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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Fossil fuel moguls inflate reserve estimates to prevent efforts to move beyond their products]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:27:06 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>High prices not just an oil industry conspiracy</strong></p><p>This post is important in many ways, one of which is to counter what I am seeing more and more, from the center through the left, that somehow the rise in prices is some vague conspiracy by the oil companies and countries.</p><p>
Certainly, they will do their part to make everybody's lives as miserable as possible, but so far, even on the left, there seems to be little admission that the basic problem is an ecological one -- no resource in any ecosystem is infinite, including oil and coal.</p><p>
In fact, it may be that in coming decades the real sin of the oil companies and countries will seen to be, not be that they fleeced the world with high prices, but that they lied about how much oil (and coal) was available.</p><p>
This is also the first time I've seen Hansen talk about green jobs; and I don't know that I've seen him advocate zero emissions, although maybe I wasn't paying attention. &nbsp;Zero emissions is an important concept because it means that people need to focus on how a society would work with no fossil fuels, and no deforestation. &nbsp;Great post!</p>
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				<p><strong>High prices not just an oil industry conspiracy</strong></p><p>This post is important in many ways, one of which is to counter what I am seeing more and more, from the center through the left, that somehow the rise in prices is some vague conspiracy by the oil companies and countries.</p><p>
Certainly, they will do their part to make everybody's lives as miserable as possible, but so far, even on the left, there seems to be little admission that the basic problem is an ecological one -- no resource in any ecosystem is infinite, including oil and coal.</p><p>
In fact, it may be that in coming decades the real sin of the oil companies and countries will seen to be, not be that they fleeced the world with high prices, but that they lied about how much oil (and coal) was available.</p><p>
This is also the first time I've seen Hansen talk about green jobs; and I don't know that I've seen him advocate zero emissions, although maybe I wasn't paying attention. &nbsp;Zero emissions is an important concept because it means that people need to focus on how a society would work with no fossil fuels, and no deforestation. &nbsp;Great post!</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by bigTom</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:18:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>an important subject.</strong></p><p>&nbsp; I would submit (and Hansen indeed mentioned some of the pressures on OPEC) that some of the pressure to overstate reserves is not due to the desire to foil the message of impending scarcity, but other market factors, such as allowed production quotas, and the effect of reserve estimates on the stock price.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;But the results are the same regardless of motivation. Most of the public, and indeed most policy makers are unaware of the severity of resource depletion we face. I think we are entering a crucial time period, where energy scarcity is going to start to bite hard. Angry people could respond by demanding that any possible FF source be used damn the consequences -or we could get down to the business of solving the problem via conservation and renewables. The next several years should be important for setting our future trajectory. </p>
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				<p><strong>an important subject.</strong></p><p>&nbsp; I would submit (and Hansen indeed mentioned some of the pressures on OPEC) that some of the pressure to overstate reserves is not due to the desire to foil the message of impending scarcity, but other market factors, such as allowed production quotas, and the effect of reserve estimates on the stock price.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;But the results are the same regardless of motivation. Most of the public, and indeed most policy makers are unaware of the severity of resource depletion we face. I think we are entering a crucial time period, where energy scarcity is going to start to bite hard. Angry people could respond by demanding that any possible FF source be used damn the consequences -or we could get down to the business of solving the problem via conservation and renewables. The next several years should be important for setting our future trajectory. </p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:21:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Tar sands are being extracted on a large-ish ...<p>scale, almost as big in terms of primary watts as the McArthur River mine. If, when the decision to do this was made, it was true that the choice could not be "left to the discretion of industry moguls", who else had a say?<p>
