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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The financial crisis, how we got here, and who knows what to do about it]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:51:28 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Do they want to keep housing prices high?</strong></p><p>Because clearly housing prices are going to come down, and should come down, as they're historically much too high at this point. &nbsp;If that's they're intent, then the bailout certainly won't work.</p><p>
I'm also wondering if more and more Democrats will see the political risk of voting for this.</p>
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				<p><strong>Do they want to keep housing prices high?</strong></p><p>Because clearly housing prices are going to come down, and should come down, as they're historically much too high at this point. &nbsp;If that's they're intent, then the bailout certainly won't work.</p><p>
I'm also wondering if more and more Democrats will see the political risk of voting for this.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by gmobus</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:36:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Too true Jon, but...</strong></p><p>There are a huge number of home owners (err, mortgage holders) out there that felt pretty rich when their home values appeared to rise. Aside from re-financing, a lot of them started loading credit cards figuring they'd be richer tomorrow through the magic of home appreciation. As I understand it, this is part of the problem with some fraction of foreclosures, but I'm thinking there are still a lot of people deep in debt that will come due with a vengeance.</p><p>
I have a neighbor who was having a great time this summer on his ski boat that he just bought last spring. It's now up for sale. Hmmm.

<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Too true Jon, but...</strong></p><p>There are a huge number of home owners (err, mortgage holders) out there that felt pretty rich when their home values appeared to rise. Aside from re-financing, a lot of them started loading credit cards figuring they'd be richer tomorrow through the magic of home appreciation. As I understand it, this is part of the problem with some fraction of foreclosures, but I'm thinking there are still a lot of people deep in debt that will come due with a vengeance.</p><p>
I have a neighbor who was having a great time this summer on his ski boat that he just bought last spring. It's now up for sale. Hmmm.

<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:03:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>The real question is, do we WANT it to reverse?</strong></p><p>...Think 'bout it.</p><p>
Massive consumerism = Massive environmental destruction</p><p>
And massive consumerism is driven by a massive economy, 'specially one where people are encouraged to constantly buy more goods and dispose of the one they have.</p><p>
And let's face it, even the strictest of environmental regulations can only make a dent when there are literally hundreds of millions of consumers who constantly want more and don't see the environment as a top priority compared to their personal fortunes and need for new toys.</p><p>
I can't think of any other way that would have such a drastic impact on that trend in such a short amount of time as a financial disaster.</p><p>
No more costly SUV's, no more costly McMansion developments, reduced air travel, reduced manufacturing, less international trade overall, less construction, less gasoline and energy demand.</p><p>
And it all happens virtually overnight with no need for lengthy battles over new environmental regulations.</p><p>
Though there are downsides (hear the chorus of "suspend the current environmental regulations during these tough economic times"), overall, a massive economic downturn might just be our saving grace. </p>
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				<p><strong>The real question is, do we WANT it to reverse?</strong></p><p>...Think 'bout it.</p><p>
Massive consumerism = Massive environmental destruction</p><p>
And massive consumerism is driven by a massive economy, 'specially one where people are encouraged to constantly buy more goods and dispose of the one they have.</p><p>
And let's face it, even the strictest of environmental regulations can only make a dent when there are literally hundreds of millions of consumers who constantly want more and don't see the environment as a top priority compared to their personal fortunes and need for new toys.</p><p>
I can't think of any other way that would have such a drastic impact on that trend in such a short amount of time as a financial disaster.</p><p>
No more costly SUV's, no more costly McMansion developments, reduced air travel, reduced manufacturing, less international trade overall, less construction, less gasoline and energy demand.</p><p>
And it all happens virtually overnight with no need for lengthy battles over new environmental regulations.</p><p>
Though there are downsides (hear the chorus of "suspend the current environmental regulations during these tough economic times"), overall, a massive economic downturn might just be our saving grace. </p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Bob Wallace</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:06:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>asdf</strong></p><p>It's pretty clear how we got here. &nbsp;We borrowed and loaned as if there would never be another economic downturn.</p><p>
We have just had a huge housing bubble. &nbsp;People paid way too much for houses just as people paid way too much for tech stocks in the previous bubble. </p><p>
Unlike the tech bubble people borrowed vast amounts of money to buy a house and moved in. &nbsp;You couldn't exactly take up residence in a stock certificate. &nbsp;You didn't find yourself on the street if your tech stock was "foreclosed".</p><p>
And unlike the tech bubble people were left with huge bills to pay, bills that they assumed would become smaller bites out of their paychecks as inflation gave them a helping hand.</p><p>
But we've had little inflation. &nbsp;No help there.</p><p>
