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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Bush administration ignoring environmental laws, building border wall anyway]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by thricejamie</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:21:58 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Cactus Ed...</strong></p><p>Hard to know what Ed would say about this. &nbsp;For all of the love he had for the preservation of the American Southwest, he was also a big critic of the influx of Mexican immigrants in the area, legal and otherwise.</p>
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				<p><strong>Cactus Ed...</strong></p><p>Hard to know what Ed would say about this. &nbsp;For all of the love he had for the preservation of the American Southwest, he was also a big critic of the influx of Mexican immigrants in the area, legal and otherwise.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by javaearth</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:01:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Constructions tycons. -</strong></p><p>The more I think about this, I don't think this project is even about stop illegal crossing the border. It is about the construction developers getting more money. </p><p>
The Bush admin has created so many poor choices, that have led to many creatures destuction. - It is sad that any person could/did vote for this numnut! </p>
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				<p><strong>Constructions tycons. -</strong></p><p>The more I think about this, I don't think this project is even about stop illegal crossing the border. It is about the construction developers getting more money. </p><p>
The Bush admin has created so many poor choices, that have led to many creatures destuction. - It is sad that any person could/did vote for this numnut! </p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:21:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Israel's wall<p>Here's a whiff of what's to come with this wall, from another arid place looking to keep out people and (un?)wittingly fouling up the wildlife: the border of Israel and the West Bank: <p>
Fencing Israel<br>
Terrorism, wilderness, and the Israeli security wall<br>
by Haim Watzman<p>
<a href="http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2863" rel="nofollow">http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2 ...<p>
Erik<br>


<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></a></p></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Israel's wall<p>Here's a whiff of what's to come with this wall, from another arid place looking to keep out people and (un?)wittingly fouling up the wildlife: the border of Israel and the West Bank: <p>
Fencing Israel<br>
Terrorism, wilderness, and the Israeli security wall<br>
by Haim Watzman<p>
<a href="http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2863" rel="nofollow">http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2 ...<p>
Erik<br>


<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></a></p></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:11:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>So, do animals ever count?</strong></p><p>Thanks, Erik, for that interesting, depressing essay by Haim Watzman. &nbsp;Watzman refers briefly to how "European and African" fauna meet in Palestine; and, also briefly, he mentions ibexes and leopards particulary. &nbsp;Rather, there had been a great community of animals from East Africa to Central and Southern Asia, which the desertification of North Africa and the Middle East in the past couple of millennia tended to divide into discreet populations.</p><p>
The fauna of Israel and the Occupied West Bank (?; and are there any critters in Gaza, way over-populated by humans?) are probably isolated from other members of their species. &nbsp;And they themselves should ideally have access to the several ecosystems in that tiny region: the Jordan valley, the Judean and Negev deserts, the Mediterranean littoral, and the intervening highlands.</p><p>
As Watzman makes clear, human technological reactions based on fear and hatred will of course decrease animals' chances for survival.</p><p>
As Watzman's words suggest, without his intending, the fear and hatred that human beings fear for one another do not counsel them to do good and wise things.</p><p>
Note that Lou Dobbs and his fellow travelers similarly refuse to understand Latino undocumented visitors to this country as they truly are, our vulnerable, needy brethren, but prefer to indulge their baser instincts and condemn them as violent, aggressive invaders, threats to our womenfolk and children, competitors for jobs, importers of dangerous illegal substances, and allies of terrorists. &nbsp;That is fear and hatred at work. &nbsp;It will do no one any good, ever.</p><p>
On a natural-science note, Watzman included both "jackals" and "coyotes" among the fauna of Palestine. &nbsp;"Jackals" probably refers to the Golden Jackal, Canis aureus. &nbsp;But "coyotes" cannot possibly refer to the North American and Central American canid of that name, Canis latrans. &nbsp;However, there may indeed be an isolated population of the Gray Wolf in Palestine, Canis lupus ssp., and those wolves might be small in stature, like our own Mexican wolves, another subspecies adapted for an arid climate; and those wolves might colloquially be referred to by humans with an ill-educated American background as "coyotes."

