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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Understanding offsets]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by kandimba</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:36:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/1</guid>
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				<p>The "political feasibility" argument is amazing because it says that, in order to get an environmental bill approved, we need polluter's support. So, we will end up having a completely ineffective policy, like the Waxman-Markey bill. We will destroy the planet, but at least we have polluter's support. Nice.<p>Ricardo Coelho<p><a href="http://cooltheearth.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://cooltheearth.wordpress.com/</a></p></p></p>
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				<p>The "political feasibility" argument is amazing because it says that, in order to get an environmental bill approved, we need polluter's support. So, we will end up having a completely ineffective policy, like the Waxman-Markey bill. We will destroy the planet, but at least we have polluter's support. Nice.<p>Ricardo Coelho<p><a href="http://cooltheearth.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://cooltheearth.wordpress.com/</a></p></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Gar Lipow</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:17:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/2</guid>
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				<p>To amplify what Ricardo Coelho said, yeah you lower prices by printing counterfeit carbon credits. But that is just a backdoor way of raising the cap. It is not a tradeoff for a genuinely lower cap - just a way to hide that you have raised the cap, and reduced the need for emissions cuts.</p><p>As to the argument that offsets are a good thing because they are the only way to include forestry and agriculture: if we could measure emissions changes in forestry and agriculture precisely and accurately enough to generate nice package carbon offests that are real, additional and permanent, we could include them in cap-and-trade, or charge a carbon tax against them. Why don't we? Because you can't measure carbon changes in biological systems that precisely or exactly. Given that they are dynamic systems that absorb and release carbon constantlty, both the establishing of baselines and the assurance of permanence are close to impossible. In addition there is just the precision and accuracy of day to day measurment. A lot of carbon is in the soil and in roots.&nbsp; In very small scale tests, where esssentially cost is no object we can get day to day measure plus or minus five percent by combining sattelite pictures with on-the-ground metering. On the scale needed to measure carbon in real world scale forestry and agriculture we have to depend mostly on sattelites, with scatter ground probles used to refine and tweak estimates. That means plus or minus 25%. Given that actual carbon gain or loss can be a lot less than that, and that what is in an ecosystem varies a lot depending on when the measurement is taken, this means any particular year to year number can be off by close to 100%.&nbsp; In short, offsets, or carbon charges or permits are not the right way to deal with agriculture and forestry. You need&nbsp; qualitative meansurements, the kind of thing that mostly can't be included in an emission based cap-and-trade system. What you can measure is the long term trend in terms of whether carbon is being stored or released and by a little or a lot. There are ways to regulate and/or subsdize changes in the right direction, but not by the type of division into neat little precise emission packet</p>
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				<p>To amplify what Ricardo Coelho said, yeah you lower prices by printing counterfeit carbon credits. But that is just a backdoor way of raising the cap. It is not a tradeoff for a genuinely lower cap - just a way to hide that you have raised the cap, and reduced the need for emissions cuts.</p><p>As to the argument that offsets are a good thing because they are the only way to include forestry and agriculture: if we could measure emissions changes in forestry and agriculture precisely and accurately enough to generate nice package carbon offests that are real, additional and permanent, we could include them in cap-and-trade, or charge a carbon tax against them. Why don't we? Because you can't measure carbon changes in biological systems that precisely or exactly. Given that they are dynamic systems that absorb and release carbon constantlty, both the establishing of baselines and the assurance of permanence are close to impossible. In addition there is just the precision and accuracy of day to day measurment. A lot of carbon is in the soil and in roots.&nbsp; In very small scale tests, where esssentially cost is no object we can get day to day measure plus or minus five percent by combining sattelite pictures with on-the-ground metering. On the scale needed to measure carbon in real world scale forestry and agriculture we have to depend mostly on sattelites, with scatter ground probles used to refine and tweak estimates. That means plus or minus 25%. Given that actual carbon gain or loss can be a lot less than that, and that what is in an ecosystem varies a lot depending on when the measurement is taken, this means any particular year to year number can be off by close to 100%.&nbsp; In short, offsets, or carbon charges or permits are not the right way to deal with agriculture and forestry. You need&nbsp; qualitative meansurements, the kind of thing that mostly can't be included in an emission based cap-and-trade system. What you can measure is the long term trend in terms of whether carbon is being stored or released and by a little or a lot. There are ways to regulate and/or subsdize changes in the right direction, but not by the type of division into neat little precise emission packet</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Glenn Hurowitz</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:04:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/3</guid>
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				<p>A close reading of the Waxman-Markey legislation should address most or all these concerns. You can't just get credit for conservation willy-nilly and the accreditation process doesn't just rely on satellites. Even the existing standards like VCS and CCBA require serious involvement from on-the-ground scientists and others monitoring each site to meet even the existing high-quality voluntary standards like the VCS and CCBA. That will continue. Although we are talking about large areas in this bill, we are also talking about the kinds of resources that will be able to support that on-the-ground monitoring (creating lots of jobs along the way). Perhaps most importantly, in order to get credit under the bill, international forest projects will, within a few years, only get credit if the country as a whole reduces deforestation from a fixed baseline. Based on the strict protections in the bill, other kinds of offsets will have to meet similarly strict requirements. &nbsp; Finally, if something goes wrong, the bill makes provision for reversals by reserving allowances to compensate for them. This bill represents huge advances in offset integrity and it's essential to understand the multiple protections that exist before evaluating them.&nbsp;</p>