Well, obviously, government moguls. Government <a href="http://www.opec.org/library/Special%20Publications/pdf/WGW2007.pdf" rel="nofollow">profits more from oil than private interests do. Dr. Hansen, do you understand that carbon already is heavily taxed, and this makes conservation and substitution more difficult than they otherwise would be?<p>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html" rel="nofollow">How shall driving gain nuclear cachet?</a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Tar sands are being extracted on a large-ish ...<p>scale, almost as big in terms of primary watts as the McArthur River mine. If, when the decision to do this was made, it was true that the choice could not be "left to the discretion of industry moguls", who else had a say?<p>
Well, obviously, government moguls. Government <a href="http://www.opec.org/library/Special%20Publications/pdf/WGW2007.pdf" rel="nofollow">profits more from oil than private interests do. Dr. Hansen, do you understand that carbon already is heavily taxed, and this makes conservation and substitution more difficult than they otherwise would be?<p>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html" rel="nofollow">How shall driving gain nuclear cachet?</a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:30:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Saudis and OPEC torpedoed renewables</strong></p><p>in the 1980s by intentionally bringing down oil prices after the shocks of the 1970s, because they saw what happened -- car efficiency went up, oil use went down, and they were scared that it might become a trend (remember Jimmy Carter's White House solar panels?). &nbsp;So, even though they would have profited short-term by keeping prices high (include OPEC here), the collapse of oil prices (to about $20/barrel, remember when?) effectively kept real efforts at bay -- and led to the rise of the SUV.</p><p>
Now there's nothing they can do, so they'll just suck up as much of the world's capital as possible, and the more intelligent (say, some of the gulf states), will try to build non-petroleum-based societies with the proceeds. &nbsp;But I think they are pretty aware of what they're doing.</p>
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				<p><strong>Saudis and OPEC torpedoed renewables</strong></p><p>in the 1980s by intentionally bringing down oil prices after the shocks of the 1970s, because they saw what happened -- car efficiency went up, oil use went down, and they were scared that it might become a trend (remember Jimmy Carter's White House solar panels?). &nbsp;So, even though they would have profited short-term by keeping prices high (include OPEC here), the collapse of oil prices (to about $20/barrel, remember when?) effectively kept real efforts at bay -- and led to the rise of the SUV.</p><p>
Now there's nothing they can do, so they'll just suck up as much of the world's capital as possible, and the more intelligent (say, some of the gulf states), will try to build non-petroleum-based societies with the proceeds. &nbsp;But I think they are pretty aware of what they're doing.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by gmobus</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:38:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Distortions in the information money conveys...<p>are a major cause of the ability for deceitful parties to hide real conditions and profit as they do.<p>
Monetary-based measurements, like GDP are terribly skewed and simply do not help us understand what is happening in the economy or the ecosystem.<p>
I have a proposal that seeks to make the workings of the economy far more transparent by relating the meaning of money to the real currency of work - free energy. My latest blog entry suggests that if people perceived the economy, at both a macro and micro level, as a work process that consumes energy in the process of creating wealth, that they would tend to make better decisions about what to spend money on.<p>
My hypothesis is that if we change perceptions about the nature of reality, people will be able to choose more wisely. At present the vast majority of people base their decisions on ideologically-based perceptions of how the world works. The result is exactly the world we have today. If we want a different direction in the future we have to change how people understand the world.<p>
George<br>
<a href="http://questioneverything.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">http://questioneverything.typepad.com/<br>


<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Distortions in the information money conveys...<p>are a major cause of the ability for deceitful parties to hide real conditions and profit as they do.<p>
Monetary-based measurements, like GDP are terribly skewed and simply do not help us understand what is happening in the economy or the ecosystem.<p>
I have a proposal that seeks to make the workings of the economy far more transparent by relating the meaning of money to the real currency of work - free energy. My latest blog entry suggests that if people perceived the economy, at both a macro and micro level, as a work process that consumes energy in the process of creating wealth, that they would tend to make better decisions about what to spend money on.<p>