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>So, do animals ever count?</strong></p><p>Thanks, Erik, for that interesting, depressing essay by Haim Watzman. &nbsp;Watzman refers briefly to how "European and African" fauna meet in Palestine; and, also briefly, he mentions ibexes and leopards particulary. &nbsp;Rather, there had been a great community of animals from East Africa to Central and Southern Asia, which the desertification of North Africa and the Middle East in the past couple of millennia tended to divide into discreet populations.</p><p>
The fauna of Israel and the Occupied West Bank (?; and are there any critters in Gaza, way over-populated by humans?) are probably isolated from other members of their species. &nbsp;And they themselves should ideally have access to the several ecosystems in that tiny region: the Jordan valley, the Judean and Negev deserts, the Mediterranean littoral, and the intervening highlands.</p><p>
As Watzman makes clear, human technological reactions based on fear and hatred will of course decrease animals' chances for survival.</p><p>
As Watzman's words suggest, without his intending, the fear and hatred that human beings fear for one another do not counsel them to do good and wise things.</p><p>
Note that Lou Dobbs and his fellow travelers similarly refuse to understand Latino undocumented visitors to this country as they truly are, our vulnerable, needy brethren, but prefer to indulge their baser instincts and condemn them as violent, aggressive invaders, threats to our womenfolk and children, competitors for jobs, importers of dangerous illegal substances, and allies of terrorists. &nbsp;That is fear and hatred at work. &nbsp;It will do no one any good, ever.</p><p>
On a natural-science note, Watzman included both "jackals" and "coyotes" among the fauna of Palestine. &nbsp;"Jackals" probably refers to the Golden Jackal, Canis aureus. &nbsp;But "coyotes" cannot possibly refer to the North American and Central American canid of that name, Canis latrans. &nbsp;However, there may indeed be an isolated population of the Gray Wolf in Palestine, Canis lupus ssp., and those wolves might be small in stature, like our own Mexican wolves, another subspecies adapted for an arid climate; and those wolves might colloquially be referred to by humans with an ill-educated American background as "coyotes."

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:41:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>aesthetics and extinction</strong></p><p>Ocelots are indeed among the most incredibly beautiful animals on the planet, and it is right and just that they should be chosen to be the poster-victims of the US HSD's onslaught on the connected ecosystems of the US's southern border, even as polar bears are the poster-victims of how global warming is affecting the Arctic.</p><p>
But jaguars are stunning too, our largest native cats. &nbsp;And the more diminutive margays, often overlooked, are, if anything, even prettier and cuter than ocelots.</p><p>
And jaguarundis, of whom our South Texas pal Sam Wells is a great admirer, are also beautiful, but rather more subtly so, since their coloring is a solid charcoal, or thereabouts, not a gorgeous array of black markings on a white/tawny/gold background.</p><p>
Also, we should never underestimate the effect the border wall is likely to have on the Mexican Wolf, a southernmost subspecies of the Gray Wolf: recently reintroduced into both southern Arizona and New Mexico, and central Chihuahua and Sonora, it would not be helped at all by a big obstacle on the border.</p><p>
On another matter: We should understand that the erection of the border wall will not drive any of these species into extinction, because all of them are doing OK elsewhere. &nbsp;But we need to understand that populations matter too, and definitely deserve much effort to be preserved. &nbsp;All four of those cats, and the one canid, may very well be eliminated from all of northern Mexico and the US Southwest, without our hard work, including strongly opposing the border wall.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>aesthetics and extinction</strong></p><p>Ocelots are indeed among the most incredibly beautiful animals on the planet, and it is right and just that they should be chosen to be the poster-victims of the US HSD's onslaught on the connected ecosystems of the US's southern border, even as polar bears are the poster-victims of how global warming is affecting the Arctic.</p><p>
But jaguars are stunning too, our largest native cats. &nbsp;And the more diminutive margays, often overlooked, are, if anything, even prettier and cuter than ocelots.</p><p>
And jaguarundis, of whom our South Texas pal Sam Wells is a great admirer, are also beautiful, but rather more subtly so, since their coloring is a solid charcoal, or thereabouts, not a gorgeous array of black markings on a white/tawny/gold background.</p><p>
Also, we should never underestimate the effect the border wall is likely to have on the Mexican Wolf, a southernmost subspecies of the Gray Wolf: recently reintroduced into both southern Arizona and New Mexico, and central Chihuahua and Sonora, it would not be helped at all by a big obstacle on the border.</p><p>
On another matter: We should understand that the erection of the border wall will not drive any of these species into extinction, because all of them are doing OK elsewhere. &nbsp;But we need to understand that populations matter too, and definitely deserve much effort to be preserved. &nbsp;All four of those cats, and the one canid, may very well be eliminated from all of northern Mexico and the US Southwest, without our hard work, including strongly opposing the border wall.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:57:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Fence exception<p>The bushwackers did make an exception on the fence though. &nbsp;Where? &nbsp;At the estate of infamous bush crony and 35 mill bush library donor Dallas billionaire Ray L. Hunt.<p>
<a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/19/hunt-border-fence/" rel="nofollow">http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/19/hunt-border-fence/<p>
Has anyone checked the fence construction crews lately for illegal workers? &nbsp;<p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626823" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626 ...<p>
Well at least the Blackwater "abu ghraib" for illegal aliens in socal was canceled. &nbsp;Or was it?<p>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/usa.danglaister" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/usa.danglaist ... <p>
And now this environmental disaster from this boondoggle as well? &nbsp;And the damn thing is defeated by a wirecutter. &nbsp;Whenever mules want to move a load of human cargo across.<p>
No mention of universal biometric ID and a fool proof system so employers can make sure they don't hire illegals and enforcement against employers who do. &nbsp;In order to stop the incentive for illegal immigration. &nbsp;And allow legal work permits for aliens and legal wages, safe working conditions, and tax and social security collection. <p>
And my congressman sent campaign ads out in the mail all about his visit to the border fence and his dilligent work to get it done. &nbsp;Hooray. <p>
Sure makes me want to campaign for him. &nbsp;Yow. &nbsp;Oh yeah, he likes cellulosic ethanol too. &nbsp;And I betcha clean coal and nukes too. &nbsp;Haven't asked, but it's a fair assumption. &nbsp;He claims to be a democrat too.<p>
The border fence, another stinking load of contracting on america, brought to US by the most corrupt, worst administration in history. &nbsp;Backed by my congressman, who I campaigned for. &nbsp;he wants more donations from me now.<p>
Get it from Blackwater and Halliburton, you moron. &nbsp;That's what your bushco friends do.<p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Fence exception<p>The bushwackers did make an exception on the fence though. &nbsp;Where? &nbsp;At the estate of infamous bush crony and 35 mill bush library donor Dallas billionaire Ray L. Hunt.<p>
<a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/19/hunt-border-fence/" rel="nofollow">http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/19/hunt-border-fence/<p>
Has anyone checked the fence construction crews lately for illegal workers? &nbsp;<p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626823" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6626 ...<p>
Well at least the Blackwater "abu ghraib" for illegal aliens in socal was canceled. &nbsp;Or was it?<p>
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/usa.danglaister" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/usa.danglaist ... <p>
And now this environmental disaster from this boondoggle as well? &nbsp;And the damn thing is defeated by a wirecutter. &nbsp;Whenever mules want to move a load of human cargo across.<p>
No mention of universal biometric ID and a fool proof system so employers can make sure they don't hire illegals and enforcement against employers who do. &nbsp;In order to stop the incentive for illegal immigration. &nbsp;And allow legal work permits for aliens and legal wages, safe working conditions, and tax and social security collection. <p>
And my congressman sent campaign ads out in the mail all about his visit to the border fence and his dilligent work to get it done. &nbsp;Hooray. <p>
Sure makes me want to campaign for him. &nbsp;Yow. &nbsp;Oh yeah, he likes cellulosic ethanol too. &nbsp;And I betcha clean coal and nukes too. &nbsp;Haven't asked, but it's a fair assumption. &nbsp;He claims to be a democrat too.<p>
The border fence, another stinking load of contracting on america, brought to US by the most corrupt, worst administration in history. &nbsp;Backed by my congressman, who I campaigned for. &nbsp;he wants more donations from me now.<p>
Get it from Blackwater and Halliburton, you moron. &nbsp;That's what your bushco friends do.<p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by madtownkdog</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 06:24:56 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Pull Up Stakes</strong></p><p>I'd wager that Edward Abbey would be pulling up stakes...if any project was ripe for monkeywrenching, this is it...</p>
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				<p><strong>Pull Up Stakes</strong></p><p>I'd wager that Edward Abbey would be pulling up stakes...if any project was ripe for monkeywrenching, this is it...</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 06:41:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Monkeywrench Gang&quot;<p>Well, you got me good, MadTownKDog.<p>
Here is the article:<p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey.<p>
I already feel indirectly accused by my friends (i.e., people whom I admire; I do not claim that they have any affection for me) Wolverine and LegumeSam (writing on another thread) for being too ineffective, too much like the Dalai Lama, sheltering behind an ethic of non-violence.<p>
But I do indeed believe that that ethic must be preserved. &nbsp;And if "what Edward Abbey would do" is an act of violence, then I would have to ask long and deeply why I should participate in it.<p>
Notate bene, however: Civil disobedience is not in itself violent. &nbsp;"Pulling up stakes" is not violent!

