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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for <em>Science</em>/IEA: World oil crunch looming? ]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Billhook</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:11:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/1</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Peak Oil intensifies climate destabilization.</strong></p><p>Given that only one Saudi-scale resource has been found in the last 70 years of prospecting, there is plainly no prospect of unearthing six more by 2030.<br>
Moreover, we cannot afford the unconventional liquid fuels' expansion, either financially or atmospherically or, bizarrely, in energy terms, (given their consumption of coal or gas or power as process inputs).</p><p>
The crash in oil prices from $147/bbl was mirrored in many other commodities as the scale of the looming recession became clearer, and as the margin calls on major banks positions became imperative.</p><p>
Thus it may be that the rate of oil supply in Sept '08 was the final peak, with continued depletion during the recession precluding increased supply (above 85mbbl/day) if and when economic growth restarts.<br>
Certainly there are reports from worldwide of vital oil exploration &amp; development being sharply curtailed under the $50/bbl price regime.</p><p>
A likely prospect is of a sawtooth progress of economic decline, with spurts of growth allowing oil-demand, &amp; prices, to rise to the point of stalling that growth back into recession.</p><p>
The recent drives for tar-sands, ex-rainforest biofuels, coal-to-oil, methyl hydrates, liquid hydrogen and even nuclear electricity<br>
all stem to some extent from the long-foreseen crisis of peak oil.</p><p>
Perhaps the most vicious of cycles that we face is the fact that the poorer our societies get, the less able we are to afford the orderly adoption of sustainable technologies and resource-usages that could launch a new global economy that is not reliant on the discredited doctrine of endless economic growth on a finite planet.</p><p>
Thus I have to draw attention to that fine old quip:</p><p>
"IT IS LATER THAN YOU THINK !"<br>
</br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Peak Oil intensifies climate destabilization.</strong></p><p>Given that only one Saudi-scale resource has been found in the last 70 years of prospecting, there is plainly no prospect of unearthing six more by 2030.<br>
Moreover, we cannot afford the unconventional liquid fuels' expansion, either financially or atmospherically or, bizarrely, in energy terms, (given their consumption of coal or gas or power as process inputs).</p><p>
The crash in oil prices from $147/bbl was mirrored in many other commodities as the scale of the looming recession became clearer, and as the margin calls on major banks positions became imperative.</p><p>
Thus it may be that the rate of oil supply in Sept '08 was the final peak, with continued depletion during the recession precluding increased supply (above 85mbbl/day) if and when economic growth restarts.<br>
Certainly there are reports from worldwide of vital oil exploration &amp; development being sharply curtailed under the $50/bbl price regime.</p><p>
A likely prospect is of a sawtooth progress of economic decline, with spurts of growth allowing oil-demand, &amp; prices, to rise to the point of stalling that growth back into recession.</p><p>
The recent drives for tar-sands, ex-rainforest biofuels, coal-to-oil, methyl hydrates, liquid hydrogen and even nuclear electricity<br>
all stem to some extent from the long-foreseen crisis of peak oil.</p><p>
Perhaps the most vicious of cycles that we face is the fact that the poorer our societies get, the less able we are to afford the orderly adoption of sustainable technologies and resource-usages that could launch a new global economy that is not reliant on the discredited doctrine of endless economic growth on a finite planet.</p><p>
Thus I have to draw attention to that fine old quip:</p><p>
"IT IS LATER THAN YOU THINK !"<br>
</br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:45:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Economic growth? How? <p>Can any engineer tell me how they're going to sell a project cost when the fuels cost of the project and all materials shipped could swing from $50 barrel oil to $160++ and then back down to $60 again?<p>
How do you go to a bond company and ask them to finance that? How do you buy a jumbo jet? You would have to have the cash to lock in your final energy price on the contract date and hope that there was an economy to buy your product. <p>
I'm probably wrong but I don't see where. Anybody? 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Economic growth? How? <p>Can any engineer tell me how they're going to sell a project cost when the fuels cost of the project and all materials shipped could swing from $50 barrel oil to $160++ and then back down to $60 again?<p>
How do you go to a bond company and ask them to finance that? How do you buy a jumbo jet? You would have to have the cash to lock in your final energy price on the contract date and hope that there was an economy to buy your product. <p>
