The Volt is an electric car.  

Since batteries are, at this time, expensive and heavy the Volt can't go all that far after being charged from the grid.  Few people would buy a moderately expensive car with a 40 mile range.

Therefore GM is including a fuel-powered generator so that the electric car can be recharged on the go.  

If really great batteries come to the market in the near future one could remove the genset, replace the batteries, and run off the grid exclusively.

As for the $18,000 Insight - if someone were to stick in a charger so that the batteries could be charged from the grid, how far do you think they could drive on battery power alone?  I'd bet little.

Hybrids/PHEVs/Plug-in hybrids are the best we can do at an affordable price right now.  We could all drive BEVs if battery price didn't make the car cost in excess of $50,000 (think Tesla and Whitestar).

We need more affordable batteries.

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All that said, I'm now worried about the Volt panning out.  

The guy in charge of this project, Lutz, is clearly protected from reality.  If no one is able to tell him that his "32,000 scientists" stuff is bunk then what other BS is he using in his decision processes?

GM is the smartest car company.

They realize hybrids are a transitional technology toward Hydrogen.

Once we get a critical mass of hydrogen fueling stations, we can take out the redundant "hybrid" system and put in clean fuel cell power run on H2.

Yes -- My understanding was that most hybrids like the Prius have two separate drivetrains: 1 electric and 1 gasoline, while the volt will have an electric drivetrain plus a gas generator (much like a locomotive).

This should make it, in theory, simpler and more efficient than a hybrid, if not cheaper.

That has been described to me as serial versus parallel hybrid by Gristers.

Still, it's all run on gasoline and it does require the weight of the "generator" to power the battery to run the engine.

With hydrogen a lightweight fuel and a fuel cell simply power the engine directly.

It is not "all run on gasoline".

Approximately 80% of Volt running will be done using grid power.

And without intervention by the Magic Breakthrough Fairy we aren't ever going to drive hydrogen fueled vehicles.

GM reality is that even at the double price of 40k, they won't be making them anytime soon.  This is just to get the bailout money.  Then Lutz and his fellow car salesmen get their golden parachutes.

The Audi is the near future mass produced gas saving winner.  Unless Honda made that electric transmission/motor big enough to drive on plugin battery mode?  I doubt it.

The only practical plugin hybrid so far is from Audi/VW.  Will it be affordable?  Don't know yet.

Lutz' excuse for 40k?  Twice the drive systems?  Duuuh.  

A generator from Honda on a 40 mile range electric car, twice the price of a gas guzzler?  Yeah, riiight.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

That you're confusing "electric car" and "efficient use of gasoline car".

Take the ICE out of a Volt and it will run just fine for about 40 miles.

Give it quick recharge batteries and position charging points no further than 40 miles apart on our roads and you've got a perfectly serviceable electric car that will take you anywhere.

Sure, stopping for a few minutes every 40 miles while on a long trip would be a pain.  But that's not the point.

While 'running on genset' will the Volt be more or less efficient than the Prius?  Don't know.  But if one doesn't have to buy any gas at all for 80% of their driving, can fuel with an energy source that's 5x less expensive to tap, then is it any big deal?

For those who routinely drive more than 40 miles at a stretch the Prius might be a better choice.  But the data tells us that these are exceptions, not the norm.  Remember that for every person who routinely drives long distances there must be people who rarely do.

Should we view the upcoming plug-in Prius as an electric car?  Perhaps we should.  At least for those people who use it mostly in electric mode.

To the extent that these cars operate the vast amount of time on electricity they are electric cars.  They are electric cars forced to haul around an ICE because batteries are not yet where then need to be.

I find that the designation of the Volt as an Electric Range-Extended Vehicle is a good way to describe it.  The 40-mile thing is because most people drive less than 40 miles on a roundtrip commute.  It will be a hybrid, sure, but it will be a series hybrid, which is different from the parallel hybrid Prius.

Hi, biod. You wrote:

My attempts to convince Prius drivers that you can't increase mileage by keeping in in battery mode have also failed miserably (the engine just has to run longer to charge the battery back up).