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Monkeywrench Gang&quot;<p>Well, you got me good, MadTownKDog.<p>
Here is the article:<p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Abbey.<p>
I already feel indirectly accused by my friends (i.e., people whom I admire; I do not claim that they have any affection for me) Wolverine and LegumeSam (writing on another thread) for being too ineffective, too much like the Dalai Lama, sheltering behind an ethic of non-violence.<p>
But I do indeed believe that that ethic must be preserved. &nbsp;And if "what Edward Abbey would do" is an act of violence, then I would have to ask long and deeply why I should participate in it.<p>
Notate bene, however: Civil disobedience is not in itself violent. &nbsp;"Pulling up stakes" is not violent!

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Storm Dragon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:12:44 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Cactus Ed had his faults, but....</strong></p><p>While he didn't care much for human immigrants, I don't believe he had anything against jaguars and Sonoran pronghorns. &nbsp;I like to think that his love of wilderness would ultimately have overridden his anti-immigrant sentiments, and that he would recognize the border wall as being in the same category as the Glenn Canyon damn. (sic.) <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And what should we do? &nbsp;Personally, I think some good old-fashioned civil disobedience is definitely in order. &nbsp;If the powers that be insist on flouting the law, what else can we do?

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Cactus Ed had his faults, but....</strong></p><p>While he didn't care much for human immigrants, I don't believe he had anything against jaguars and Sonoran pronghorns. &nbsp;I like to think that his love of wilderness would ultimately have overridden his anti-immigrant sentiments, and that he would recognize the border wall as being in the same category as the Glenn Canyon damn. (sic.) <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And what should we do? &nbsp;Personally, I think some good old-fashioned civil disobedience is definitely in order. &nbsp;If the powers that be insist on flouting the law, what else can we do?

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Backcut</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:07:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Careful!<p>I've seen where these direct action people have only hurt their cause by removing flagging that protects "no treatment areas" within forest cutting units. There are also plenty of other protective flagging that could be tampered with, resulting in unrecoverable damages.<p>
I'm not defending the wall or anything. I'm for saving resources and ecosystems.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Careful!<p>I've seen where these direct action people have only hurt their cause by removing flagging that protects "no treatment areas" within forest cutting units. There are also plenty of other protective flagging that could be tampered with, resulting in unrecoverable damages.<p>
I'm not defending the wall or anything. I'm for saving resources and ecosystems.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:18:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sonoran pronghorn<p>Thanks, Storm Dragon, for mentioning this important subspecies of yet another beautiful North American animal:<p>
<a href="http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/sonoran_pronghorn.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/so ....<p>
Backcut,<br>
OK, point taken, I know what you are saying, generally. &nbsp;It is always ethically tricky, when sabotage as a form of civil disobedience might involve destruction of a scientific work-in-progress. &nbsp;Sometimes such destruction is justifiable, but by no means always; hopefully, activists will be able to do the hard, honest reasoning that is required if their activism is going to be truly progressive.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sonoran pronghorn<p>Thanks, Storm Dragon, for mentioning this important subspecies of yet another beautiful North American animal:<p>
<a href="http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/sonoran_pronghorn.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/so ....<p>
Backcut,<br>
OK, point taken, I know what you are saying, generally. &nbsp;It is always ethically tricky, when sabotage as a form of civil disobedience might involve destruction of a scientific work-in-progress. &nbsp;Sometimes such destruction is justifiable, but by no means always; hopefully, activists will be able to do the hard, honest reasoning that is required if their activism is going to be truly progressive.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Backcut</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:15:22 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Violence<p>Destruction of someone's work is yet another form of violence that some people seek to justify. Seeking to ruin another's way of life is also violence.<p>
Yet so many like to say their actions are non-violent. Hypocracy abounds on both sides!

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Violence<p>Destruction of someone's work is yet another form of violence that some people seek to justify. Seeking to ruin another's way of life is also violence.<p>
Yet so many like to say their actions are non-violent. Hypocracy abounds on both sides!

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:39:22 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>How about</strong></p><p>But is ruining the life's work of coal mining execs wrong? &nbsp;Or auto company CEOs who keep on making gas guzzlers?</p><p>
Depends on how it's done. &nbsp;If you make them obsolete?</p><p>
How about the masters of (oil) war? &nbsp;Making (oil) war obsolete, that has to be aok.</p><p>
And that can be done non-violently. &nbsp;With a combination of civil disobedience, political action, and trend setting.</p><p>
Is having 100 million bucks to invest in hedge funds trendy? &nbsp;Look at Hill and Bill, undone by a poor person. &nbsp;Hehey.</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>How about</strong></p><p>But is ruining the life's work of coal mining execs wrong? &nbsp;Or auto company CEOs who keep on making gas guzzlers?</p><p>
Depends on how it's done. &nbsp;If you make them obsolete?</p><p>
How about the masters of (oil) war? &nbsp;Making (oil) war obsolete, that has to be aok.</p><p>
And that can be done non-violently. &nbsp;With a combination of civil disobedience, political action, and trend setting.</p><p>
Is having 100 million bucks to invest in hedge funds trendy? &nbsp;Look at Hill and Bill, undone by a poor person. &nbsp;Hehey.</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Storm Dragon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:24:44 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>A philosophical conundrum</strong></p><p>Backcut states that "Destruction of another person's work is yet another form of violence". &nbsp;And, in most instances, &nbsp;I'm inclined to agree.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Consider this, however: Let us imagine that someone were to spraypaint graffiti on the Carnegie Library building. &nbsp;(If you don't have one of these in your home town, substitute your favorite historical edifice.) &nbsp;Is cleaning off the paint an act of violence against the graffiti artist? &nbsp;Should &nbsp; we be concerned about the cost of the paint, and the time that the painter invested in creating the graffiti? &nbsp;Or is the graffiti artist the one who's acting violently? &nbsp;Should we simply state that vandalism of a historical building is inappropriate, &nbsp;regardless of the time and money invested in said vandalism?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;I think it's entirely appropriate to ask these questions with regard to the border fence. &nbsp;This project is, (to my mind), an act of violence and vandalism against wilderness areas on the border, much worse, in its way, than graffiti tags on a historic building. &nbsp;If someone takes action to destroy a barrier fence in a sensitive area, are they meeting violence with more violence? &nbsp;Or are they simply cleaning off the graffiti, and trying to repair the damage? <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The creative impulse is a beautiful, wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it is sometimes used to very destructive ends. &nbsp;As Dave Barry once observed, "The Unabomber made finely crafted, high quality letter bombs. &nbsp;That doesn't make it right."<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;It should be remembered, also, that civil disobedience does not simply mean monkeywrenching. &nbsp;It can take many other forms.

