<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
<channel>
	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Saving ourselves means trench warfare, not waiting for breakthroughs]]></title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.grist.org/rss/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
	<language>en</language>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #1 by onetwothree</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 05:27:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/1</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Per cellulosic ethanol breakthroughs</strong></p><p>I'm not sure that cellulosic ethanol is at the stage where your comment on "breakthroughs" applies.</p><p>
Humans have been making ethanol out of wood for, I believe, at least a couple of thousand years - to drink.</p><p>
Therefore, with the current price of gasoline, and the already developed processes that are being scaled up at Coskata and a few others, perhaps this is not an industry in need of breakthroughs as much as a follow through, i.e. the price of gasoline changes the breakeven point of cellulosic ethanol on the open market so these pilot project can now be scaled with a much wider margin regarding cost to market price per gallon.</p><p>
Of course, breakthroughs in regards so more efficient enzymes, etc. would help even more.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Per cellulosic ethanol breakthroughs</strong></p><p>I'm not sure that cellulosic ethanol is at the stage where your comment on "breakthroughs" applies.</p><p>
Humans have been making ethanol out of wood for, I believe, at least a couple of thousand years - to drink.</p><p>
Therefore, with the current price of gasoline, and the already developed processes that are being scaled up at Coskata and a few others, perhaps this is not an industry in need of breakthroughs as much as a follow through, i.e. the price of gasoline changes the breakeven point of cellulosic ethanol on the open market so these pilot project can now be scaled with a much wider margin regarding cost to market price per gallon.</p><p>
Of course, breakthroughs in regards so more efficient enzymes, etc. would help even more.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #2 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:08:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>uh, no<p>Humans have been making ethanol out of wood for, I believe, at least a couple of thousand years - to drink.<p>
Wood alcohol is poisonous. &nbsp;Non-suicidal humans drink grain alcohol.<p>
Yes, you can make alcohol (methanol) out of wood. &nbsp;You can even make ethanol out of wood, but it's quite a bit harder. &nbsp;That is not the question. &nbsp;The question is whether you can do so in an energy efficient fashion, at a scale sufficient to impact our fossil fuel use. &nbsp;The answer to that question at this time is "no". &nbsp;And there are reasons why that answer will likely remain the same, and the problems are not all related to the fermentation challenges. &nbsp;<a href="http://www.google.com/custom?domains=i-r-squared.blogspot.com&amp;q=cellulose+ethanol&amp;sitesearch=i-r-squared.blogspot.com&amp;sa=Google+Search&amp;client=pub-3005274409447137&amp;forid=1&amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&amp;oe=ISO-8859-1&amp;cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&amp;hl=en" rel="nofollow">More here.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>uh, no<p>Humans have been making ethanol out of wood for, I believe, at least a couple of thousand years - to drink.<p>
Wood alcohol is poisonous. &nbsp;Non-suicidal humans drink grain alcohol.<p>
Yes, you can make alcohol (methanol) out of wood. &nbsp;You can even make ethanol out of wood, but it's quite a bit harder. &nbsp;That is not the question. &nbsp;The question is whether you can do so in an energy efficient fashion, at a scale sufficient to impact our fossil fuel use. &nbsp;The answer to that question at this time is "no". &nbsp;And there are reasons why that answer will likely remain the same, and the problems are not all related to the fermentation challenges. &nbsp;<a href="http://www.google.com/custom?domains=i-r-squared.blogspot.com&amp;q=cellulose+ethanol&amp;sitesearch=i-r-squared.blogspot.com&amp;sa=Google+Search&amp;client=pub-3005274409447137&amp;forid=1&amp;ie=ISO-8859-1&amp;oe=ISO-8859-1&amp;cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&amp;hl=en" rel="nofollow">More here.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:00:59 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>It isn't just a matter of finding a cheap way to<p>break the sugar out of cellulose. Today, once you get the sugar, you feed it to microbes that pee ethanol and then &nbsp;distill the ethanol out of the waste slurry. Nothing will change in that respect. <p>
What will change is trying to get millions of tons of hay bales to a refinery. An advantage of grain is that it is compact, and shares many characteristics of a liquid fuel. It flows out of storage tanks (silos) into rail cars or trucks and then flows out of them into a processor. Hay doesn't do that. It's fluffy and bulky.<p>