After wrecking my Honda Insight, I recently bought a 2002 Prius. I had been assuming that I'd increase my fuel economy by accelerating slowly, maximizing the time spent in electric-only mode rather than having the ICE kick in quickly to boost acceleration. Have you found this to not be the case in your later-generation Prius? Doesn't the energy captured when slowing down and applying the brakes provide plenty of charge to the battery pack under most circumstances? What driving style have you found to be most fuel efficient?

"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith

As a hybrid owner, I know maximizing economy is more complex than maximizing time on battery. However, that's an important part of the strategy, as "hypermilers" attest. Having a larger battery would help in that it would allow stronger acceleration without the ICE and would allow the charging to be optimized.

Obviously, the added losses in a series hybrid will result in a economy hit in ICE operation. However, the ability to design the ICE as a single speed optimized engine will somewhat offset this. A 40 mile range plug in series seems like a reasonable compromise at this time. The weight savings in the engine and drive train must be significant and that difference will provide a payback in electric only range, performance and economy.

That said, the Volt is a first of a kind and will undoubtably be succeeded by more efficient designs.

(if we don't get really good batteries soon) is to move to in-hub motors.

That would get rid of the 10-20% power loss by tossing the transmission and save some weight.

It's not a new idea.  There were in-hub electrics 100 years ago.  This time we have the real time processing power to make them work really well.  

...I don't think that would work. Pulse-and-glide only seems workable when you are going to be in motion for an extended period of time, particularly on the highway.

"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith

A backup battery to power all the electrical systems in the car, fans, starter, ignition, everything.  That you plugin and charge at home, so that the ICE doesn't have to generate electricity is a cheap form of plugin hybrid.

And even have the air conditioning and power steering running on an electric motor.

How much gas would this kind of system save?  

Leave the regular battery and generator in the car, but just have it dissconnected from the electrical system until the plugin battery storage is used up.

The generator and air conditioner together might take a couple hp to run.  The average hp your car runs on?  Maybe 30 if you have an economy car, that could yield maybe 7% gas savings?  Maybe more for commutes in heavy traffic where the engine is running when stuck in traffic to keep the air conditioner going.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Add a small motor to push the car along in traffic under 5 mph, on one back wheel for instance.  The ICE would stay off under 5 mph.

For traffic bound commuters this conversion might beat a Prius or Insight.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

We are in a do-it-yourself or small, local business do-it-for-you energy revolution.

Let's hope it starts a mass production energy revolution.

Those recumbant bike conversion kits manufactured in China are a good example of a transition from do-it-yourself towards mass production.  Calcars is trying to do this for car conversion.

Even with the 3 dollar per watthour power tool battery packs, would the low power plugin hybrid that merely saves accessory (fan, air conditioning and so forth) and low speed (under 5 mph traffic jam creep) gas guzzling, still have only a few year's payback in gas savings?

I don't know, I suppose someone would have to try it out in a traffic jam city commute.

Another alternative is the Firefly Oasis battery.  Still heavy lead acid, but lighter than old style lead acid, and fairly cheap.

The older style nimh power tool batteries are dropping in price too, as lithium takes over that market.  

The low power plugin conversion would not need anywhere near the storage/weight of a full plugin hybrid.  Maybe 100 pounds of nimh battery would do?  These seem to be available for around 2 dollars per watthour.

Yes, it's hard to believe how much restriction of the theoretical free market, that would allow better batteries to actually meet consumer demand, determines the course of economic history.  In WW2 companies were not allowed to "shelve" the patents they owned.

In this economic, energy, and climate crisis, every new battery technology is subject to monopoly gaming, that virtually eliminates the traditional role of human invention and innovation from solving the crisis.

If EEstore suddenly succeeds, for instance, will lithium-ion become obsolete overnight?  Would EEstore become a defense department "star wars" restricted aerial laser power source, unavailable for cars?

Maybe EEstore is based on area 51 alien technology?  Hehey.  In a secret system of military industrial monopoly gaming, who can separate fact from fiction?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin