<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Economics of GHG reduction, part bazillion]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Earl Killian http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:43:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/1 EPA estimates $2000 billion in net benefits

To illustrate Sean's point, consider that the EPA's estimate of obeying the Supreme Court's order in Massachusetts v. EPA to enforce the Clean Air Act.  The EPA found there could be $2000 billion (i.e. $2 trillion) in "net benefit to society".

To make that even more interesting, remember that the EPA's $2 trillion estimate was based upon a 2030 gasoline price projection between $2.22 and $3.20, which seems laughable now.

The question is why the Bush White House refuses to obey a Supreme Court order to enforce the law?  Oh, I forgot, they think laws don't apply to the White House.

]]> EPA estimates $2000 billion in net benefits

To illustrate Sean's point, consider that the EPA's estimate of obeying the Supreme Court's order in Massachusetts v. EPA to enforce the Clean Air Act.  The EPA found there could be $2000 billion (i.e. $2 trillion) in "net benefit to society".

To make that even more interesting, remember that the EPA's $2 trillion estimate was based upon a 2030 gasoline price projection between $2.22 and $3.20, which seems laughable now.

The question is why the Bush White House refuses to obey a Supreme Court order to enforce the law?  Oh, I forgot, they think laws don't apply to the White House.

]]> Comment #2 by vakibs http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:11:24 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/2 Sean, let's have a moratorium on brocoli

If you don't grow enough ice-cream and insist on de-brocolification, you will have people dying of hunger.

Just make enough icecream and let people choose.

That's as far as your analogy will take us.

Cap & Trade is not an answer to the climate change question. What we need is a significant commitment to avoid all carbon. In other words, a moratorium on coal plants. The icecreams will automatically sprout when people know that coal will be shut down, and when they know that their investments will not go waste. Nobody will ever die of hunger, that way.

This is not me speaking, these are the exact words of Dr James Hansen.

So what price on carbon ? INFINITY, that's what I say. Let's make a commitment that this price will be operational 10 years from now.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Sean, let's have a moratorium on brocoli

If you don't grow enough ice-cream and insist on de-brocolification, you will have people dying of hunger.

Just make enough icecream and let people choose.

That's as far as your analogy will take us.

Cap & Trade is not an answer to the climate change question. What we need is a significant commitment to avoid all carbon. In other words, a moratorium on coal plants. The icecreams will automatically sprout when people know that coal will be shut down, and when they know that their investments will not go waste. Nobody will ever die of hunger, that way.

This is not me speaking, these are the exact words of Dr James Hansen.

So what price on carbon ? INFINITY, that's what I say. Let's make a commitment that this price will be operational 10 years from now.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Comment #3 by Sean Casten http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:24:57 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/3 Vakibs

I think you oversimplify.  Carbon-free is a nice sound-bite, but no one - not even Hansen - has a credible path to get there.  If you're using electricity, driving your car, enjoying the benefits of steel, silicon, magnesium, plastic and other products of a carbon-intensive society, you can't argue that you can get rid of carbon without first figuring out how you're going to live without those commodities.  (And bear in mind that it's hard to build the backbone of a renewable infrastructure without carbon either, since that infrastructure also requires silicon, steel and plastics.)

This isn't to suggest a fatalistic, throw up your hands and bow down before King Coal worldview.  Simply that it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest that the goal is easy, or that the path is certain.  What is certain is that we have to move, and a dogmatic No More Carbon mandate will cripple us.  So how do we get there as quickly and as cheaply as possible, while still acknowledging our lack of omniscience?  That question is an easy one: by putting a price on carbon emissions, allowing anyone who can lower carbon emissions to access that price and then getting out of the way.

Just as our Broccoli Kingdom could have benefitted from lots of non-broccoli paths other than Ice Cream, our Carbon Kingdom would benefit from a lot more paths than CCS, wind, solar and ethanol.   The world is greater than is dreamt of in our philosophies - so let's not constrain ourselves only to those philosophies we can dream of.

That said, I'm with you on the broccoli moratorium.  It is one place where Bush I and I are in complete agreement!

