school system as they are forced to teach to a federal test, rather than focus on actual comprehension.</p><p>
_</p><p>
The Rightwing is already quite good at "appearing" green, while derailing serious green proposals.</p><p>
But they aren't very good at actually being green.</p><p>
But the problem with politics,<br>
<b>Perception is Reality.</b></p><p>
Especially in an election year.</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Thats the problem</strong></p><p>As far as the general public is concerned, BioFuels, Hydrogen, amd Coal Sequestration are all responsible, economical, climate-safe approaches to dealing with the issue.</p><p>
(And many "Green" organizations also like the Center for American Progress, and the National Resources Defense Council, and even somewhat the Union of Concerned Scienctists)</p><p>
And a Gingrich / Nordhaus style push for "voluntary technology".</p><p>
_</p><p>
Supporting fake options does two things.</p><p>


It removes dollars, attention, and legistlation away from focusing on renewable electricity.<br>
It allows politicians who aren't green to still appear green.</p><p>


Much in the same way that if you were to call the "No Child Left Behind Act" allows politicians to look "compasionate" about public schooling and children. &nbsp;All the while what it does in practice, is remove funding for public schools in low income communities, and generally weaken the public school system as they are forced to teach to a federal test, rather than focus on actual comprehension.</p><p>
_</p><p>
The Rightwing is already quite good at "appearing" green, while derailing serious green proposals.</p><p>
But they aren't very good at actually being green.</p><p>
But the problem with politics,<br>
<b>Perception is Reality.</b></p><p>
Especially in an election year.</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by randino</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:37:40 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Why the GOP won't budge.</strong></p><p>(1) Romm makes a frequent progressive mistake. He assumes that if you only use the right arguments powered by reason, your opponents will have a Saul on the road to Damascus experience, will come over to your viewpoint, and will join you on the path of righteousness. Unfortunately this seldom happens. Romm chooses to ignore how often the irrational rules in human affairs, and how often the winning side triumphs because its opponents die off before it does.</p><p>
(2) In order to get really serious about the climate, the GOP would have to put a knife in the back of industries &amp; interests that it has been loyal to since the Civil War. It is not going to happen.</p><p>
(3) In order to get really serious about the climate, the GOP will have to machine gun a whole stable of its sacred cows. It will have to renounce its loyalty to the Market God, embrace regulation, and reign in corporate power. Not going to happen.</p><p>
(4) Romm thinks that the current regime that rules the GOP is conservative. It is not. It is radically reactionary, and high on its list of enemies is the environmental movement - which in some GOP venues is a substitute bogeyman for communism.</p><p>
(5) Romm is blind to the power of ideology in the current GOP and how that ideology becomes welded to the identity of its activists &amp; stalwarts. For the past generation one of the main requirements to be a PC Republican is to be a climate change denier. The current ruling generation in the GOP will have to pass from the scene before this will change.</p><p>
While reading Romm's piece an old tune kept echoing in my mind. "Wouldn't It be Nice" by the Beachboys. Well, it would be nice, but for the forseeable future we will find slim pickings in the GOP when it comes to progressive, much less sane climate policies. </p><p>
The GOP must fall in 2008 or we can kiss this planet good bye. &nbsp;</p><p>
1-20-09</p><p>
Randy Cunningham

<p>Randy Cunningham</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Why the GOP won't budge.</strong></p><p>(1) Romm makes a frequent progressive mistake. He assumes that if you only use the right arguments powered by reason, your opponents will have a Saul on the road to Damascus experience, will come over to your viewpoint, and will join you on the path of righteousness. Unfortunately this seldom happens. Romm chooses to ignore how often the irrational rules in human affairs, and how often the winning side triumphs because its opponents die off before it does.</p><p>
(2) In order to get really serious about the climate, the GOP would have to put a knife in the back of industries &amp; interests that it has been loyal to since the Civil War. It is not going to happen.</p><p>
(3) In order to get really serious about the climate, the GOP will have to machine gun a whole stable of its sacred cows. It will have to renounce its loyalty to the Market God, embrace regulation, and reign in corporate power. Not going to happen.</p><p>
(4) Romm thinks that the current regime that rules the GOP is conservative. It is not. It is radically reactionary, and high on its list of enemies is the environmental movement - which in some GOP venues is a substitute bogeyman for communism.</p><p>
(5) Romm is blind to the power of ideology in the current GOP and how that ideology becomes welded to the identity of its activists &amp; stalwarts. For the past generation one of the main requirements to be a PC Republican is to be a climate change denier. The current ruling generation in the GOP will have to pass from the scene before this will change.</p><p>
While reading Romm's piece an old tune kept echoing in my mind. "Wouldn't It be Nice" by the Beachboys. Well, it would be nice, but for the forseeable future we will find slim pickings in the GOP when it comes to progressive, much less sane climate policies. </p><p>
The GOP must fall in 2008 or we can kiss this planet good bye. &nbsp;</p><p>
1-20-09</p><p>
Randy Cunningham

