<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Umbra on talking about environmentalism without being preachy]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by birdboy http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:35:14 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/1 please do tell...

I can't wait to hear what we should say to these folks. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who'd drive 30 miles for a cup of coffee is not going to be influenced by anything I could say. People like this beleive that it is their right and well-deserved privilage to drive wherever, whenever, and however long they want to. And to buy the biggest, guzzling-est stinkiest SUV they can borrow money for. Furthermore, it is OUR duty, they think, to support our troops as they fight to control the oil that feeds their driving frenzy.

They have been told that global warming is a lie. They believe the war is 'liberation'. They think alternative energy is for pot-smoking hippies. The whole world exists to pleasure their every whim, and if you say different, you just hate America.

This is the big question- how can you get these people to change the way they think (or give a hoot) about their lifestyle and how it affects the world? What would you say?

]]> please do tell...

I can't wait to hear what we should say to these folks. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who'd drive 30 miles for a cup of coffee is not going to be influenced by anything I could say. People like this beleive that it is their right and well-deserved privilage to drive wherever, whenever, and however long they want to. And to buy the biggest, guzzling-est stinkiest SUV they can borrow money for. Furthermore, it is OUR duty, they think, to support our troops as they fight to control the oil that feeds their driving frenzy.

They have been told that global warming is a lie. They believe the war is 'liberation'. They think alternative energy is for pot-smoking hippies. The whole world exists to pleasure their every whim, and if you say different, you just hate America.

This is the big question- how can you get these people to change the way they think (or give a hoot) about their lifestyle and how it affects the world? What would you say?

]]> Comment #2 by redboat http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:49:37 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/2 proselytizing??

I would say don't say too much. It is always best to lead by example. Sophie answered her own question. With friends, it is best to be non-self-righteous, non-painfully-earnest, and have a just-the-right-touch-of-humor approach. If someone proselytizes to friends about anything, they risk losing those friends. But, if someone is hanging around people who drive thirty miles for takeout latte, maybe they need some new friends.

I would also avoid proselytizing at work. It creates unprofessional tension where it doesn't belong. Your right to preach ends at your work space (your cubicle boundaries??). Again, it is best to quietly lead by example. Let people come to you with questions.

"Why do you ride your bike to work?"
"What's with that fair-trade coffee you drink."
"What's THAT magazine?"
"You're doing WHAT this weekend?"
"Who are you voting for?"

When they do, be prepared to answer. It works.

An evangelical approach with people you know does not work. I have a friend at work who constantly pushes his political views on people. Nobody enjoys listening to or talking to him about anything. He hurts his own cause. It's not that people disagree with him; they just don't like things constantly being shoved in their faces by a co-worker.

However, there is a place for proselytizing in the progressive movement. It is called door-to-door election time canvassing!! -taking our message to total strangers on the streets. It works. For a great article about how to convince the masses, (not your friends), see "How To Turn Your Red State Blue" at http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2034/

"birdboy" is right. Those friends with huge SUVs are especially annoying. Nothing you can say to them can make a difference. But guess what? There is some good news on that front. America's love affair with the SUV may finally be over. If you own one, dump it while you can!! Check out:
http://rakkasan.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/15/133249/312





]]> proselytizing??

I would say don't say too much. It is always best to lead by example. Sophie answered her own question. With friends, it is best to be non-self-righteous, non-painfully-earnest, and have a just-the-right-touch-of-humor approach. If someone proselytizes to friends about anything, they risk losing those friends. But, if someone is hanging around people who drive thirty miles for takeout latte, maybe they need some new friends.

I would also avoid proselytizing at work. It creates unprofessional tension where it doesn't belong. Your right to preach ends at your work space (your cubicle boundaries??). Again, it is best to quietly lead by example. Let people come to you with questions.

"Why do you ride your bike to work?"
"What's with that fair-trade coffee you drink."
"What's THAT magazine?"
"You're doing WHAT this weekend?"
"Who are you voting for?"

When they do, be prepared to answer. It works.

An evangelical approach with people you know does not work. I have a friend at work who constantly pushes his political views on people. Nobody enjoys listening to or talking to him about anything. He hurts his own cause. It's not that people disagree with him; they just don't like things constantly being shoved in their faces by a co-worker.

However, there is a place for proselytizing in the progressive movement. It is called door-to-door election time canvassing!! -taking our message to total strangers on the streets. It works. For a great article about how to convince the masses, (not your friends), see "How To Turn Your Red State Blue" at http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2034/

"birdboy" is right. Those friends with huge SUVs are especially annoying. Nothing you can say to them can make a difference. But guess what? There is some good news on that front. America's love affair with the SUV may finally be over. If you own one, dump it while you can!! Check out:
http://rakkasan.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/15/133249/312





]]> Comment #3 by BearSpringsBlossom http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:27:02 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/3 Manners or survival?

I am born in Germany and like the very polite way the Americans behave. Americans as a group are very friendly people, but will friendliness help to give our children a safe future? The US-school system has failed to educate about the enviroment, the businesses have to look how to make money, and the government has to please the companies who give the highest donations.
In my opinion manners are less important than the survival of our children and grandchildren.
Speak up when you see Nature-destroyers, inform and educate your children and friends.
This is the only way, courage and responsibility, not modern words, but important for the next generation!


]]> Manners or survival?

I am born in Germany and like the very polite way the Americans behave. Americans as a group are very friendly people, but will friendliness help to give our children a safe future? The US-school system has failed to educate about the enviroment, the businesses have to look how to make money, and the government has to please the companies who give the highest donations.
In my opinion manners are less important than the survival of our children and grandchildren.
Speak up when you see Nature-destroyers, inform and educate your children and friends.
This is the only way, courage and responsibility, not modern words, but important for the next generation!


]]> Comment #4 by sisterschoice http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:13:28 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/4 lattes

My partner might drive thirty miles for a latte but she brings her own little espresso pot and some Peet's coffee instead. Maybe a gift idea for these folks? I realize this is a specific solution to a general problem, but in general I think example works well, or offering an alternative, rather than just saying something that can be viewed as complaining or preaching.

]]> lattes

My partner might drive thirty miles for a latte but she brings her own little espresso pot and some Peet's coffee instead. Maybe a gift idea for these folks? I realize this is a specific solution to a general problem, but in general I think example works well, or offering an alternative, rather than just saying something that can be viewed as complaining or preaching.

]]> Comment #5 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:08:51 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/5 Actions Speak Louder Than Words, But Words Count

I agree that what one does is exponentially more important than what one says, and that the best way to convince people to do something is by example.  This is especially true with one's children, as studies have shown that children follow their parents' examples, not their words.

However, I also fully agree with Peter.  There is something wrong with Americans where it is considered impolite to discuss politics in public.  This is ridiculous, and we should not be afraid to speak up.  That does not mean we have to preach to people, but we certainly should feel free to express our views.

I worked in a factory in Chicago in the mid '70s and constantly passed out essays I'd write specifically for my fellow workers.  My tone was respectful, but my message was always radical.  No one, even from the majority who disagreed with my views, reacted negatively to my doing this, and it at least gave people information to counter the ruling class and corporate propaganda that they're deluged with every day.

One should take care to only talk to people who want to discuss issues, which seems to be redboat's friend's problem (he preaches to everyone, instead of just talking to people who are interested), and not to preach but to talk to people.  You can advocate an idea or behavior without preaching.

]]> Actions Speak Louder Than Words, But Words Count

I agree that what one does is exponentially more important than what one says, and that the best way to convince people to do something is by example.  This is especially true with one's children, as studies have shown that children follow their parents' examples, not their words.

However, I also fully agree with Peter.  There is something wrong with Americans where it is considered impolite to discuss politics in public.  This is ridiculous, and we should not be afraid to speak up.  That does not mean we have to preach to people, but we certainly should feel free to express our views.

I worked in a factory in Chicago in the mid '70s and constantly passed out essays I'd write specifically for my fellow workers.  My tone was respectful, but my message was always radical.  No one, even from the majority who disagreed with my views, reacted negatively to my doing this, and it at least gave people information to counter the ruling class and corporate propaganda that they're deluged with every day.

One should take care to only talk to people who want to discuss issues, which seems to be redboat's friend's problem (he preaches to everyone, instead of just talking to people who are interested), and not to preach but to talk to people.  You can advocate an idea or behavior without preaching.

]]> Comment #6 by JTR http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Mon, 28 Mar 2005 03:21:41 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/6 Tragedy of Manners or Lack of Nerve?