]]> Vakibs

I think you oversimplify.  Carbon-free is a nice sound-bite, but no one - not even Hansen - has a credible path to get there.  If you're using electricity, driving your car, enjoying the benefits of steel, silicon, magnesium, plastic and other products of a carbon-intensive society, you can't argue that you can get rid of carbon without first figuring out how you're going to live without those commodities.  (And bear in mind that it's hard to build the backbone of a renewable infrastructure without carbon either, since that infrastructure also requires silicon, steel and plastics.)

This isn't to suggest a fatalistic, throw up your hands and bow down before King Coal worldview.  Simply that it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest that the goal is easy, or that the path is certain.  What is certain is that we have to move, and a dogmatic No More Carbon mandate will cripple us.  So how do we get there as quickly and as cheaply as possible, while still acknowledging our lack of omniscience?  That question is an easy one: by putting a price on carbon emissions, allowing anyone who can lower carbon emissions to access that price and then getting out of the way.

Just as our Broccoli Kingdom could have benefitted from lots of non-broccoli paths other than Ice Cream, our Carbon Kingdom would benefit from a lot more paths than CCS, wind, solar and ethanol.   The world is greater than is dreamt of in our philosophies - so let's not constrain ourselves only to those philosophies we can dream of.

That said, I'm with you on the broccoli moratorium.  It is one place where Bush I and I are in complete agreement!

]]> Comment #4 by rsmith02 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/ Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:37:24 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/4 RGGI not so bad?

RGGI makes power generators pay for their carbon emissions and the states have limited latitude as to how they can spend the money.  It does not go into legislative general funds as far as I'm aware.

Most states are using it to deploy low-carbon technologies, primarily in the form of consumer energy efficiency programs and renewable energy subsidies.

CT- 70% proceeds for efficiency, 20%+ for renewable energy
DE- up to 65% efficiency
ME- up to 100% efficiency
MD- up to 100% efficiency
MA- 80% for efficiency
VT- 100% for efficiency

You get the idea.




]]> RGGI not so bad?

RGGI makes power generators pay for their carbon emissions and the states have limited latitude as to how they can spend the money.  It does not go into legislative general funds as far as I'm aware.

Most states are using it to deploy low-carbon technologies, primarily in the form of consumer energy efficiency programs and renewable energy subsidies.

CT- 70% proceeds for efficiency, 20%+ for renewable energy
DE- up to 65% efficiency
ME- up to 100% efficiency
MD- up to 100% efficiency
MA- 80% for efficiency
VT- 100% for efficiency

You get the idea.




]]> Comment #5 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/ Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:26:53 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/what-price-carbon1/5 The root of the problem

Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) conceded that the RGGI auction -- and specifically, the $40 million raised for the northeastern states -- will create some need for the feds to "give," once the feds pass auctions of their own.

may just be that our politicians are not that competent, or at least not competent enough to hire and listen to competent advisers.

Inslee thought he had a winner when he praised biodiesel up and down in his book and one biodiesel refinery in particular, which now appears to be going bankrupt. In the book he also danced on the grave of a politician who supposedly lost his office for being critical of biodiesel.

That refinery may also be taking about ten million dollars worth of Seattle employees' retirement funds with it (picked as a winner by Seattle's mayor).

Politicians cannot be picking our winners for us. They aren't smart enough to do that.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> The root of the problem

Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) conceded that the RGGI auction -- and specifically, the $40 million raised for the northeastern states -- will create some need for the feds to "give," once the feds pass auctions of their own.

may just be that our politicians are not that competent, or at least not competent enough to hire and listen to competent advisers.

Inslee thought he had a winner when he praised biodiesel up and down in his book and one biodiesel refinery in particular, which now appears to be going bankrupt. In the book he also danced on the grave of a politician who supposedly lost his office for being critical of biodiesel.

That refinery may also be taking about ten million dollars worth of Seattle employees' retirement funds with it (picked as a winner by Seattle's mayor).

Politicians cannot be picking our winners for us. They aren't smart enough to do that.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]>