Next we will flush out land issues. Will wild hay quickly be hybridized into a bloated mutant as happened to corn? Will farmers grow it on prime land instead of corn, using fertilizers and pesticides to maximize yeild? Why not just burn it instead of coal?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>It isn't just a matter of finding a cheap way to<p>break the sugar out of cellulose. Today, once you get the sugar, you feed it to microbes that pee ethanol and then &nbsp;distill the ethanol out of the waste slurry. Nothing will change in that respect. <p>
What will change is trying to get millions of tons of hay bales to a refinery. An advantage of grain is that it is compact, and shares many characteristics of a liquid fuel. It flows out of storage tanks (silos) into rail cars or trucks and then flows out of them into a processor. Hay doesn't do that. It's fluffy and bulky.<p>
Next we will flush out land issues. Will wild hay quickly be hybridized into a bloated mutant as happened to corn? Will farmers grow it on prime land instead of corn, using fertilizers and pesticides to maximize yeild? Why not just burn it instead of coal?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #4 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:18:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>About that Terra Preta....<p>shouldn't the next person say that the breakthrough he's waiting for is a cellulosic/terra preta process that both provides fuel and traps carbon?<p>
The people over at <a href="www.eprida.com" rel="nofollow">Eprida have already demonstrated that they can provide fuel and trap carbon. The process requires a small amount of input energy but that can be provided by solar or wind and the output includes bio-char and nitrate fertilizers in a slow release package. <p>
It's never going to fuel the happy motoring utopia but it will certainly feed some farm trucks and replace fossil fuel fertilizer inputs. <p>
Also bio-char used as terra preta nova has already demonstrated it yields a net caloric yield while sequestering carbon on the hoe and shovel level of agriculture. In depleted soils such as are present in Africa and <a href="http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/blackwelletal07" rel="nofollow">Australia that can make the difference between crop and no crop. <p>
This isn't fantasy or speculation but science practiced on an international co-operative level. Much of the writings regarding Terra Preta are collected <a href="http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org" rel="nofollow">here.<p>
Nobody has to wait for a miracle. Make some charcoal, grind it into grit, dig it in and plant something. I tried it, it works. If all it ever does is improve soil tilth and water retention then it's worth the effort to me. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></a></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>About that Terra Preta....<p>shouldn't the next person say that the breakthrough he's waiting for is a cellulosic/terra preta process that both provides fuel and traps carbon?<p>
The people over at <a href="www.eprida.com" rel="nofollow">Eprida have already demonstrated that they can provide fuel and trap carbon. The process requires a small amount of input energy but that can be provided by solar or wind and the output includes bio-char and nitrate fertilizers in a slow release package. <p>
It's never going to fuel the happy motoring utopia but it will certainly feed some farm trucks and replace fossil fuel fertilizer inputs. <p>
Also bio-char used as terra preta nova has already demonstrated it yields a net caloric yield while sequestering carbon on the hoe and shovel level of agriculture. In depleted soils such as are present in Africa and <a href="http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/blackwelletal07" rel="nofollow">Australia that can make the difference between crop and no crop. <p>
This isn't fantasy or speculation but science practiced on an international co-operative level. Much of the writings regarding Terra Preta are collected <a href="http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org" rel="nofollow">here.<p>
Nobody has to wait for a miracle. Make some charcoal, grind it into grit, dig it in and plant something. I tried it, it works. If all it ever does is improve soil tilth and water retention then it's worth the effort to me. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></a></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #5 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:43:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>the need for breakthroughs</strong></p><p>I entirely agree with JMG: we don't need any technological breakthroughs to do address climate change (and ecological crises generally). &nbsp;However, meeting these challenges with existing technologies will require a radical shift in the expectations and standards to which we design our infrastructure. &nbsp;Buildings, for example, are typically designed on the basis of "how can I make this good enough to meet code while doing it as cheaply as possible?". &nbsp;Even so-called "green" buildings are usually approached from this mindset. &nbsp;And this attitude infects everyone from the owners, architects, through the engineers and the contractors who actually build the thing. &nbsp;I don't have direct experience with other infrastructure industries, but I can only assume (and have some circumstantial evidence to support) that it's equally bad in e.g. the power sector, or roadbuilding, etc.</p><p>