And other (very foolish) people spent what equity they had. &nbsp;They refinanced their houses or took out equity loans to pay off credit card bills or to buy short lifetime items. &nbsp;</p><p>
People also ran up large amounts of personal debt that ate up any money that they might have to used to make mortgage payments.</p><p>
And other people got suckered into loans that they didn't understand. &nbsp;They signed mortgages that were going to balloon way past their ability to service in a few years.</p><p>
Mortgage providers turned a blind eye to what was happening. &nbsp;They went for the short term return and ignored the basics. &nbsp;A prudent banker would have called halt to new mortgages some time ago and started working on a plan to avoid foreclosures. &nbsp; </p><p>
You can't loan out $500k for a house, foreclose on it, re-sell it for $200k and stay in business. &nbsp;Someone has to be looking out for the downside.</p><p>
Major greed and fairly major lack of historical knowledge. &nbsp;No great mystery as to why it happened.</p>
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				<p><strong>asdf</strong></p><p>It's pretty clear how we got here. &nbsp;We borrowed and loaned as if there would never be another economic downturn.</p><p>
We have just had a huge housing bubble. &nbsp;People paid way too much for houses just as people paid way too much for tech stocks in the previous bubble. </p><p>
Unlike the tech bubble people borrowed vast amounts of money to buy a house and moved in. &nbsp;You couldn't exactly take up residence in a stock certificate. &nbsp;You didn't find yourself on the street if your tech stock was "foreclosed".</p><p>
And unlike the tech bubble people were left with huge bills to pay, bills that they assumed would become smaller bites out of their paychecks as inflation gave them a helping hand.</p><p>
But we've had little inflation. &nbsp;No help there.</p><p>
And other (very foolish) people spent what equity they had. &nbsp;They refinanced their houses or took out equity loans to pay off credit card bills or to buy short lifetime items. &nbsp;</p><p>
People also ran up large amounts of personal debt that ate up any money that they might have to used to make mortgage payments.</p><p>
And other people got suckered into loans that they didn't understand. &nbsp;They signed mortgages that were going to balloon way past their ability to service in a few years.</p><p>
Mortgage providers turned a blind eye to what was happening. &nbsp;They went for the short term return and ignored the basics. &nbsp;A prudent banker would have called halt to new mortgages some time ago and started working on a plan to avoid foreclosures. &nbsp; </p><p>
You can't loan out $500k for a house, foreclose on it, re-sell it for $200k and stay in business. &nbsp;Someone has to be looking out for the downside.</p><p>
Major greed and fairly major lack of historical knowledge. &nbsp;No great mystery as to why it happened.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by grangeredux</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:58:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Don't neglect monetary policy</strong></p><p>Ultimate responsibility resides in the Federal Reserve, which has pursued a reckless course of loose monetary policy for many years. &nbsp;To speak of "little inflation" ignores the fact that any inflation at all is a debasement of the dollar, and the cumulative effect of the Fed's political accommodation in recent years has been to impose a silent tax upon small savers and to award a silent subsidy to speculators -- speculators who, because of the effect of US tax policies, were able to place big bets with Other People's Money. &nbsp;By encouraging conspicuous consumption and discouraging thrift, the Fed has not only rewarded profligate greed but has also notably contributed to our environmental degradation.</p><p>
Enviros need to focus more on the Money Power, what it is, how it operates, and who operates it, because the Money Power is a major influence in determining Americans' economic behavior.</p>
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				<p><strong>Don't neglect monetary policy</strong></p><p>Ultimate responsibility resides in the Federal Reserve, which has pursued a reckless course of loose monetary policy for many years. &nbsp;To speak of "little inflation" ignores the fact that any inflation at all is a debasement of the dollar, and the cumulative effect of the Fed's political accommodation in recent years has been to impose a silent tax upon small savers and to award a silent subsidy to speculators -- speculators who, because of the effect of US tax policies, were able to place big bets with Other People's Money. &nbsp;By encouraging conspicuous consumption and discouraging thrift, the Fed has not only rewarded profligate greed but has also notably contributed to our environmental degradation.</p><p>
Enviros need to focus more on the Money Power, what it is, how it operates, and who operates it, because the Money Power is a major influence in determining Americans' economic behavior.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Bob Wallace</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:44:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/where-are-we-going-and-why-are-we-in-this-handbasket/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ultimate responsibility ...</strong></p><p>Resides with the people (mainly Republicans) who have fought to prevent regulation of financial markets.</p><p>
Markets need to be free enough to allow innovation &nbsp;and competition, but not so free that the most greedy among us are allowed to do as they wish.</p><p>
It's a lesson that we have to relearn from time to time.</p>
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				<p><strong>Ultimate responsibility ...</strong></p><p>Resides with the people (mainly Republicans) who have fought to prevent regulation of financial markets.</p><p>
Markets need to be free enough to allow innovation &nbsp;and competition, but not so free that the most greedy among us are allowed to do as they wish.</p><p>
It's a lesson that we have to relearn from time to time.</p>
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