<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Carbon offsets make for strange bedfellows]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Gar Lipow http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Fri, 09 Mar 2007 18:08:36 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/1 RECS

I think there are two things you can take from this:

1)RECs probably do lower carbon emissions compared to not having RECS.

2) We don't know by how much they lower carbon emissions - probably not by the number of kWh you have paid for.

For instance my local Safeway gas station confidently proclaims that it runs 100% on wind power. It is nearly certain that the money Safeway pays for REC ensures (in the long run) than more wind energy will be produced that if they were not buying these RECS. It appears unlikely that buying a megawatt hour of wind REC will translate into approximately a megawatt hour of increased supply in the long run.

]]> RECS

I think there are two things you can take from this:

1)RECs probably do lower carbon emissions compared to not having RECS.

2) We don't know by how much they lower carbon emissions - probably not by the number of kWh you have paid for.

For instance my local Safeway gas station confidently proclaims that it runs 100% on wind power. It is nearly certain that the money Safeway pays for REC ensures (in the long run) than more wind energy will be produced that if they were not buying these RECS. It appears unlikely that buying a megawatt hour of wind REC will translate into approximately a megawatt hour of increased supply in the long run.

]]> Comment #2 by REM http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Fri, 09 Mar 2007 22:14:32 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/2 The Cost of Wind

North of the US border they are paying 8 cents on RFPs and another 1 cent for production incentives with no charges for use of transmission lines. Wind developers also hope to cash in on the offset market and are lobbying to that end although at 9 cents per kw-hr   they should be able to make a decent return on investment when we keep getting told by wind fans that the cost of wind is around 3 cents.  What are offsets worth per kw-hr?   $10 tonne? Or another 10% into the pockets of the developers from consumers?  Why should taxpayers/consumers be paying 10 cents for wind energy when cost of conservation, efficiency and demand management runs at 4 cents keeping in mind that 70% of the delivered energy in a wind mix will be from some fossil fuel burner anyway? We are paying a hefty premium for a marginal reduction in GHGs from wind. Meanwhile old coal plants keep spewing out their toxic brew.  Good luck trying to retire a mere 5% of old coal with wind.  

" Whereas the promotion of renewables in Germany was definitely effective in the sense of increasing capacity and production it was certainly not cost effective in the sense of getting the highest effect per Euro in terms of
greenhouse gas reduction or production from renewable sources."

Renewable Energy Foundation- SUBMISSION TO THE STERN REVIEW ON THE ECONOMICS OF CLIMATE CHANGE
http://www.nkpw.nl/images/stories/REF%20Submission%20on%2 ...



]]> The Cost of Wind

North of the US border they are paying 8 cents on RFPs and another 1 cent for production incentives with no charges for use of transmission lines. Wind developers also hope to cash in on the offset market and are lobbying to that end although at 9 cents per kw-hr   they should be able to make a decent return on investment when we keep getting told by wind fans that the cost of wind is around 3 cents.  What are offsets worth per kw-hr?   $10 tonne? Or another 10% into the pockets of the developers from consumers?  Why should taxpayers/consumers be paying 10 cents for wind energy when cost of conservation, efficiency and demand management runs at 4 cents keeping in mind that 70% of the delivered energy in a wind mix will be from some fossil fuel burner anyway? We are paying a hefty premium for a marginal reduction in GHGs from wind. Meanwhile old coal plants keep spewing out their toxic brew.  Good luck trying to retire a mere 5% of old coal with wind.  

" Whereas the promotion of renewables in Germany was definitely effective in the sense of increasing capacity and production it was certainly not cost effective in the sense of getting the highest effect per Euro in terms of
greenhouse gas reduction or production from renewable sources."

Renewable Energy Foundation- SUBMISSION TO THE STERN REVIEW ON THE ECONOMICS OF CLIMATE CHANGE
http://www.nkpw.nl/images/stories/REF%20Submission%20on%2 ...



]]> Comment #3 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Fri, 09 Mar 2007 23:13:02 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/3 Why subsidize wind?

Why should taxpayers/consumers be paying 10 cents for wind energy...<?blockquote>

Because it will save trillions of dollars of taxpayer's money that will otherwise be spent on oil wars and GHG global climate change disaster remediation?  Seems like a good enough reason to subsidize renewables.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Why subsidize wind?