My hypothesis is that if we change perceptions about the nature of reality, people will be able to choose more wisely. At present the vast majority of people base their decisions on ideologically-based perceptions of how the world works. The result is exactly the world we have today. If we want a different direction in the future we have to change how people understand the world.<p>
George<br>
<a href="http://questioneverything.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">http://questioneverything.typepad.com/<br>


<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by LGT</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:20:52 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>I have a problem with that!<p>Any view that advocates ZERO emission must be respected. &nbsp;James Hansen is, of course, a noted climate scientist, but when he starts making statements like <br>
if humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to the one on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, CO2 must be reduced from its present 385 ppm to, at most, 350 ppm. We find that peak CO2 can be kept to ~425 ppm<p>
playing 'God' by allowing a ceiling of up to 350ppm and peak CO2 of ~425ppm ... <p>
It is also disingenuous to pretend global warming is our only problem. And I have a problem with that, too!<br>
<a href="http://feww.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/thats-mars-sister/" rel="nofollow">http://feww.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/thats-mars-sister/<br>
</br></a></br></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I have a problem with that!<p>Any view that advocates ZERO emission must be respected. &nbsp;James Hansen is, of course, a noted climate scientist, but when he starts making statements like <br>
if humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to the one on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, CO2 must be reduced from its present 385 ppm to, at most, 350 ppm. We find that peak CO2 can be kept to ~425 ppm<p>
playing 'God' by allowing a ceiling of up to 350ppm and peak CO2 of ~425ppm ... <p>
It is also disingenuous to pretend global warming is our only problem. And I have a problem with that, too!<br>
<a href="http://feww.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/thats-mars-sister/" rel="nofollow">http://feww.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/thats-mars-sister/<br>
</br></a></br></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:38:06 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>It's not too late...</strong></p><p>It's well worth taking a look at the research paper -- everyone should get something out of it. The science seems impeccable. And the fact that we can still avert disaster if we mobilize ought to arouse our strongest passions.</p><p>
It's also good to see Dr. Hansen outline the political terrain so cogently. I suspect he keeps his lips closed in public about the tactics of the White House. But this is about the oil and coal industry maintaining their share prices and profits (and to be fair, that is what corporate charters are all about). But we know what extraordinary measures they have taken to invent the denial industry. No doubt they are working hard behind the scenes on new tactics to keep the carbon addiction going.</p><p>
I also appreciate that Dr. Hansen has followed in the footsteps of the peak oilers in questioning the reserve figures of the EIA and co. Peak oil indeed provides the extra motivation to do all we can to build the carbon-free future.</p><p>
I do think phasing out (unsequestered) coal by 2030 is an appropriate goal for the climate movement. But, as a quibble, I'm disappointed to see Dr. Hansen use a biofuel wedge. That implies he thinks we have no option but to keep the car-paradigm going, (even believing for a moment that biofuels could actually reduce carbon emmissions). But if can promote mass transit over private automobiles we can create a new wedge that reduces our material footprint as well as our carbon footprint, in addition reducing the chance of a catastrophic breakdown of the economy. </p><p>
But that not ought to make loose sight of the fact that Coal is the (Most Immediate) Enemy of the Human Race!</p>
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				<p><strong>It's not too late...</strong></p><p>It's well worth taking a look at the research paper -- everyone should get something out of it. The science seems impeccable. And the fact that we can still avert disaster if we mobilize ought to arouse our strongest passions.</p><p>
It's also good to see Dr. Hansen outline the political terrain so cogently. I suspect he keeps his lips closed in public about the tactics of the White House. But this is about the oil and coal industry maintaining their share prices and profits (and to be fair, that is what corporate charters are all about). But we know what extraordinary measures they have taken to invent the denial industry. No doubt they are working hard behind the scenes on new tactics to keep the carbon addiction going.</p><p>
I also appreciate that Dr. Hansen has followed in the footsteps of the peak oilers in questioning the reserve figures of the EIA and co. Peak oil indeed provides the extra motivation to do all we can to build the carbon-free future.</p><p>
I do think phasing out (unsequestered) coal by 2030 is an appropriate goal for the climate movement. But, as a quibble, I'm disappointed to see Dr. Hansen use a biofuel wedge. That implies he thinks we have no option but to keep the car-paradigm going, (even believing for a moment that biofuels could actually reduce carbon emmissions). But if can promote mass transit over private automobiles we can create a new wedge that reduces our material footprint as well as our carbon footprint, in addition reducing the chance of a catastrophic breakdown of the economy. </p><p>
But that not ought to make loose sight of the fact that Coal is the (Most Immediate) Enemy of the Human Race!</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:05:28 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The Poor Left Without A Chair<p><br>
No, it's more like Musical Chairs.<p>
Those who acquired wealth during the 20th century want to hold on to it during the 21st century.<p>
Since their old paradigms are broken, they are fighting tooth and nail to keep a lid on the new.<p>
"Green" is a code word for "Rich" (bucks, money, cashmoney). &nbsp;<p>
Their apologists such as Hansen don't want us to have the needed fuel to keep progress going.<p>
So they invent bogeymen like "Global Warming" to thwart the middle class and try and keep us in our place.<br>


<p><a href="http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn13545-nanomaterial-turns-radiation-directly-into-electr  icity.html" rel="nofollow">Look! Nuclear Batteries!</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The Poor Left Without A Chair<p><br>
No, it's more like Musical Chairs.<p>
Those who acquired wealth during the 20th century want to hold on to it during the 21st century.<p>
Since their old paradigms are broken, they are fighting tooth and nail to keep a lid on the new.<p>
"Green" is a code word for "Rich" (bucks, money, cashmoney). &nbsp;<p>
Their apologists such as Hansen don't want us to have the needed fuel to keep progress going.<p>
So they invent bogeymen like "Global Warming" to thwart the middle class and try and keep us in our place.<br>


<p><a href="http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn13545-nanomaterial-turns-radiation-directly-into-electr  icity.html" rel="nofollow">Look! Nuclear Batteries!</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Russ</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:33:46 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>one thing about that stadium</strong></p><p>This is more than a bit distasteful, as it discriminates against the lower middle class. Nevertheless, it should be a great stadium and as long as the owner is footing the bill without public subsidies for the stadium itself, we may have little grounds for complaint. </p><p>
</p><p>
My understanding is, this stadium required a vicious public subsidy, namely the expropriation and destruction of a large public park the local (lower class) neighborhood had always cherished as its only outdoor space. </p><p>
Oh well, I guess they can get exercise and fresh air in the alleys, and their children can play in the sewers. Just as long as Yankee fans are happy.</p>
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				<p><strong>one thing about that stadium</strong></p><p>This is more than a bit distasteful, as it discriminates against the lower middle class. Nevertheless, it should be a great stadium and as long as the owner is footing the bill without public subsidies for the stadium itself, we may have little grounds for complaint. </p><p>
</p><p>
My understanding is, this stadium required a vicious public subsidy, namely the expropriation and destruction of a large public park the local (lower class) neighborhood had always cherished as its only outdoor space. </p><p>
Oh well, I guess they can get exercise and fresh air in the alleys, and their children can play in the sewers. Just as long as Yankee fans are happy.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/yankee-ticket-prices-and-fossil-fuels/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 04:02:59 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Yes, they are overstated...</strong></p><p>...but the amounts that come out and are refined cannot be much overstated. &nbsp;</p><p>
So sooner or later...and by sonner, I mean like right now, the drop in reserves becomes apparent. &nbsp;They can say a reserve still has X amount, but if only Y amount comes out the pipelines, and is dropping, then it's pretty apparent that X amount isn't really there.</p><p>
And then prices rise anyway, 'cause only Y amount is produced and fallin'. &nbsp;The higher prices cause concern, and hopefully conservation increases.</p>
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				<p><strong>Yes, they are overstated...</strong></p><p>...but the amounts that come out and are refined cannot be much overstated. &nbsp;</p><p>
So sooner or later...and by sonner, I mean like right now, the drop in reserves becomes apparent. &nbsp;They can say a reserve still has X amount, but if only Y amount comes out the pipelines, and is dropping, then it's pretty apparent that X amount isn't really there.</p><p>
And then prices rise anyway, 'cause only Y amount is produced and fallin'. &nbsp;The higher prices cause concern, and hopefully conservation increases.</p>
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