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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Thoughts on the farm bill and the skyrocketing cost of food]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:25:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>A BTU is a BTU is a BTU</strong></p><p>Bottom line is that farmers control the use of two finite -- very finite -- resources: land and water (access to sun comes with the land). &nbsp;Once they accepted the apple from Satan and started using those to make food for machines instead of food for people, they started us down the road to where a calorie is a calorie is a calorie, whether it's in the form of food, natural gas (fertilizer) or ethanol/biodiesel (motor fuel). &nbsp;</p><p>
Corporate farmers care little or nothing for the use to which their crop is put -- their job is to minimize the costs of the inputs and maximize the return on sales, ignoring the long-term health of the soil (which is artificially juiced with petrofertilizers).</p><p>
So they pit the stomachs against the fuel tanks and chase the subsidies, which they feed back to Congress to ensure further subsidies, an unholy alliance that is starving people to death. &nbsp;That's what farm policy is to day.

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>A BTU is a BTU is a BTU</strong></p><p>Bottom line is that farmers control the use of two finite -- very finite -- resources: land and water (access to sun comes with the land). &nbsp;Once they accepted the apple from Satan and started using those to make food for machines instead of food for people, they started us down the road to where a calorie is a calorie is a calorie, whether it's in the form of food, natural gas (fertilizer) or ethanol/biodiesel (motor fuel). &nbsp;</p><p>
Corporate farmers care little or nothing for the use to which their crop is put -- their job is to minimize the costs of the inputs and maximize the return on sales, ignoring the long-term health of the soil (which is artificially juiced with petrofertilizers).</p><p>
So they pit the stomachs against the fuel tanks and chase the subsidies, which they feed back to Congress to ensure further subsidies, an unholy alliance that is starving people to death. &nbsp;That's what farm policy is to day.

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:31:16 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hmmm</strong></p><p>"In one report by an industry group, oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1 -- than ethanol."</p><p>
Was that an ethanol industry group or an agribizz industry group? &nbsp;</p><p>
Is that for processed food? &nbsp;Ethanol would seem to be the major cause of commodity grain price rise. &nbsp;</p><p>
Natural gas prices effect fertilizer, but why did ammonia prices rise so fast? &nbsp;Corn for ethanol increased ammonia fertilizer demand. &nbsp;That in turn made natural gas rise. &nbsp;Now ammonia is shipped on tankers from Russia, where it is made from their cheaper natural gas. </p><p>
Do chemicals (herbicides, pesticides) rising in cost because of higher oil really constitute a large enough portion of farm costs to account for a 2 to 1 ratio? &nbsp;That is doubtfull. &nbsp;These are value added petroleum products, unlike gasoline or diesel, their price is not as greatly effected by the price of the oil feedstock.</p><p>
And those who are rioting because they are about to starve, eat commodity grain. &nbsp;They grind and cook it themselves, no oil input needed.</p><p>
For them it really is food or biofuel. &nbsp;The biofuel for our gas guzzlers, they can't afford cars.</p><p>
I suspect industry self serving it's own interests might have contributed to that finding of a 2 to 1 ratio. &nbsp;People are rioting because of ethanol. &nbsp;You said it yourself, we are the bread (grain) basket.</p><p>
Your Farm and Food Policy Project looks great Alan. &nbsp;I would like to see if you have considered farm biogas, wind, and solar energy projects in farm policy?</p><p>
Ag and energy policy seems to be coming together. &nbsp;Why can't our farms get the cash we are now sending offshore to buy oil by going to a renewable smart grid charging plugin hybrid vehicles? &nbsp;Farm biogas, unlike ethanol, really does vastly reduce GHG.</p><p>
It also provides organic fertilizer from the biodigestion of manure and biomass crop waste. Saving huge costs and GHG from the use of ammonia and mined fertilizer. &nbsp;</p><p>
Manure and fertilizer &nbsp;run off releases huge amounts of methane, a 21 times worse GHG than cO2. &nbsp;Biodigestion and organic fertilizer prevents that run off. &nbsp;</p><p>
In Sweden they are powering trains with methane, the energy ingredient in biogas. &nbsp;Trains are 8 times more efficient in moving freight than oil powered trucks.</p><p>
Farmers could get energy income, providing us all with power, and subsidies could be greatly reduced that way as fertilizer costs came down. &nbsp;Tractors can run on biogas too.</p><p>
I would like to see subsidies diverted from energy status quo industries like coal, nuclear, and ethanol to provide direct per kwh subsidies to farmers who invest in farm biogas power generation, wind farms, and solar power.</p><p>