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>A philosophical conundrum</strong></p><p>Backcut states that "Destruction of another person's work is yet another form of violence". &nbsp;And, in most instances, &nbsp;I'm inclined to agree.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Consider this, however: Let us imagine that someone were to spraypaint graffiti on the Carnegie Library building. &nbsp;(If you don't have one of these in your home town, substitute your favorite historical edifice.) &nbsp;Is cleaning off the paint an act of violence against the graffiti artist? &nbsp;Should &nbsp; we be concerned about the cost of the paint, and the time that the painter invested in creating the graffiti? &nbsp;Or is the graffiti artist the one who's acting violently? &nbsp;Should we simply state that vandalism of a historical building is inappropriate, &nbsp;regardless of the time and money invested in said vandalism?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;I think it's entirely appropriate to ask these questions with regard to the border fence. &nbsp;This project is, (to my mind), an act of violence and vandalism against wilderness areas on the border, much worse, in its way, than graffiti tags on a historic building. &nbsp;If someone takes action to destroy a barrier fence in a sensitive area, are they meeting violence with more violence? &nbsp;Or are they simply cleaning off the graffiti, and trying to repair the damage? <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The creative impulse is a beautiful, wonderful thing, but unfortunately, it is sometimes used to very destructive ends. &nbsp;As Dave Barry once observed, "The Unabomber made finely crafted, high quality letter bombs. &nbsp;That doesn't make it right."<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;It should be remembered, also, that civil disobedience does not simply mean monkeywrenching. &nbsp;It can take many other forms.

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:11:45 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>conundrums</strong></p><p>That is excellent, Storm Dragon. &nbsp;Just because a human work is accomplished by means of great scientific or artistic knowledge and creativity, that does not make it on balance "good."</p><p>
Funny you should mention the Carnegie Libraries. &nbsp;Whatever we may think of the legacy of old Andrew, as arch-industrialist and steel magnate, he certainly was a great benefactor of the arts and sciences. &nbsp;Carnegie Hall here in NYC is perhaps his best-known and appreciated gift. &nbsp;But as a dinosaurophile, I fondly remember his sponsoring some of the great paleontological discoveries of the US West. &nbsp;His museum in Pittsburgh is, I believe, the only museum in the world (and now undergoing a thrilling restoration) with not one but two large mounted sauropod skeletons, Andrew's favorite Diplodocus, and the even larger Apatosaurus louisae, named in honor of Mrs. Carnegie.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>conundrums</strong></p><p>That is excellent, Storm Dragon. &nbsp;Just because a human work is accomplished by means of great scientific or artistic knowledge and creativity, that does not make it on balance "good."</p><p>
Funny you should mention the Carnegie Libraries. &nbsp;Whatever we may think of the legacy of old Andrew, as arch-industrialist and steel magnate, he certainly was a great benefactor of the arts and sciences. &nbsp;Carnegie Hall here in NYC is perhaps his best-known and appreciated gift. &nbsp;But as a dinosaurophile, I fondly remember his sponsoring some of the great paleontological discoveries of the US West. &nbsp;His museum in Pittsburgh is, I believe, the only museum in the world (and now undergoing a thrilling restoration) with not one but two large mounted sauropod skeletons, Andrew's favorite Diplodocus, and the even larger Apatosaurus louisae, named in honor of Mrs. Carnegie.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:42:02 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Violence</strong></p><p>From the dictionary: "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something"</p><p>
Is Backcut's use of the word within this definition?. He appears to suggest that any wilful disruption of another's (professional?) activity is &nbsp;intrinsically violent. I assume this would apply however peaceful the means of disruption and however demonstrably malevolent the disrupted activity's nature or purpose. Do we accept that?</p><p>
The thesaurus puts things in a rather different light: synonyms for violence are listed as "brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness". I find it hard to associate the act of surreptitiously moving or removing surveyor's stakes with any of these words, however annoying or indeed counterproductive it might be.</p><p>
Let's not debase the language and throw around random and irrelevant charges of hypocrisy. Let's keep some perspective here.<br>


<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Violence</strong></p><p>From the dictionary: "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something"</p><p>
Is Backcut's use of the word within this definition?. He appears to suggest that any wilful disruption of another's (professional?) activity is &nbsp;intrinsically violent. I assume this would apply however peaceful the means of disruption and however demonstrably malevolent the disrupted activity's nature or purpose. Do we accept that?</p><p>
The thesaurus puts things in a rather different light: synonyms for violence are listed as "brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness". I find it hard to associate the act of surreptitiously moving or removing surveyor's stakes with any of these words, however annoying or indeed counterproductive it might be.</p><p>
Let's not debase the language and throw around random and irrelevant charges of hypocrisy. Let's keep some perspective here.<br>