You have to make a position known, if it is important to you, without worrying about how 'they' will take it!  If they are at all a friend, they will understand.  If they don't get it, they've been told, and they will start the gears turning in their little heads about what you said - yes you have made a difference!   If they hate you because of what you said, so be it, they were not who you will want to hang around with much longer anyway.
If it means something to you, tell it, don't beat around the bush, we will all be much better off with your honest comment.

]]> Tragedy of Manners or Lack of Nerve?

You have to make a position known, if it is important to you, without worrying about how 'they' will take it!  If they are at all a friend, they will understand.  If they don't get it, they've been told, and they will start the gears turning in their little heads about what you said - yes you have made a difference!   If they hate you because of what you said, so be it, they were not who you will want to hang around with much longer anyway.
If it means something to you, tell it, don't beat around the bush, we will all be much better off with your honest comment.

]]> Comment #7 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:59:54 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/7 Sounds a little too familiar.

I have noticed that many environmentalists today have a lot of the trappings of your typical bible thumper, including a heavy dose of self-righteousness and a close mindedness that rivals any you will see with any subgroup. Just try to have a rational discussion with your stereotypical vegan, animal activist, garbage sorting, environmentalist and see what happens. Altering what we eat, wear, and recycle will not save the planet's biodiversity, not with nine billion of us on the planet. It is going to take much more than that. Look at what has happened to India's and China's ecosystems. They have lifestyles that make a grist staffer look like royalty. It will however, distract you from doing anything really meaningful. Adhering to the proper mantra will give you admittance to a click that preaches to itself and reads selectively to reinforce its ideals, just like any religion. And, like any religion, they will not take kindly to some atheist in the front pew critiquing the preacher. Although, not intended, this article was almost a comical parity of itself and so were many of the comments it elicited. No wonder so many are opting not to associate with those of us who call ourselves environmentalists. I am about ready to divorce myself from that name in order to distance myself from the stereotypes that have taken it over. http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Sounds a little too familiar.

I have noticed that many environmentalists today have a lot of the trappings of your typical bible thumper, including a heavy dose of self-righteousness and a close mindedness that rivals any you will see with any subgroup. Just try to have a rational discussion with your stereotypical vegan, animal activist, garbage sorting, environmentalist and see what happens. Altering what we eat, wear, and recycle will not save the planet's biodiversity, not with nine billion of us on the planet. It is going to take much more than that. Look at what has happened to India's and China's ecosystems. They have lifestyles that make a grist staffer look like royalty. It will however, distract you from doing anything really meaningful. Adhering to the proper mantra will give you admittance to a click that preaches to itself and reads selectively to reinforce its ideals, just like any religion. And, like any religion, they will not take kindly to some atheist in the front pew critiquing the preacher. Although, not intended, this article was almost a comical parity of itself and so were many of the comments it elicited. No wonder so many are opting not to associate with those of us who call ourselves environmentalists. I am about ready to divorce myself from that name in order to distance myself from the stereotypes that have taken it over. http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Comment #8 by SpiritofPlace http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/ Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:42:33 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/umbra-manners/8 Preaching to the choir

I was just pondering this very thing. Post is old from 2005 but issue remains personal and relevant to many who are still trying to "evangelize" environmental responsibility without being too heavy handed and well --obnoxious. It's a thin line. I also use the word evangelize because even religion is in the environmental mix, a moral imperative, a serious call and consideration to heed among believers. Thanks for the suggestions funny and otherwise. I'm still working on MY script :)Back in 2007, it was still too earnest, too too and it wasn't convincing anyone but the choir...(see post to see how badly I needed help:S)

Thanks again as always for providing some of the help and all of the laughs :)

]]> Preaching to the choir

I was just pondering this very thing. Post is old from 2005 but issue remains personal and relevant to many who are still trying to "evangelize" environmental responsibility without being too heavy handed and well --obnoxious. It's a thin line. I also use the word evangelize because even religion is in the environmental mix, a moral imperative, a serious call and consideration to heed among believers. Thanks for the suggestions funny and otherwise. I'm still working on MY script :)Back in 2007, it was still too earnest, too too and it wasn't convincing anyone but the choir...(see post to see how badly I needed help:S)

Thanks again as always for providing some of the help and all of the laughs :)

]]>