A tax neutral farm/energy policy. &nbsp;That would provide stable, storable biogas power to backup a renewable smart grid. &nbsp;The power we need is there. &nbsp;And it will vastly reduce GHG. &nbsp;And revive the farm and manufacturing sector economies.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Hmmm</strong></p><p>"In one report by an industry group, oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1 -- than ethanol."</p><p>
Was that an ethanol industry group or an agribizz industry group? &nbsp;</p><p>
Is that for processed food? &nbsp;Ethanol would seem to be the major cause of commodity grain price rise. &nbsp;</p><p>
Natural gas prices effect fertilizer, but why did ammonia prices rise so fast? &nbsp;Corn for ethanol increased ammonia fertilizer demand. &nbsp;That in turn made natural gas rise. &nbsp;Now ammonia is shipped on tankers from Russia, where it is made from their cheaper natural gas. </p><p>
Do chemicals (herbicides, pesticides) rising in cost because of higher oil really constitute a large enough portion of farm costs to account for a 2 to 1 ratio? &nbsp;That is doubtfull. &nbsp;These are value added petroleum products, unlike gasoline or diesel, their price is not as greatly effected by the price of the oil feedstock.</p><p>
And those who are rioting because they are about to starve, eat commodity grain. &nbsp;They grind and cook it themselves, no oil input needed.</p><p>
For them it really is food or biofuel. &nbsp;The biofuel for our gas guzzlers, they can't afford cars.</p><p>
I suspect industry self serving it's own interests might have contributed to that finding of a 2 to 1 ratio. &nbsp;People are rioting because of ethanol. &nbsp;You said it yourself, we are the bread (grain) basket.</p><p>
Your Farm and Food Policy Project looks great Alan. &nbsp;I would like to see if you have considered farm biogas, wind, and solar energy projects in farm policy?</p><p>
Ag and energy policy seems to be coming together. &nbsp;Why can't our farms get the cash we are now sending offshore to buy oil by going to a renewable smart grid charging plugin hybrid vehicles? &nbsp;Farm biogas, unlike ethanol, really does vastly reduce GHG.</p><p>
It also provides organic fertilizer from the biodigestion of manure and biomass crop waste. Saving huge costs and GHG from the use of ammonia and mined fertilizer. &nbsp;</p><p>
Manure and fertilizer &nbsp;run off releases huge amounts of methane, a 21 times worse GHG than cO2. &nbsp;Biodigestion and organic fertilizer prevents that run off. &nbsp;</p><p>
In Sweden they are powering trains with methane, the energy ingredient in biogas. &nbsp;Trains are 8 times more efficient in moving freight than oil powered trucks.</p><p>
Farmers could get energy income, providing us all with power, and subsidies could be greatly reduced that way as fertilizer costs came down. &nbsp;Tractors can run on biogas too.</p><p>
I would like to see subsidies diverted from energy status quo industries like coal, nuclear, and ethanol to provide direct per kwh subsidies to farmers who invest in farm biogas power generation, wind farms, and solar power.</p><p>
A tax neutral farm/energy policy. &nbsp;That would provide stable, storable biogas power to backup a renewable smart grid. &nbsp;The power we need is there. &nbsp;And it will vastly reduce GHG. &nbsp;And revive the farm and manufacturing sector economies.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:49:50 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Non-sequitur<p>Alan Hunt writes:<p>
And don't forget that free-market proponents have long argued for making agriculture a more market-based sector. The ethanol market has single-handedly reduced government expenditures on farm subsidy programs by a projected $15 billion over the next five years. The market approach is not wrong, but is it the right approach to ensure that no one goes hungry?<p>
First of all, no ... and I mean zero ... "free-market proponent" (I assume that is short-hand for "liberal economist") that I know, and I know plenty, has ever supported the creation of a subsidized and mandated market for fuel ethanol. <p>
Second, the rising prices of grains and oilseeds -- which the biofuels industry wants to take credit for, but at the same time deny that it is having ANY discernable impact on food prices -- has indeed, for the moment, reduced those crop subsidies that are triggered by low prices. But what is forgotten in the equation is how much is being paid out in subsidies to biofuels, which the noted energy-subsidy analyst, Doug Koplow <a href="http://www.globalsubsidies.org/article.php3?id_article=40&amp;var_mode=calcul" rel="nofollow">has estimated were already in the neighbourhood of $8 billion per year in 2007, and with further expansion of output could amount to $92 billion over the seven-year, 2006-2012 period.<p>
Finally, Hunt's comment that, "The market approach is not wrong, but is it the right approach to ensure that no one goes hungry?", is an intriguing one, given that, with the exception of New Zealand, "the market approach" has been as alien to farm policy in the industrialized economies (and most developing economies) as a walrus in Kansas.

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Non-sequitur<p>Alan Hunt writes:<p>
And don't forget that free-market proponents have long argued for making agriculture a more market-based sector. The ethanol market has single-handedly reduced government expenditures on farm subsidy programs by a projected $15 billion over the next five years. The market approach is not wrong, but is it the right approach to ensure that no one goes hungry?<p>
First of all, no ... and I mean zero ... "free-market proponent" (I assume that is short-hand for "liberal economist") that I know, and I know plenty, has ever supported the creation of a subsidized and mandated market for fuel ethanol. <p>
Second, the rising prices of grains and oilseeds -- which the biofuels industry wants to take credit for, but at the same time deny that it is having ANY discernable impact on food prices -- has indeed, for the moment, reduced those crop subsidies that are triggered by low prices. But what is forgotten in the equation is how much is being paid out in subsidies to biofuels, which the noted energy-subsidy analyst, Doug Koplow <a href="http://www.globalsubsidies.org/article.php3?id_article=40&amp;var_mode=calcul" rel="nofollow">has estimated were already in the neighbourhood of $8 billion per year in 2007, and with further expansion of output could amount to $92 billion over the seven-year, 2006-2012 period.<p>
Finally, Hunt's comment that, "The market approach is not wrong, but is it the right approach to ensure that no one goes hungry?", is an intriguing one, given that, with the exception of New Zealand, "the market approach" has been as alien to farm policy in the industrialized economies (and most developing economies) as a walrus in Kansas.

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by ahunt</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:15:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Link to Ethanol and Food Price Report; other info<p>The report I mention about ethanol's impact on final retail food prices relative to rising oil costs is available <a href="http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/1157/food_price_analysis_-_urbanchuk.pdf" rel="nofollow">here and is from the Renewable Fuels Association. &nbsp;I found surprisingly little research on the topic, and I agree it is definitely worthwhile to question the source and the research methods.<p>
Also, the key thing to remember here is that on average, a farmer selling into a commodity market retains only 19 cents per <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodMarketingSystem/pricespreads.htm" rel="nofollow">retail food dollar. &nbsp;Rising corn prices, especially for sectors which use corn for animal feed, like livestock and dairy (note: cows are ruminants and evolved eating grass), will have the highest direct impacts from ethanol. &nbsp;But the other 81 cents of the retail food dollar comes from <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/CPIFoodAndExpenditures/howchangesininputcostsaffectfoodprices.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">food<br>
distribution and marketing costs. &nbsp;At least 18 cents of those food distribution and marketing costs (about equal to the farmer's share), will have direct energy costs from energy, transportation, packaging, and overhead.<p>
<a href="mms://ocbmtcwmp.usda.gov/content/bmtc/vnr/rising1.wmv" rel="nofollow">USDA has a two minute video on the topic.<p>
<a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1244218" rel="nofollow">This is not a new trend, but why we notice this now is because the demand for grains for ethanol has finally translated into <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/CPIFoodAndExpenditures/howchangesininputcostsaffectfoodprices.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">food inflation especially in sectors using corn for feed, and the price of oil has increased at the same time.<p>
While I too may question the RFA's exact findings, the much more important issue is that nearly 20% of the price of food is susceptible to energy price spikes. &nbsp;That is not a very sustainable, nor equitable system.<p>
-Alan Hunt</p></p></a></a></p></a></p></br></a></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Link to Ethanol and Food Price Report; other info<p>The report I mention about ethanol's impact on final retail food prices relative to rising oil costs is available <a href="http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/1157/food_price_analysis_-_urbanchuk.pdf" rel="nofollow">here and is from the Renewable Fuels Association. &nbsp;I found surprisingly little research on the topic, and I agree it is definitely worthwhile to question the source and the research methods.<p>
Also, the key thing to remember here is that on average, a farmer selling into a commodity market retains only 19 cents per <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodMarketingSystem/pricespreads.htm" rel="nofollow">retail food dollar. &nbsp;Rising corn prices, especially for sectors which use corn for animal feed, like livestock and dairy (note: cows are ruminants and evolved eating grass), will have the highest direct impacts from ethanol. &nbsp;But the other 81 cents of the retail food dollar comes from <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/CPIFoodAndExpenditures/howchangesininputcostsaffectfoodprices.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">food<br>