Why should taxpayers/consumers be paying 10 cents for wind energy...<?blockquote>

Because it will save trillions of dollars of taxpayer's money that will otherwise be spent on oil wars and GHG global climate change disaster remediation?  Seems like a good enough reason to subsidize renewables.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #4 by REM http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:06:34 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/4 Why not to subsidize inefficient wind farms

One more time. Your wind farms are backed up for 75% of the delivered energy by coal, gas or oil. Texas's capacity value for wind is 2.5% so you have to back up every wind MW with a fossil fuel MW.  To cut 10% of the 4 trillion kWh in conventional electricity production  will cost $400 billion in capital. I know that's now object as long s China keeps buying the debt. $400 billion would go a long way cleaning up the old coal plants. $400 billion would go a long towards conservation, demand management and on-site generation. All the other options have a higher payback considering financial, social and environmental costs including GHG savings vs. inefficient industrial wind plants.

A small fraction of your electricity use comes from oil.  The reason America is a war has nothing  to do with energy security and cost of oil. Other nations don't sacrifice their young so that their corporations can plunder the resources of others.
If you are worried about oil consumption park the gas guzzlers and make the homes more energy efficient.

]]> Why not to subsidize inefficient wind farms

One more time. Your wind farms are backed up for 75% of the delivered energy by coal, gas or oil. Texas's capacity value for wind is 2.5% so you have to back up every wind MW with a fossil fuel MW.  To cut 10% of the 4 trillion kWh in conventional electricity production  will cost $400 billion in capital. I know that's now object as long s China keeps buying the debt. $400 billion would go a long way cleaning up the old coal plants. $400 billion would go a long towards conservation, demand management and on-site generation. All the other options have a higher payback considering financial, social and environmental costs including GHG savings vs. inefficient industrial wind plants.

A small fraction of your electricity use comes from oil.  The reason America is a war has nothing  to do with energy security and cost of oil. Other nations don't sacrifice their young so that their corporations can plunder the resources of others.
If you are worried about oil consumption park the gas guzzlers and make the homes more energy efficient.

]]> Comment #5 by sunflower http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Sat, 10 Mar 2007 01:28:35 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/5 Exactly

But how to educate the unwashed masses who just want to feel good today.

]]> Exactly

But how to educate the unwashed masses who just want to feel good today.

]]> Comment #6 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/ Sat, 10 Mar 2007 04:10:39 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/would-adam-smith-buy-green-power/6 RECs

RECs only make sense where you can prove that the forward and backward mechanisms are exactly equivalent.  It's pure automata theory.  

I don't really see that the process leading up to emitting CO2 can be exactly neutralized by a person refraining from doing that same process.

To make it work, you'd have to require someone to "undo" or reverse (as in a reversable computation in a quantum computer) the chemical process.   You'd have to have someone take carbon and hydrogen and put it back together as coal or oil and put it back in the ground.

This is my argument about celebrity do gooders whose lifestyles and business (Hollywood) consume enormous amounts of energy and get want to be the "good guys" by putting on a concert (more energy).   What I need Leonardo di Caprio to do is to make a list of all his movies (Titanic) and calculate how much energy it used and then figure out how he can put that energy back into a usable form for the rest of the people.

The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.

]]> RECs

RECs only make sense where you can prove that the forward and backward mechanisms are exactly equivalent.  It's pure automata theory.  

I don't really see that the process leading up to emitting CO2 can be exactly neutralized by a person refraining from doing that same process.

To make it work, you'd have to require someone to "undo" or reverse (as in a reversable computation in a quantum computer) the chemical process.   You'd have to have someone take carbon and hydrogen and put it back together as coal or oil and put it back in the ground.

This is my argument about celebrity do gooders whose lifestyles and business (Hollywood) consume enormous amounts of energy and get want to be the "good guys" by putting on a concert (more energy).   What I need Leonardo di Caprio to do is to make a list of all his movies (Titanic) and calculate how much energy it used and then figure out how he can put that energy back into a usable form for the rest of the people.

The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.

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