<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by Backcut</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:55:50 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Harm and intent<p>What about the logger, who's work borders on art (as he is extremely conscientious and skilled), doing perfectly legal jobs on both public lands and private lands? The logger doesn't select the trees to be cut. He just removes the selected trees in the least damaging way (which he is VERY good at!) Activists would have no problem damaging equipment, tank-trapping roads and delaying operations to <strong>INTEND HARM just because the activists don't think he should cut <strong>ANY trees. <p>
That sounds like violence to me! <p>
Violence doesn't have to be limited to just the physical.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></strong></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Harm and intent<p>What about the logger, who's work borders on art (as he is extremely conscientious and skilled), doing perfectly legal jobs on both public lands and private lands? The logger doesn't select the trees to be cut. He just removes the selected trees in the least damaging way (which he is VERY good at!) Activists would have no problem damaging equipment, tank-trapping roads and delaying operations to <strong>INTEND HARM just because the activists don't think he should cut <strong>ANY trees. <p>
That sounds like violence to me! <p>
Violence doesn't have to be limited to just the physical.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></p></strong></strong></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #18 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 00:00:43 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>ocelots<p>If this wall results in fewer ocelots ranging into the SW US, the USFWS could always look here for some that could be introduced:<p>
<a href="http://www.rathergood.com/ocelot/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rathergood.com/ocelot/<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>ocelots<p>If this wall results in fewer ocelots ranging into the SW US, the USFWS could always look here for some that could be introduced:<p>
<a href="http://www.rathergood.com/ocelot/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rathergood.com/ocelot/<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #19 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:33:09 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Violence, again</strong></p><p>I am aware from your previous posts, Backcut, that you have issue with anti-logging enthusiasts who sometimes, apparently, do some rather stupid things in support of their cause. I am not particularly familiar with the issues involved but I would have a great deal of sympathy with your concerns. I am for intelligent action just as much as I am in favor of non-violent action in support of sound environmental goals. Violence against equipment is indeed still violence. But in many minds, it's a violence of a very different order: there's quite a clear distinction between violence against the logger and violence against the logger's equipment. To lump the two together suggests you hold people and their stuff in equal value. Can this be true? </p><p>
To return to the present example, do you consider the disruption of the border fencer's doubtfully 'lawful' work an equal evil to the fencer's species-threatening disruption of an essential habitat? We're hardly talking about harming a traditional way of life here: the fencers got the job yesterday and it'll be finished tomorrow.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Violence, again</strong></p><p>I am aware from your previous posts, Backcut, that you have issue with anti-logging enthusiasts who sometimes, apparently, do some rather stupid things in support of their cause. I am not particularly familiar with the issues involved but I would have a great deal of sympathy with your concerns. I am for intelligent action just as much as I am in favor of non-violent action in support of sound environmental goals. Violence against equipment is indeed still violence. But in many minds, it's a violence of a very different order: there's quite a clear distinction between violence against the logger and violence against the logger's equipment. To lump the two together suggests you hold people and their stuff in equal value. Can this be true? </p><p>
To return to the present example, do you consider the disruption of the border fencer's doubtfully 'lawful' work an equal evil to the fencer's species-threatening disruption of an essential habitat? We're hardly talking about harming a traditional way of life here: the fencers got the job yesterday and it'll be finished tomorrow.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #20 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 06:31:44 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The supreme value of nonviolence<p>ought not to be confused with a failure to perform effective civil disobedience.<p>
The great Southern white biographer of Martin Luther King, Jr., Taylor Branch, gave an address on Monday, March 31, at the National Cathedral (Episcopal) in DC, on the fortieth anniversary of MLK's last church sermon, also in the National Cathedral. &nbsp;The address, which made me weep, is excerpted among the op-eds in today's NYTimes Week in Review:<p>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/opinion/06branch.html?_r=1&amp;ref=opinion&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/opinion/06branch.html?_ ....<p>
Branch reminds us that democracy is essentially a great form of nonviolence.<p>
And he summarizes King's interpretation of the ever-moving parable of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives the Rich Man: "There is a great chasm that divides us," says Father Abraham, but that is really the creation of Dives the Rich Man, who fails to recognize Lazarus as a fellow sentient being.<p>
Building the border wall is essentially the creation of another uncrossable chasm between Heaven and Hell, and we shall find ourselves on the side which is Hell. &nbsp;The great majority of undocumented Latino immigrants are just poor people struggling to keep themselves and their families alive. &nbsp;When we mistrust and vilify them as terrorists, drug smugglers, thieves, and destroyers of society of other sorts, we treat them as Dives treated Lazarus, and we are establishing for ourselves our place in Hell, on the woeful side of the chasm.<p>