distribution and marketing costs. &nbsp;At least 18 cents of those food distribution and marketing costs (about equal to the farmer's share), will have direct energy costs from energy, transportation, packaging, and overhead.<p>
<a href="mms://ocbmtcwmp.usda.gov/content/bmtc/vnr/rising1.wmv" rel="nofollow">USDA has a two minute video on the topic.<p>
<a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1244218" rel="nofollow">This is not a new trend, but why we notice this now is because the demand for grains for ethanol has finally translated into <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/CPIFoodAndExpenditures/howchangesininputcostsaffectfoodprices.htm" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">food inflation especially in sectors using corn for feed, and the price of oil has increased at the same time.<p>
While I too may question the RFA's exact findings, the much more important issue is that nearly 20% of the price of food is susceptible to energy price spikes. &nbsp;That is not a very sustainable, nor equitable system.<p>
-Alan Hunt</p></p></a></a></p></a></p></br></a></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:25:08 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Point missing Alan</strong></p><p>People are literally starving so wealthy nations can guzzle ethanol. &nbsp;Ethanol actually doubles GHG emissions compared to oil based fuels.</p><p>
This is an emergency, a starvation emergency and a GHG emergency. &nbsp;Ethanol farming must stop.</p><p>
It's not just a question of "sustainability", whatever that very vague term might mean.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Point missing Alan</strong></p><p>People are literally starving so wealthy nations can guzzle ethanol. &nbsp;Ethanol actually doubles GHG emissions compared to oil based fuels.</p><p>
This is an emergency, a starvation emergency and a GHG emergency. &nbsp;Ethanol farming must stop.</p><p>
It's not just a question of "sustainability", whatever that very vague term might mean.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:37:48 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Let's not forget effects on the rest of the world</strong></p><p><strong>In the United States</strong>, "the other 81 cents of the retail food dollar comes from food distribution and marketing costs."</p><p>
In poor countries, where the people tend to eat products that are much less processed (corn meal, bread, rice), the basic price of the commodity accounts for a much higher share of the food item purchased by final consumers. And the share of food in their budget is typically 50% or more, not 10% like it is (on average) in the United States.

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Let's not forget effects on the rest of the world</strong></p><p><strong>In the United States</strong>, "the other 81 cents of the retail food dollar comes from food distribution and marketing costs."</p><p>
In poor countries, where the people tend to eat products that are much less processed (corn meal, bread, rice), the basic price of the commodity accounts for a much higher share of the food item purchased by final consumers. And the share of food in their budget is typically 50% or more, not 10% like it is (on average) in the United States.

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:19:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Yep Ron</strong></p><p>My point exactly. &nbsp;People who depend on commodity corn and grain to survive are competing directly against the highly subsidized ethanol industry for food. &nbsp;</p><p>
For them it's food or fuel farming. &nbsp;These food riots and mass starvation tell us that the poorest of the poor are losing the "free" market battle.</p><p>
Gas guzzler agribizz industries are winning.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Yep Ron</strong></p><p>My point exactly. &nbsp;People who depend on commodity corn and grain to survive are competing directly against the highly subsidized ethanol industry for food. &nbsp;</p><p>
For them it's food or fuel farming. &nbsp;These food riots and mass starvation tell us that the poorest of the poor are losing the "free" market battle.</p><p>
Gas guzzler agribizz industries are winning.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:32:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Not free!<p>Dr. X, I appreciate your agreeing with me, but it is silly to refer to the battle between fuel and food as "free". If other consumers of grains and oilseeds were competing on a level playing field with producers of biofuels, that would be one thing. Food consumers might at least have a chance of out-bidding the biofuel producers. But biofuel producers have been given a government-guaranteed market, through mandated consumption levels, which means that until the mandate is fulfilled, there is theoretically no limit on the price that the blenders will pay for the biofuel, and thus the biofuel producers for feedstock crops.<p>
Please see <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/4/21/13387/4610/#comment7" rel="nofollow">my comment over on Tom Philpott's article, "Please, sir, I want some GMOs".