I'm probably wrong but I don't see where. Anybody? 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:58:05 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Supply constraint?</strong></p><p>Only one answer, demand reduction. &nbsp;We have seen it work with this global recession, oil has stabilized.</p><p>
So work to reduce demand incrementaly year after year over the next couple of decades. &nbsp;We have the technology to do it, namely plugin hybrids. Only mass production is lacking.</p><p>
Peak oil discussions are a waste of energy. &nbsp;The mindset that obesses around peak oil is obsolete. &nbsp;Peak GHG is the important peak. &nbsp;The GHG tipping point and the recession/depression tipping point the relevant points on the fossil fuel/GHG graph. &nbsp;<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></br></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Supply constraint?</strong></p><p>Only one answer, demand reduction. &nbsp;We have seen it work with this global recession, oil has stabilized.</p><p>
So work to reduce demand incrementaly year after year over the next couple of decades. &nbsp;We have the technology to do it, namely plugin hybrids. Only mass production is lacking.</p><p>
Peak oil discussions are a waste of energy. &nbsp;The mindset that obesses around peak oil is obsolete. &nbsp;Peak GHG is the important peak. &nbsp;The GHG tipping point and the recession/depression tipping point the relevant points on the fossil fuel/GHG graph. &nbsp;<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:31:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Greenhouse still a minority concern<p>Admitted that minority includes many of the people who make all the decisions but they still have to deal with the masses. <p>
That said I still believe that replacing the heating oil market with ground-loop heat pumps is the fastest route to demand destruction in the US. <p>
In the rest of the world the Chinese-manufactured electric scooter is going to dominate city traffic. Nothing more easy and convenient has ever been built. I saw a white-haired old lady of the first order on one last Saturday and she was thrilled. If she can ride one anyone can. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Greenhouse still a minority concern<p>Admitted that minority includes many of the people who make all the decisions but they still have to deal with the masses. <p>
That said I still believe that replacing the heating oil market with ground-loop heat pumps is the fastest route to demand destruction in the US. <p>
In the rest of the world the Chinese-manufactured electric scooter is going to dominate city traffic. Nothing more easy and convenient has ever been built. I saw a white-haired old lady of the first order on one last Saturday and she was thrilled. If she can ride one anyone can. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Billhook</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:24:54 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Peak Oil intensifies climate destabilization</strong></p><p>It is somewhat ironic that, with the prospect of Peak Oil having been denied for so long, we see it now acknowledged but its discussion dismissed as "a waste of energy" with the catch-all slogan of "incremental demand reduction."</p><p>
With a post-peak decline rate of between 6% and 9% per year we face a halving of global supply over an 8 to 12 year period.<br>
That is, half the farm machinery running, half the diesel trucks &amp; trains, half the rail-freight (such as power-stations' coal), half the heating oil, half the oil-feedstocks for the plastics, chemicals &amp; pharmaceuticals industries -<br>
and half the petrol passenger-vehicles too . . . </p><p>
With recent oil-prices having burst the housing bubble and exposed the utter mess of modern global banking, it is hard to see how even basic sustainable alternatives in energy supplies &amp; technologies will be funded reliably - <br>
Have a look at what the present bust is doing for such investment plans globally . . . .</p><p>
Plainly, the displacement within the planet's richest nation of some petrol engines and some oil heaters by plug-ins &amp; ground-heat collectors will barely put a dent in the global economic destabilization that such an oil supply decline rate will cause.</p><p>
The concern which climate campaigners need to address now, not after the event, is the predictable surge of funding into "unconventional oils". Agri-biofuels &amp; coal-to-oil seem pretty foul, but just wait till Russia, Canada &amp; others wake up to the massive potential of processing their huge peatlands - while many maritime nations also begin to exploit their vast but fragile methyl hydrate reserves.</p><p>
To get an idea of the popular pressure on govt's that even a 6%/yr decline of global oil supply will generate, consider first that economic growth has been in lockstep with oil consumption for many decades. Then observe that during the USSR's great collapse, its economy was shrinking by just 5%/yr.</p><p>
For Govt's to withstand that public pressure (aka "drill, baby, drill" ?) they will need the backing of a treaty of the Atmospheric Commons that is not only as transparently simple in its structure as C&amp;C will allow, but is also as eminently fair in the allocation of developing national emission rights.</p><p>
Anything less, even if it were negotiable, would be voted out by sufficient nations' inpoverished electorates to collapse the whole treaty.</p><p>