The same goes for our disregard of the interests of wild animals. &nbsp;Neither King nor Branch made the explicit reference to non-human sentient beings, but that is certainly implicit in the figure of Lazarus, who symbolizes all who are vulnerable and helpless, and who suffer through our neglect.<p>
SpaceShaper,<br>
thanks for responding so well to Backcut's particular issues. &nbsp;Backcut's complaints may be justified, for all I know -- having no real knowledge of forestry conditions in the PacNW, which is where I think Backcut lives and works, I remain agnostic -- , but it is not clear that he is using "violence" correctly. &nbsp;For that matter, I am not sure I would even go so far as you seem to go, in accepting sabotage, or "monkey-wrenching," i.e. destruction of machinery, as a form of violence. &nbsp;"To violate" is a very strong verb, and we should restrict it, and the nominal forms "violation" and "violence," to occasions of real physical harm inflicted on sentient beings.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The supreme value of nonviolence<p>ought not to be confused with a failure to perform effective civil disobedience.<p>
The great Southern white biographer of Martin Luther King, Jr., Taylor Branch, gave an address on Monday, March 31, at the National Cathedral (Episcopal) in DC, on the fortieth anniversary of MLK's last church sermon, also in the National Cathedral. &nbsp;The address, which made me weep, is excerpted among the op-eds in today's NYTimes Week in Review:<p>
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/opinion/06branch.html?_r=1&amp;ref=opinion&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/opinion/06branch.html?_ ....<p>
Branch reminds us that democracy is essentially a great form of nonviolence.<p>
And he summarizes King's interpretation of the ever-moving parable of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives the Rich Man: "There is a great chasm that divides us," says Father Abraham, but that is really the creation of Dives the Rich Man, who fails to recognize Lazarus as a fellow sentient being.<p>
Building the border wall is essentially the creation of another uncrossable chasm between Heaven and Hell, and we shall find ourselves on the side which is Hell. &nbsp;The great majority of undocumented Latino immigrants are just poor people struggling to keep themselves and their families alive. &nbsp;When we mistrust and vilify them as terrorists, drug smugglers, thieves, and destroyers of society of other sorts, we treat them as Dives treated Lazarus, and we are establishing for ourselves our place in Hell, on the woeful side of the chasm.<p>
The same goes for our disregard of the interests of wild animals. &nbsp;Neither King nor Branch made the explicit reference to non-human sentient beings, but that is certainly implicit in the figure of Lazarus, who symbolizes all who are vulnerable and helpless, and who suffer through our neglect.<p>
SpaceShaper,<br>
thanks for responding so well to Backcut's particular issues. &nbsp;Backcut's complaints may be justified, for all I know -- having no real knowledge of forestry conditions in the PacNW, which is where I think Backcut lives and works, I remain agnostic -- , but it is not clear that he is using "violence" correctly. &nbsp;For that matter, I am not sure I would even go so far as you seem to go, in accepting sabotage, or "monkey-wrenching," i.e. destruction of machinery, as a form of violence. &nbsp;"To violate" is a very strong verb, and we should restrict it, and the nominal forms "violation" and "violence," to occasions of real physical harm inflicted on sentient beings.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #21 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:25:44 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>To CC</strong></p><p>""To violate" is a very strong verb, and we should restrict it, and the nominal forms "violation" and "violence," to occasions of real physical harm inflicted on sentient beings."</p><p>
I agree.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>To CC</strong></p><p>""To violate" is a very strong verb, and we should restrict it, and the nominal forms "violation" and "violence," to occasions of real physical harm inflicted on sentient beings."</p><p>
I agree.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #22 by Backcut</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:05:13 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>An example<p>Say that <strong>your car was parked out on the street and a gang of anti-car activists come along and destroy your car, simply because it pollutes the air a little. What if they merely flattened your tires everyday? What if they sprayed "baby killer" on your car after breaking the windows? Would you feel "violated"? Would you call that "violence"?<p>
If everyone acted upon their "beliefs" (instead of facts), we'd certainly have chaos. In the example of our forests, activists are disregarding scientific facts and testimony from top ecologists, and taking matters into their own hands (and not being aware of what the flagging they are taking down is for). For them, civil disobediance is more important than the cause and resolution.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></strong></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>An example<p>Say that <strong>your car was parked out on the street and a gang of anti-car activists come along and destroy your car, simply because it pollutes the air a little. What if they merely flattened your tires everyday? What if they sprayed "baby killer" on your car after breaking the windows? Would you feel "violated"? Would you call that "violence"?<p>
If everyone acted upon their "beliefs" (instead of facts), we'd certainly have chaos. In the example of our forests, activists are disregarding scientific facts and testimony from top ecologists, and taking matters into their own hands (and not being aware of what the flagging they are taking down is for). For them, civil disobediance is more important than the cause and resolution.