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Not free!<p>Dr. X, I appreciate your agreeing with me, but it is silly to refer to the battle between fuel and food as "free". If other consumers of grains and oilseeds were competing on a level playing field with producers of biofuels, that would be one thing. Food consumers might at least have a chance of out-bidding the biofuel producers. But biofuel producers have been given a government-guaranteed market, through mandated consumption levels, which means that until the mandate is fulfilled, there is theoretically no limit on the price that the blenders will pay for the biofuel, and thus the biofuel producers for feedstock crops.<p>
Please see <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/4/21/13387/4610/#comment7" rel="nofollow">my comment over on Tom Philpott's article, "Please, sir, I want some GMOs".

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:04:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>The variability issues with agriculture...<p>are overblown. Just because farming is subject to natural variation doesn't mean the government has to interfere. That's what crop insurance and futures markets are for. Every industry these days is subject to growing competition and uncertainty is par for the course; no reason to subsidize farmers. It's simply corporate welfare that is destructive to the environment and wastes for in tax money than it saves people on grocery bills.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The variability issues with agriculture...<p>are overblown. Just because farming is subject to natural variation doesn't mean the government has to interfere. That's what crop insurance and futures markets are for. Every industry these days is subject to growing competition and uncertainty is par for the course; no reason to subsidize farmers. It's simply corporate welfare that is destructive to the environment and wastes for in tax money than it saves people on grocery bills.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:16:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Stretching the definition of a &quot;market&quot;<p>The ethanol market has single-handedly reduced government expenditures on farm subsidy programs by a projected $15 billion over the next five years.<p>
It is always good to provide links for readers to give them the confidence that your quoted numbers are valid. If that projection does not account for the blenders credit, then we would subtract from that figure the $18 billion ethanol blenders will get in direct subsidies in the next five years, not counting the various state subsidies. I'm assuming it doesn't because you didn't say otherwise and didn't provide a link.<p>
There are markets for cell phones, Priuses, computers, you name it because consumers want them and producers compete among themselves to meet that demand. This use of the word "market" when talking about ethanol subsidies is actually quite misleading. It has become a euphemism for mandate.<p>
There is a market "mandate" for it. The government has mandated its use and pays blenders 51 cents a gallon to put it in the gas that consumers have no option but to buy back, having already subsidized it with their tax dollars.<p>
Other than a handful of patriots who have been convinced that they are enhancing national security by increasing our fuel supply a percent or two, very few would want ethanol.<p>
Here is <a href="http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2006/ethanol-10-06/overview/1006_ethanol_ov1_1.htm" rel="nofollow">consumer reports evaluation of this fuel.<p>
I realize your post was about food, but we also need to keep in mind the impact found in the most recent studies on green house gases these crops are having via carbon sink displacement and nitrogen oxide emissions.<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Stretching the definition of a &quot;market&quot;<p>The ethanol market has single-handedly reduced government expenditures on farm subsidy programs by a projected $15 billion over the next five years.<p>
It is always good to provide links for readers to give them the confidence that your quoted numbers are valid. If that projection does not account for the blenders credit, then we would subtract from that figure the $18 billion ethanol blenders will get in direct subsidies in the next five years, not counting the various state subsidies. I'm assuming it doesn't because you didn't say otherwise and didn't provide a link.<p>
There are markets for cell phones, Priuses, computers, you name it because consumers want them and producers compete among themselves to meet that demand. This use of the word "market" when talking about ethanol subsidies is actually quite misleading. It has become a euphemism for mandate.<p>
There is a market "mandate" for it. The government has mandated its use and pays blenders 51 cents a gallon to put it in the gas that consumers have no option but to buy back, having already subsidized it with their tax dollars.<p>
Other than a handful of patriots who have been convinced that they are enhancing national security by increasing our fuel supply a percent or two, very few would want ethanol.<p>
Here is <a href="http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2006/ethanol-10-06/overview/1006_ethanol_ov1_1.htm" rel="nofollow">consumer reports evaluation of this fuel.<p>