Thus I'd suggest that PO is a very necessary subject of discussion, specifically as a subset of the equally long overdue discussion of the structure of the requisite global climate treaty.</p><p>
Regards,</p><p>
Billhook</br></br></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Peak Oil intensifies climate destabilization</strong></p><p>It is somewhat ironic that, with the prospect of Peak Oil having been denied for so long, we see it now acknowledged but its discussion dismissed as "a waste of energy" with the catch-all slogan of "incremental demand reduction."</p><p>
With a post-peak decline rate of between 6% and 9% per year we face a halving of global supply over an 8 to 12 year period.<br>
That is, half the farm machinery running, half the diesel trucks &amp; trains, half the rail-freight (such as power-stations' coal), half the heating oil, half the oil-feedstocks for the plastics, chemicals &amp; pharmaceuticals industries -<br>
and half the petrol passenger-vehicles too . . . </p><p>
With recent oil-prices having burst the housing bubble and exposed the utter mess of modern global banking, it is hard to see how even basic sustainable alternatives in energy supplies &amp; technologies will be funded reliably - <br>
Have a look at what the present bust is doing for such investment plans globally . . . .</p><p>
Plainly, the displacement within the planet's richest nation of some petrol engines and some oil heaters by plug-ins &amp; ground-heat collectors will barely put a dent in the global economic destabilization that such an oil supply decline rate will cause.</p><p>
The concern which climate campaigners need to address now, not after the event, is the predictable surge of funding into "unconventional oils". Agri-biofuels &amp; coal-to-oil seem pretty foul, but just wait till Russia, Canada &amp; others wake up to the massive potential of processing their huge peatlands - while many maritime nations also begin to exploit their vast but fragile methyl hydrate reserves.</p><p>
To get an idea of the popular pressure on govt's that even a 6%/yr decline of global oil supply will generate, consider first that economic growth has been in lockstep with oil consumption for many decades. Then observe that during the USSR's great collapse, its economy was shrinking by just 5%/yr.</p><p>
For Govt's to withstand that public pressure (aka "drill, baby, drill" ?) they will need the backing of a treaty of the Atmospheric Commons that is not only as transparently simple in its structure as C&amp;C will allow, but is also as eminently fair in the allocation of developing national emission rights.</p><p>
Anything less, even if it were negotiable, would be voted out by sufficient nations' inpoverished electorates to collapse the whole treaty.</p><p>
Thus I'd suggest that PO is a very necessary subject of discussion, specifically as a subset of the equally long overdue discussion of the structure of the requisite global climate treaty.</p><p>
Regards,</p><p>
Billhook</br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:05:48 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/wanted-six-new-saudi-arabias/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Good ... but there's more to it<p>Congratulations to Joseph for posting on the very significant IEA report. &nbsp;As far as I know, it has been neglected by the NY Times, LA Times and Washington Post.<p>
I read the "Science" article mentioned by Joseph, and, while not too bad, it is rather superficial. The problem is that oil projections are complicated and highly political. &nbsp;<p>
Very little good analysis has been done in the mainstream press. &nbsp;<p>
<a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/" rel="nofollow">The Oil Drum and <a href="http://energybulletin.net/" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin have posted a number of articles on the report, for those who want to understand what is going on beneath the surface.<p>
Here's a quick summary by Tom Whipple of ASPO-USA: <a href="http://energybulletin.net/node/47270" rel="nofollow">Edging Towards Reality<br>


<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></br></a></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Good ... but there's more to it<p>Congratulations to Joseph for posting on the very significant IEA report. &nbsp;As far as I know, it has been neglected by the NY Times, LA Times and Washington Post.<p>
I read the "Science" article mentioned by Joseph, and, while not too bad, it is rather superficial. The problem is that oil projections are complicated and highly political. &nbsp;<p>
Very little good analysis has been done in the mainstream press. &nbsp;<p>
<a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/" rel="nofollow">The Oil Drum and <a href="http://energybulletin.net/" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin have posted a number of articles on the report, for those who want to understand what is going on beneath the surface.<p>
Here's a quick summary by Tom Whipple of ASPO-USA: <a href="http://energybulletin.net/node/47270" rel="nofollow">Edging Towards Reality<br>


<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></br></a></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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