<p>Randy Cunningham</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 05:03:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>The jobs-creation-as-a-virtue fallacy<p><b>Original Post wrote: <b>Jobs: energy efficiency and [epithet deleted] can create 40 million jobs by mid-century<p>
Employment-requirement (which is often masked as "jobs-creation") is not a virtue. Requiring more work for the same given amount of value makes a society <b>poorer, rather than <b>richer. To make society <b>richer, the ratio of new-value/work must be <b>increased, rather than <b>decreased.<p>
Nuclear power (being dense) tends to <b>increase the new-value/work ratio.<p>
Discrete energy-efficiency and diffuse-power types such as wind and solar tend to <b>decrease the new-value/work ratio -- by doing so, <a href="http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/slaves.html" rel="nofollow">they tend to <b>increase human slavery.<p>
A wind- and solar- powered world, with much discrete energy-efficiency, would be a relatively <a href="http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2005/05/medieval-stress-positions.html" rel="nofollow">medieval world.<p>
if you're referring to torture as being "<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22get+medieval+on+his+ass%22" rel="nofollow"><b>medieval," make sure you're using it to describe something really, unquestionably, horribly brutal, not just something that is bad.<br>
</br></b></a></p></a></p></b></a></b></p></b></p></b></b></b></b></b></p></b></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The jobs-creation-as-a-virtue fallacy<p><b>Original Post wrote: <b>Jobs: energy efficiency and [epithet deleted] can create 40 million jobs by mid-century<p>
Employment-requirement (which is often masked as "jobs-creation") is not a virtue. Requiring more work for the same given amount of value makes a society <b>poorer, rather than <b>richer. To make society <b>richer, the ratio of new-value/work must be <b>increased, rather than <b>decreased.<p>
Nuclear power (being dense) tends to <b>increase the new-value/work ratio.<p>
Discrete energy-efficiency and diffuse-power types such as wind and solar tend to <b>decrease the new-value/work ratio -- by doing so, <a href="http://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/slaves.html" rel="nofollow">they tend to <b>increase human slavery.<p>
A wind- and solar- powered world, with much discrete energy-efficiency, would be a relatively <a href="http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2005/05/medieval-stress-positions.html" rel="nofollow">medieval world.<p>
if you're referring to torture as being "<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22get+medieval+on+his+ass%22" rel="nofollow"><b>medieval," make sure you're using it to describe something really, unquestionably, horribly brutal, not just something that is bad.<br>
</br></b></a></p></a></p></b></a></b></p></b></p></b></b></b></b></b></p></b></b></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 17:19:18 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yielding-the-moral-high-ground-part-ii/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Truth will NOT set you Free.<p>While I won't be as blunt as Randy Cunningham,<br>
Certainly there is the problem with many Progressives that think "The Truth will Set you Free"<p>
When really what you need to change isn't peoples access to facts.<p>
You need to actually change their perception of how they interpret facts. Otherwise it's just in one ear, and out the other.<p>
Like water off a duck.<p>
<a href="http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/DTE_Sampler.pdf" rel="nofollow">George Lakoff does a wonderful job in covering this cognitive disconnect, however the LA times also does a pretty good job specifically with global warming:<p>
Although all human societies have moral rules about food and sex, none has a moral rule about atmospheric chemistry. And so we are outraged about every breach of protocol except Kyoto. Yes, global warming is bad, but it doesn't make us feel nauseated or angry or disgraced, and thus we don't feel compelled to rail against it as we do against other momentous threats to our species, such as flag burning. The fact is that if climate change were caused by gay sex, or by the practice of eating kittens, millions of protesters would be massing in the streets.<p>
The third reason why global warming doesn't trigger our concern is....[<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">More]<br>
<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm</a></br></a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The Truth will NOT set you Free.<p>While I won't be as blunt as Randy Cunningham,<br>
Certainly there is the problem with many Progressives that think "The Truth will Set you Free"<p>
When really what you need to change isn't peoples access to facts.<p>
You need to actually change their perception of how they interpret facts. Otherwise it's just in one ear, and out the other.<p>
Like water off a duck.<p>
<a href="http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/DTE_Sampler.pdf" rel="nofollow">George Lakoff does a wonderful job in covering this cognitive disconnect, however the LA times also does a pretty good job specifically with global warming:<p>
Although all human societies have moral rules about food and sex, none has a moral rule about atmospheric chemistry. And so we are outraged about every breach of protocol except Kyoto. Yes, global warming is bad, but it doesn't make us feel nauseated or angry or disgraced, and thus we don't feel compelled to rail against it as we do against other momentous threats to our species, such as flag burning. The fact is that if climate change were caused by gay sex, or by the practice of eating kittens, millions of protesters would be massing in the streets.<p>
The third reason why global warming doesn't trigger our concern is....[<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">More]<br>
<a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0702-26.htm</a></br></a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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