Meeting the challenges ahead of us will require a breakthrough, a cultural and social breakthorugh. &nbsp;We're going to have to dramatically raise our standards in a short period of time, and we're going to have to act on those changed expectations. &nbsp;Which means that, for people working in the relevant industries, the ideas of "business as usual" and "code compliant" are death itself. &nbsp;These attitudes must be challenged at every opportunity, and a new vision of how we create our built environment installed in their place.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>the need for breakthroughs</strong></p><p>I entirely agree with JMG: we don't need any technological breakthroughs to do address climate change (and ecological crises generally). &nbsp;However, meeting these challenges with existing technologies will require a radical shift in the expectations and standards to which we design our infrastructure. &nbsp;Buildings, for example, are typically designed on the basis of "how can I make this good enough to meet code while doing it as cheaply as possible?". &nbsp;Even so-called "green" buildings are usually approached from this mindset. &nbsp;And this attitude infects everyone from the owners, architects, through the engineers and the contractors who actually build the thing. &nbsp;I don't have direct experience with other infrastructure industries, but I can only assume (and have some circumstantial evidence to support) that it's equally bad in e.g. the power sector, or roadbuilding, etc.</p><p>
Meeting the challenges ahead of us will require a breakthrough, a cultural and social breakthorugh. &nbsp;We're going to have to dramatically raise our standards in a short period of time, and we're going to have to act on those changed expectations. &nbsp;Which means that, for people working in the relevant industries, the ideas of "business as usual" and "code compliant" are death itself. &nbsp;These attitudes must be challenged at every opportunity, and a new vision of how we create our built environment installed in their place.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #6 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:46:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/6</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Mo' Terra Preta<p>because the OP mentioned it first that's why....<p>
Actually this is a little bit about the carbon storage potential of rangelands but the principal is the same.<br>
<a href="http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0221-soil_carbon_lovell_interview.html" rel="nofollow">Restoring soil carbon can reverse global warming, desertification and biodiversity loss<br><br>
mongabay.com_February 21, 2008<br>
<strong>Determining how much carbon dioxide (CO2) can physically be consumed from the atmosphere?<p>
As the planet has 7.8 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide in circulation for each 1 ppm of atmospheric CO2, and there are 5 billion hectares of inappropriately managed or unmanaged, desertifying savannahs on the Earth (which on empirical evidence we contend to be the case), the question that should sensibly be asked is: How much carbon dioxide would be absorbed if policies were put in place (in Australia and elsewhere) that caused the focus of on-ground management to be deliberately directed towards the widespread consumption of cyclical GHGs within the currently under-utilised savannah lands? <p>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<strong>Converting global Soil Carbon capacity to ppm of atmospheric GHGs<p>
Every 1% increase in retained SOM within the topmost 33.5 cm of the soil must capture and hold approximately 100 tonnes per hectare of atmospheric carbon dioxide (the variability in the equation being due only to the soil bulk density). We submit that under determined, appropriate management, that this is readily achievable within a very few years<br>
For each 1% increase in SOM achieved on the 5 billion hectares there will be removed 64 ppm of carbon dioxide from atmospheric circulation (500,000,000,000 tonnes CO2 / 7,800,000,000 tonnes per ppm = 64 ppm).<br>
Soil Organic Matter is the plant material released into the soil during the natural phases of plant growth. It includes root material sloughed off below the soil surface and plant litter carried into the soil by microbes, insects and rainfall<br>
Soil Carbon is the elemental carbon contained within Soil Organic Matter (SOM).<br>
One tonne of CO2 contains 12/44 units of carbon (ie 0.27 tonnes of carbon per tonne of CO2.). Therefore 27 tonnes of carbon sequesters 27/0.27 = 100 tonnes CO2 (rounded). NB Carbon atomic weight 12, oxygen atomic weight 16 ie CO2 = 12+(16+16) = 44 <br>
<br>
<strong>The global opportunity and numbers<p>
It appears that the pre-industrial level of atmospheric carbon dioxide was 280ppm, and that globally we are now at 455ppm, and heading towards 550ppm. To get from 550ppm back to 280ppm, 270ppm must be removed. Globally, a 4.2% increase in SOM would potentially reverse the expected situation. In any case, any form of determined management will substantially reduce the now crippling legacy loadings in the atmosphere.<p>
Meaning that provided the world decides that it doesn't want to destroy the majority of ecosystems we have a snowballs chance in hell of clawing back from this disaster as vs. the zero chance that prevails with the AGW "adapters," delayers, and deniers.

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></strong></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></strong></br></p></p></strong></br></br></br></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Mo' Terra Preta<p>because the OP mentioned it first that's why....<p>
Actually this is a little bit about the carbon storage potential of rangelands but the principal is the same.<br>
<a href="http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0221-soil_carbon_lovell_interview.html" rel="nofollow">Restoring soil carbon can reverse global warming, desertification and biodiversity loss<br><br>
mongabay.com_February 21, 2008<br>
<strong>Determining how much carbon dioxide (CO2) can physically be consumed from the atmosphere?<p>
As the planet has 7.8 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide in circulation for each 1 ppm of atmospheric CO2, and there are 5 billion hectares of inappropriately managed or unmanaged, desertifying savannahs on the Earth (which on empirical evidence we contend to be the case), the question that should sensibly be asked is: How much carbon dioxide would be absorbed if policies were put in place (in Australia and elsewhere) that caused the focus of on-ground management to be deliberately directed towards the widespread consumption of cyclical GHGs within the currently under-utilised savannah lands? <p>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<strong>Converting global Soil Carbon capacity to ppm of atmospheric GHGs<p>
Every 1% increase in retained SOM within the topmost 33.5 cm of the soil must capture and hold approximately 100 tonnes per hectare of atmospheric carbon dioxide (the variability in the equation being due only to the soil bulk density). We submit that under determined, appropriate management, that this is readily achievable within a very few years<br>
For each 1% increase in SOM achieved on the 5 billion hectares there will be removed 64 ppm of carbon dioxide from atmospheric circulation (500,000,000,000 tonnes CO2 / 7,800,000,000 tonnes per ppm = 64 ppm).<br>
Soil Organic Matter is the plant material released into the soil during the natural phases of plant growth. It includes root material sloughed off below the soil surface and plant litter carried into the soil by microbes, insects and rainfall<br>
Soil Carbon is the elemental carbon contained within Soil Organic Matter (SOM).<br>
One tonne of CO2 contains 12/44 units of carbon (ie 0.27 tonnes of carbon per tonne of CO2.). Therefore 27 tonnes of carbon sequesters 27/0.27 = 100 tonnes CO2 (rounded). NB Carbon atomic weight 12, oxygen atomic weight 16 ie CO2 = 12+(16+16) = 44 <br>
<br>
<strong>The global opportunity and numbers<p>
It appears that the pre-industrial level of atmospheric carbon dioxide was 280ppm, and that globally we are now at 455ppm, and heading towards 550ppm. To get from 550ppm back to 280ppm, 270ppm must be removed. Globally, a 4.2% increase in SOM would potentially reverse the expected situation. In any case, any form of determined management will substantially reduce the now crippling legacy loadings in the atmosphere.<p>
Meaning that provided the world decides that it doesn't want to destroy the majority of ecosystems we have a snowballs chance in hell of clawing back from this disaster as vs. the zero chance that prevails with the AGW "adapters," delayers, and deniers.

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></strong></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></strong></br></p></p></strong></br></br></br></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #7 by onetwothree</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:44:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/7</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>My point was missed</strong></p><p>Yes, wood alcohol is poisonous, but my understanding is that cellulosic ethanol is not. &nbsp;<br>
Not that it matters regarding the point that I was trying to make, that is simply that I don't see that breakthroughs are needed to produce cellulosic ethanol. The growth of the cellulosic market seems to be entirely dependent on the price of gas and its possible alternatives.</p><p>
Cellulosic ethanol was made in Romania during WWII when the petro industry was repeatedly bombed. &nbsp;So at some point, 3-4-5 dollar a gallon gas, or maybe if you're a skeptic 10 dollar gas, cellulosic ethanol needs no breakthroughs only efficient large scale production. </p><p>
Now you may argue that it takes too much land, it's not as pure burning as hydrogen, etc, but it has to become economically viable at some point. &nbsp;Then we can debate the environmental factors.</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>My point was missed</strong></p><p>Yes, wood alcohol is poisonous, but my understanding is that cellulosic ethanol is not. &nbsp;<br>
Not that it matters regarding the point that I was trying to make, that is simply that I don't see that breakthroughs are needed to produce cellulosic ethanol. The growth of the cellulosic market seems to be entirely dependent on the price of gas and its possible alternatives.</p><p>
Cellulosic ethanol was made in Romania during WWII when the petro industry was repeatedly bombed. &nbsp;So at some point, 3-4-5 dollar a gallon gas, or maybe if you're a skeptic 10 dollar gas, cellulosic ethanol needs no breakthroughs only efficient large scale production. </p><p>
Now you may argue that it takes too much land, it's not as pure burning as hydrogen, etc, but it has to become economically viable at some point. &nbsp;Then we can debate the environmental factors.</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #8 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:25:34 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/8</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>onetwothree<p>Why buy cellulosic at those prices when all you have to do is plow the Amazon and Cerrado under and plant cane?<p>
<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/ethanolenergy.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/ethanolenergy.jpg<p>
My point is that biofuels will consume what is left of the planet's biodiversity regardless of what they are made from. Plants convert solar energy very very slowly. Cars burn it very very fast. If American cellulosic is $4 a gallon and Brazilian cane is $2, what would you guess will be the end result?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>onetwothree<p>Why buy cellulosic at those prices when all you have to do is plow the Amazon and Cerrado under and plant cane?<p>
<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/ethanolenergy.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://home.comcast.net/~russ676/Graphics/ethanolenergy.jpg<p>
My point is that biofuels will consume what is left of the planet's biodiversity regardless of what they are made from. Plants convert solar energy very very slowly. Cars burn it very very fast. If American cellulosic is $4 a gallon and Brazilian cane is $2, what would you guess will be the end result?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #9 by stumpydoo5</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:46:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/9</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>It is utterly absurd</strong></p><p>to believe that humans can live without biofuels, gas or something, anything, to burn and propel ourselves and our goods around.</p><p>
Combustion is a basic human function, after all.</p><p>
Better to kill off all life on Earth, and to use all of our food sources to make us go! go! go! than to actually feed ourselves and our fellow people.</p><p>
biodiversivist, where are your priorities?</p><p>
ecosystems, shmecosystems.</p><p>
Fuel is dead. &nbsp;Let's get over it.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>It is utterly absurd</strong></p><p>to believe that humans can live without biofuels, gas or something, anything, to burn and propel ourselves and our goods around.</p><p>
Combustion is a basic human function, after all.</p><p>
Better to kill off all life on Earth, and to use all of our food sources to make us go! go! go! than to actually feed ourselves and our fellow people.</p><p>
biodiversivist, where are your priorities?</p><p>
ecosystems, shmecosystems.</p><p>
Fuel is dead. &nbsp;Let's get over it.</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #10 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:25:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/10</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Thank you GreenEng</strong></p><p>... for making me think that I'm not such a bad writer as to bury my point so badly as to hide it from ALL readers (although I'm hurt that your short summary probably made my point better than my long wanderings that probably do nothing but demonstrate my old-fartitude).

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Thank you GreenEng</strong></p><p>... for making me think that I'm not such a bad writer as to bury my point so badly as to hide it from ALL readers (although I'm hurt that your short summary probably made my point better than my long wanderings that probably do nothing but demonstrate my old-fartitude).

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #11 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:00:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/11</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>We've Already Had Breakthroughs</strong></p><p><br>
Solar cells at 30 percent.</p><p>
Wind farms with batteries installed in Ireland.</p><p>
Nuclear cells that can convert radiation to electricity with 40 percent efficiency.</p><p>
Ammonia solids that can capture hydrogen for lightweight storage.</p><p>
We've got breakthroughs out the wazzu!</p><p>
As noted solar cells have been around since the 1960s. </p><p>
What are we waiting for?</p><p>
How about Brown's Gas?