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				<p>A close reading of the Waxman-Markey legislation should address most or all these concerns. You can't just get credit for conservation willy-nilly and the accreditation process doesn't just rely on satellites. Even the existing standards like VCS and CCBA require serious involvement from on-the-ground scientists and others monitoring each site to meet even the existing high-quality voluntary standards like the VCS and CCBA. That will continue. Although we are talking about large areas in this bill, we are also talking about the kinds of resources that will be able to support that on-the-ground monitoring (creating lots of jobs along the way). Perhaps most importantly, in order to get credit under the bill, international forest projects will, within a few years, only get credit if the country as a whole reduces deforestation from a fixed baseline. Based on the strict protections in the bill, other kinds of offsets will have to meet similarly strict requirements. &nbsp; Finally, if something goes wrong, the bill makes provision for reversals by reserving allowances to compensate for them. This bill represents huge advances in offset integrity and it's essential to understand the multiple protections that exist before evaluating them.&nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by F James Handley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:17:43 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/4</guid>
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				<p>Cheapness of fossil fuel is no virtue.&nbsp; It's&nbsp;the root cause of the climate crisis.&nbsp;<p>As Yale economist William Nordhaus explained in&nbsp;<a href="http://climatecongress.ku.dk/speakers/professorwilliamnordhaus-plenaryspeaker-11march2009.pdf/" rel="nofollow">Copenhagen:<p>"Economic participants-thousands of governments, millions of firms, billions of people, all making trillions of decisions each year - need to face realistic prices for the use of carbon if their decisions about consumption, investment, and innovation are to be appropriate... <strong>without a strong price signal, there is simply no hope for making the vast number of decisions in a remotely efficient manner...&nbsp; Raising the price of carbon is [thus] a necessary condition for implementing carbon policies in a way that will reach the multitude of decisions and decision makers over space, time, nations, and sectors."&nbsp; [Emphasis added.]<p>Cap and trade is a way to hide the price, and carbon offsets are a way to fake&nbsp;the cap.<p>A carbon tax with revenue recycled to households would do a lot more for the climate by gradually and predictably raising carbon prices giving conservation, efficiency and renewables a foothold, while explicitly making consumers who use less than average amounts of fossil fuels better off.&nbsp; Don't hide the price, recycle the revenue.&nbsp;<p>I hope Waxman-Markey is heading for the same graveyard as Lieberman-Warner.&nbsp; RIP.&nbsp; Let's start over with a simple, fair, carbon tax.&nbsp; And of course, no offsets.<p>More on revenue-neutral carbon taxes at the <a href="http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">Carbon Tax Center and the <a href="htp://www.pricecarbon.org" rel="nofollow">Price Carbon Campaign.<p>&nbsp;</p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p></a></p></p>
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				<p>Cheapness of fossil fuel is no virtue.&nbsp; It's&nbsp;the root cause of the climate crisis.&nbsp;<p>As Yale economist William Nordhaus explained in&nbsp;<a href="http://climatecongress.ku.dk/speakers/professorwilliamnordhaus-plenaryspeaker-11march2009.pdf/" rel="nofollow">Copenhagen:<p>"Economic participants-thousands of governments, millions of firms, billions of people, all making trillions of decisions each year - need to face realistic prices for the use of carbon if their decisions about consumption, investment, and innovation are to be appropriate... <strong>without a strong price signal, there is simply no hope for making the vast number of decisions in a remotely efficient manner...&nbsp; Raising the price of carbon is [thus] a necessary condition for implementing carbon policies in a way that will reach the multitude of decisions and decision makers over space, time, nations, and sectors."&nbsp; [Emphasis added.]<p>Cap and trade is a way to hide the price, and carbon offsets are a way to fake&nbsp;the cap.<p>A carbon tax with revenue recycled to households would do a lot more for the climate by gradually and predictably raising carbon prices giving conservation, efficiency and renewables a foothold, while explicitly making consumers who use less than average amounts of fossil fuels better off.&nbsp; Don't hide the price, recycle the revenue.&nbsp;<p>I hope Waxman-Markey is heading for the same graveyard as Lieberman-Warner.&nbsp; RIP.&nbsp; Let's start over with a simple, fair, carbon tax.&nbsp; And of course, no offsets.<p>More on revenue-neutral carbon taxes at the <a href="http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">Carbon Tax Center and the <a href="htp://www.pricecarbon.org" rel="nofollow">Price Carbon Campaign.<p>&nbsp;</p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p></a></p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Glenn Hurowitz</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:24:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/5</guid>
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				<p>I agree (duh!) that we need a strong carbon price to achieve the transformations we need across the economy. That's why we need to work towards the strongest possible targets we can get. But that doesn't mean we should leave low-cost ways to reduce climate pollution on the table just because they're low-cost.</p>
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				<p>I agree (duh!) that we need a strong carbon price to achieve the transformations we need across the economy. That's why we need to work towards the strongest possible targets we can get. But that doesn't mean we should leave low-cost ways to reduce climate pollution on the table just because they're low-cost.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by sveinson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:21:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/understanding-offsets/6</guid>
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				<p>The Law of Offsets is good&nbsp;- just a small&nbsp;nerdy comment.&nbsp;</p><p>It should be C=T*P&nbsp; (e.g. C=tonnes*($/tonne)) .&nbsp;</p><p>Offsets lower the Price and therefore the Cost if the Target is constant.</p>
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				<p>The Law of Offsets is good&nbsp;- just a small&nbsp;nerdy comment.&nbsp;</p><p>It should be C=T*P&nbsp; (e.g. C=tonnes*($/tonne)) .&nbsp;</p><p>Offsets lower the Price and therefore the Cost if the Target is constant.</p>
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