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></p></strong></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #23 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:51:41 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>BC,</strong></p><p>This thread is speculating about potential modes of environmentalist response &nbsp;to fencebuilding in the desert which is being carried out with no pretense of environmental benefit, much indication of severe environmental harm, and which is unlawful to boot, i.e. not very comparable to the analogs you describe.</p><p>
However: yes, I would be annoyed at my vehicle being vandalized. But I would still consider this to be a very different kind of activist behavior than dropping a rock from an overpass as I was driving below. I'd reserve the 'violence' monicker for the latter.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>BC,</strong></p><p>This thread is speculating about potential modes of environmentalist response &nbsp;to fencebuilding in the desert which is being carried out with no pretense of environmental benefit, much indication of severe environmental harm, and which is unlawful to boot, i.e. not very comparable to the analogs you describe.</p><p>
However: yes, I would be annoyed at my vehicle being vandalized. But I would still consider this to be a very different kind of activist behavior than dropping a rock from an overpass as I was driving below. I'd reserve the 'violence' monicker for the latter.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #24 by Backcut</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:11:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/24</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sorry<p>I went out on a tangent about the violence in "non-violent" direct actions. In that same scenario about your car, suppose that your job depended on your car and you lost your job over that vandalism. Now you might start feeling like a logger feels when his equipment is vandalized. The contracting loggers are the ones in the squeeze. Activists don't discriminate against good and bad loggers.<p>
Regarding the fence, there HAS to be a way to mitigate effects in design or re-design. Will this wall lead to "sea-walls" to keep "ethnic amphibians" from invading America? I don't think a fence is going to be that effective, in the first place. Plus, we're all still waiting for the promises that the Irish would take over this country to come true, as well. <p>
<strong>smirk

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></strong></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sorry<p>I went out on a tangent about the violence in "non-violent" direct actions. In that same scenario about your car, suppose that your job depended on your car and you lost your job over that vandalism. Now you might start feeling like a logger feels when his equipment is vandalized. The contracting loggers are the ones in the squeeze. Activists don't discriminate against good and bad loggers.<p>
Regarding the fence, there HAS to be a way to mitigate effects in design or re-design. Will this wall lead to "sea-walls" to keep "ethnic amphibians" from invading America? I don't think a fence is going to be that effective, in the first place. Plus, we're all still waiting for the promises that the Irish would take over this country to come true, as well. <p>
<strong>smirk

<p>Scenic pics at <a href="http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com</a></p></strong></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #25 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:36:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/25</guid>
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				<p><strong>So what's insurance for?</strong></p><p>

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>So what's insurance for?</strong></p><p>

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #26 by Storm Dragon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 03:00:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/26</guid>
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				<p><strong>Don't be so glib about insurance....</strong></p><p>Some of us have liability-only policies. &nbsp;I'm pretty sure Uncle Sam doesn't, however.

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Don't be so glib about insurance....</strong></p><p>Some of us have liability-only policies. &nbsp;I'm pretty sure Uncle Sam doesn't, however.

<p>Let the jaguars return!</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #27 by getwork</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:15:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/what-would-edward-abbey-do/27</guid>
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				<p><strong>on &quot;civil disobedience&quot;</strong></p><p>I read a lot of the comments and stories on grist but have never posted. I simply could not resist when it came to this subject though because I am a resident in the southwest. Let me first make it clear that I am against the border fence, it is something that won't be effective and is a ridiculous solution to a "problem" that could be handled easily with discussion between our two countries ( a big reason why people come over illegally is because it is very hard to get things done on the Mexican side). However, "civil disobedience" as it is being called, moving flags and such effects more than just your intended. In construction flags mark water, sewage, and electrical lines that are underground so the crew knows not to dig there. If they happen to hit one, they wipe out power to neighborhoods, or put holes in water pipelines. I don't know for sure if these things run near the wall that they are building, but I know a friend of mine who was working down there said that he hit an electrical line (he drills holes for a living) on or near where the wall is going. Instead of just thinking about the animals (which in my opinion as well are very important to the biodiversity of the southwest) it would be prudent to find other methods of protest to this.</p><p>
I realize now that someone is going to tell me something like "electricity is not a necessity blah blah blah" but water is. </p>
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				<p><strong>on &quot;civil disobedience&quot;</strong></p><p>I read a lot of the comments and stories on grist but have never posted. I simply could not resist when it came to this subject though because I am a resident in the southwest. Let me first make it clear that I am against the border fence, it is something that won't be effective and is a ridiculous solution to a "problem" that could be handled easily with discussion between our two countries ( a big reason why people come over illegally is because it is very hard to get things done on the Mexican side). However, "civil disobedience" as it is being called, moving flags and such effects more than just your intended. In construction flags mark water, sewage, and electrical lines that are underground so the crew knows not to dig there. If they happen to hit one, they wipe out power to neighborhoods, or put holes in water pipelines. I don't know for sure if these things run near the wall that they are building, but I know a friend of mine who was working down there said that he hit an electrical line (he drills holes for a living) on or near where the wall is going. Instead of just thinking about the animals (which in my opinion as well are very important to the biodiversity of the southwest) it would be prudent to find other methods of protest to this.</p><p>
I realize now that someone is going to tell me something like "electricity is not a necessity blah blah blah" but water is. </p>
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