<p>J. Bailo
Participant
Texeme.Construct()</p></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>We've Already Had Breakthroughs</strong></p><p><br>
Solar cells at 30 percent.</p><p>
Wind farms with batteries installed in Ireland.</p><p>
Nuclear cells that can convert radiation to electricity with 40 percent efficiency.</p><p>
Ammonia solids that can capture hydrogen for lightweight storage.</p><p>
We've got breakthroughs out the wazzu!</p><p>
As noted solar cells have been around since the 1960s. </p><p>
What are we waiting for?</p><p>
How about Brown's Gas?

<p>J. Bailo
Participant
Texeme.Construct()</p></br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #12 by trock</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:06:34 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/12</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>great article</strong></p><p>JMG, <br>
You had a great article. &nbsp;What might happen sometimes is the articles are so good, complete and reasonable that there is nothing to criticize. &nbsp; Then somebody makes a post that does offer criticism and the comment posts trail after that. &nbsp; </p><p>
I had heard about Rickover (well yah, I was around when he was in the news), but it was interesting to hear how he ran the Navy's nuclear program and how to avoid the serious problems. &nbsp; If only more people would think about the planet that way. <br>
</br></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>great article</strong></p><p>JMG, <br>
You had a great article. &nbsp;What might happen sometimes is the articles are so good, complete and reasonable that there is nothing to criticize. &nbsp; Then somebody makes a post that does offer criticism and the comment posts trail after that. &nbsp; </p><p>
I had heard about Rickover (well yah, I was around when he was in the news), but it was interesting to hear how he ran the Navy's nuclear program and how to avoid the serious problems. &nbsp; If only more people would think about the planet that way. <br>
</br></br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #13 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:18:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/13</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Still thinking JMG</strong></p><p>I admire Rickover. &nbsp;His success is almost unbelievable. &nbsp;And the nuclear missle sub is the deterent that most likely made nuclear war unthinkable, even for the craziest dictators. &nbsp;His efforts, fighting the bureacracy the whole way, saved the planet.</p><p>
But then of course idiots got a hold of his reactor design and planted them all over &nbsp;the country. &nbsp;And submariners are deafening and destroying whales and other marine life with their sonar. &nbsp;Can't blame that on Rickover though.</p><p>
In fact, someone just like Rickover is needed right now. &nbsp;To push solutions through the mess o america to solve GHG climate disaster.</p><p>
As far as high school graduates running nuclear subs? &nbsp;That would take an understanding of the how the system operates. &nbsp;It's simple really. &nbsp;A radioactive boiler and a steam turbine. &nbsp;They got their nuclear engineering "degrees" on the job.</p><p>
As far as the idea that: &nbsp;'the will to believe that "all is well," the human tendency to put the best possible interpretation on every sign that might suggest trouble.' &nbsp;The idea that this is central to our climate problems? &nbsp;It would seem to be the case as far as the mass media culture.</p><p>
But for activists trying to discover the solutions ("wondertoys?", I bet Rickover heard that critique daily) it's a matter of discriminating between boobdoggles like ethanol (cellulosic, cane, corn, whatever) and real solutions like renewable electric powered transportation.</p><p>
That FLOX thing? &nbsp;For many year many people have been burning various fuels in high temperature, high pressure, oxygen rich, and oxygen free &nbsp;vessels then claiming big breakthroughs by measuring what comes out. &nbsp;So now they restrict the oxygen? &nbsp;"All will be well" they say, if you just fund our "wondertoy". &nbsp;But it's still just combustion.</p><p>
You were right in the first place though. &nbsp;No breakthroughs needed. &nbsp;Just go with what we have that has already been proven to produce the power we need without combustion or nuclear fission. </p><p>
Renewables and conservation built out on a massive scale to replace the old system. Rickover could do it, why can't we?</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Still thinking JMG</strong></p><p>I admire Rickover. &nbsp;His success is almost unbelievable. &nbsp;And the nuclear missle sub is the deterent that most likely made nuclear war unthinkable, even for the craziest dictators. &nbsp;His efforts, fighting the bureacracy the whole way, saved the planet.</p><p>
But then of course idiots got a hold of his reactor design and planted them all over &nbsp;the country. &nbsp;And submariners are deafening and destroying whales and other marine life with their sonar. &nbsp;Can't blame that on Rickover though.</p><p>
In fact, someone just like Rickover is needed right now. &nbsp;To push solutions through the mess o america to solve GHG climate disaster.</p><p>
As far as high school graduates running nuclear subs? &nbsp;That would take an understanding of the how the system operates. &nbsp;It's simple really. &nbsp;A radioactive boiler and a steam turbine. &nbsp;They got their nuclear engineering "degrees" on the job.</p><p>
As far as the idea that: &nbsp;'the will to believe that "all is well," the human tendency to put the best possible interpretation on every sign that might suggest trouble.' &nbsp;The idea that this is central to our climate problems? &nbsp;It would seem to be the case as far as the mass media culture.</p><p>
But for activists trying to discover the solutions ("wondertoys?", I bet Rickover heard that critique daily) it's a matter of discriminating between boobdoggles like ethanol (cellulosic, cane, corn, whatever) and real solutions like renewable electric powered transportation.</p><p>
That FLOX thing? &nbsp;For many year many people have been burning various fuels in high temperature, high pressure, oxygen rich, and oxygen free &nbsp;vessels then claiming big breakthroughs by measuring what comes out. &nbsp;So now they restrict the oxygen? &nbsp;"All will be well" they say, if you just fund our "wondertoy". &nbsp;But it's still just combustion.</p><p>
You were right in the first place though. &nbsp;No breakthroughs needed. &nbsp;Just go with what we have that has already been proven to produce the power we need without combustion or nuclear fission. </p><p>
Renewables and conservation built out on a massive scale to replace the old system. Rickover could do it, why can't we?</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #14 by Dragutin Dimitrijevic</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:38:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/14</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The process may depend on the location<p>The CE technology has already been proved workable but it seems to be a matter of deciding which specific process to pursue as the most efficient. That will probably depend upon the &nbsp;location of the facility and feedstock considerations (availability, local agricultural impact, unique ability to grow on marginal land, etc.). The technique best suited to a particular facility will likely be decided by geographical location and the optimum feedstock for that area.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23" rel="nofollow">Startup Says It Can Make Ethanol for $1 a Gallon, and Without Corn<p>
24 January 2008<p>
A biofuel startup in Illinois can make ethanol from just about anything organic for less than $1 per gallon, and it wouldn't interfere with food supplies, company officials said. <p>
....May Wu, an environmental scientist at Argonne National Laboratory, says Coskata's ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel even after accounting for the energy needed to produce and transport the feedstock. It also generates 7.7 times more energy than is required to produce it. Corn ethanol typically generates 1.3 times more energy than is used producing it.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/539563/?sc=rssn" rel="nofollow">New Method Rapidly Produces Low-Cost Biofuels from Wood, Grass<p>
09 Apr 2008<p>
George Huber of the University of Massachusetts Amherst....is making biofuels from cellulose, the non-edible portion of plant biomass and a major component of grasses and wood. At $10 to $30 per barrel of oil energy equivalent, cellulosic biomass is significantly cheaper than crude oil.<p>
The U.S. could potentially produce 1.3 billion dry tons of cellulosic biomass per year, which has the energy content of four billion barrels of crude oil. That's more than half of the seven billion barrels of crude oil consumed in our country each year. What's more, biomass as an energy crop could increase the national farm income by $3 to $6 billion per year.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9783810-7.html?tag=blog.4" rel="nofollow">Mascoma: Why all the different ethanol plants?<p>
24 September 2007<p>
.....That's three manufacturing facilities in three states [Tennessee, New York, Michigan] for a company that's not actually producing anything right now. These plants will also represent a drop in the bucket of America's fuel consumption. The U.S. consumes about 400 million gallons of liquid fuel a day. Mascoma's annual output from these plants is thus equal to about 40 minutes of the national daily fuel budget. <p>
Eventually, the plants will be expanded. Plans call for the Tennessee facility to grow to 10 times the 5-million-gallon level and the same applies to Michigan. Still, why build in different locations? <p>
The reason is that the company wants to experiment with different feedstocks, according to a spokesperson. The Michigan plant will concentrate on making ethanol from wood chips leftover from timber operations, while the Tennessee plant will experiment with making it out of switchgrass. Switchgrass requires little fertilizer or water. The plant in that state will be capable of consuming 170 million tons of switchgrass a day. <p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *</p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The process may depend on the location<p>The CE technology has already been proved workable but it seems to be a matter of deciding which specific process to pursue as the most efficient. That will probably depend upon the &nbsp;location of the facility and feedstock considerations (availability, local agricultural impact, unique ability to grow on marginal land, etc.). The technique best suited to a particular facility will likely be decided by geographical location and the optimum feedstock for that area.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23" rel="nofollow">Startup Says It Can Make Ethanol for $1 a Gallon, and Without Corn<p>
24 January 2008<p>
A biofuel startup in Illinois can make ethanol from just about anything organic for less than $1 per gallon, and it wouldn't interfere with food supplies, company officials said. <p>
....May Wu, an environmental scientist at Argonne National Laboratory, says Coskata's ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel even after accounting for the energy needed to produce and transport the feedstock. It also generates 7.7 times more energy than is required to produce it. Corn ethanol typically generates 1.3 times more energy than is used producing it.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/539563/?sc=rssn" rel="nofollow">New Method Rapidly Produces Low-Cost Biofuels from Wood, Grass<p>
09 Apr 2008<p>
George Huber of the University of Massachusetts Amherst....is making biofuels from cellulose, the non-edible portion of plant biomass and a major component of grasses and wood. At $10 to $30 per barrel of oil energy equivalent, cellulosic biomass is significantly cheaper than crude oil.<p>
The U.S. could potentially produce 1.3 billion dry tons of cellulosic biomass per year, which has the energy content of four billion barrels of crude oil. That's more than half of the seven billion barrels of crude oil consumed in our country each year. What's more, biomass as an energy crop could increase the national farm income by $3 to $6 billion per year.<p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<p>
<a href="http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9783810-7.html?tag=blog.4" rel="nofollow">Mascoma: Why all the different ethanol plants?<p>
24 September 2007<p>
.....That's three manufacturing facilities in three states [Tennessee, New York, Michigan] for a company that's not actually producing anything right now. These plants will also represent a drop in the bucket of America's fuel consumption. The U.S. consumes about 400 million gallons of liquid fuel a day. Mascoma's annual output from these plants is thus equal to about 40 minutes of the national daily fuel budget. <p>
Eventually, the plants will be expanded. Plans call for the Tennessee facility to grow to 10 times the 5-million-gallon level and the same applies to Michigan. Still, why build in different locations? <p>
The reason is that the company wants to experiment with different feedstocks, according to a spokesperson. The Michigan plant will concentrate on making ethanol from wood chips leftover from timber operations, while the Tennessee plant will experiment with making it out of switchgrass. Switchgrass requires little fertilizer or water. The plant in that state will be capable of consuming 170 million tons of switchgrass a day. <p>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *</p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #15 by Dragutin Dimitrijevic</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:44:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/15</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>P.S.</strong></p><p><b>....The plant in that state will be capable of consuming 170 million tons of switchgrass a day.</b> </p><p>
Ah, I don't think so. That's 1700 aircraft carrier size loads every 24 hrs.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>P.S.</strong></p><p><b>....The plant in that state will be capable of consuming 170 million tons of switchgrass a day.</b> </p><p>
Ah, I don't think so. That's 1700 aircraft carrier size loads every 24 hrs.<br>
</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #16 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:42:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/we-must-all-be-rickovers-now/16</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Same old fallacy.</strong></p><p>&nbsp;"ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel" 

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Same old fallacy.</strong></p><p>&nbsp;"ethanol produces 84 percent less greenhouse gas than fossil fuel" 

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
 </channel>
</rss>