I realize your post was about food, but we also need to keep in mind the impact found in the most recent studies on green house gases these crops are having via carbon sink displacement and nitrogen oxide emissions.<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:20:50 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>I agree (again)Ron</strong></p><p>I say "free" markets, with tongue in cheek. &nbsp;Hehey. &nbsp;Like "clean" coal. &nbsp;Or Bush, "commander" in chief. &nbsp;</p><p>
It's in that vein. &nbsp;A rich one, mining the irony of modern mass delusion.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>I agree (again)Ron</strong></p><p>I say "free" markets, with tongue in cheek. &nbsp;Hehey. &nbsp;Like "clean" coal. &nbsp;Or Bush, "commander" in chief. &nbsp;</p><p>
It's in that vein. &nbsp;A rich one, mining the irony of modern mass delusion.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:05:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/thinking-outside-the-cereal-box/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>More quibbles<p>It is true that demand for grains in ethanol production has diverted surpluses to energy use. In one report by an industry group, oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1 -- than ethanol. The real catch-22 though is that two primary ingredients of our economy, food and fuel, are linked together.<p>
Thanks for the link to that paper commissioned by that industry group (<a href="http://www.ethanolrfa.org/about/philosophy" rel="nofollow">The Renewable Fuels Association).<p>
The study assumed a $1 increase in a gallon of gas and a $1 increase in a bushel of corn. The study was framed in such a way as to show oil having a bigger impact than corn.<p>
They didn't account for the fact that the price of corn has increased much faster than the price of oil in the last year. Although it is true that gas has increased $1 per gallon from one year ago, corn has increased $2.5 per bushel in that same time frame (presently selling for $6 a bushel).. I reframed the study to show that because corn has increased in price so much faster than oil, that it has had a bigger impact than oil. <p>
From the study:<p>
0.6 %to 0.9 %increase in food costs caused by oil price increase of $1. Average =0.75%<br>
0.3 % increase in food price caused by an increase of $1 in bushel of corn.<p>
If you assume that the present food spike is the result of price increases seen in the last year or so:<p>
Actual increase in price of oil from one year ago = $1<br>
Actual increase in bushel of corn = $3.5<p>
0.3% x 3.5 = 1.05%<p>
So, now instead of "oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1" you have corn making 1.4 times more impact than oil.<p>
There are many ways to bias a study. I'm not insinuating that this researcher lied. I'm pointing out how easy it is to reframe data to reflect either an intentional or subconscious bias. Bias is inherent in all studies and that is what the scientific method is all about. This paper just got its first critique.<p>
Quoting a study commissioned by an organization that butters its bread with ethanol is tantamount to quoting a study commissioned by a coal company that denies global warming.<p>
The paper was written by <a href="http://www.lecg.com/website/LWBios.nsf/OpenPage/JohnM.Urbanchuk" rel="nofollow">this guy, who works for <a href="http://www.lecg.com/website/home.nsf/OpenPage/AboutLECG" rel="nofollow">this company. Anyone can hire this company's experts to write papers for them, and trust me, if the papers you write don't support your clients, you won't be writing any more papers for them:<p>
John [Urbanchuk] has extensive experience in agriculture and the biofuels industry. He provides clients with expert economic analysis to support a wide range of agriculture and renewable fuels policy issues. He also has conducted economic feasibility studies and prepared business plans for organizations interested in building and investing in ethanol and biodiesel plants, and in providing independent analysis to support due diligence investigations for lenders. Some of his clients include the Renewable Fuels Association, National Corn Growers Association, American Soybean Association, and United Soybean Board; the National Biodiesel Board; the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association; Congressional Budget Office, the Farm Credit Council, the Energy Information Administration, and the Association of Washington Business.<p>
The Philosophy of the Renewable Fuels Association:<p>
Organized in 1981, RFA serves as the voice of the ethanol industry, providing advocacy, authoritative analysis, and important industry data to its members, Congress, federal and state government agencies, strategic partners, the media and other opinion-leader audiences.<p>
The RFA is governed by a Board of Directors comprised of a representative from each producer member. The Board meets several times a year to set Association policy. RFA producer members represent 90% of U.S. ethanol production.<p>
Objectives: <br>
Promote federal, state and local government policies, programs and initiatives that encourage expanded ethanol use.<p>
Provide technically accurate and timely information to auto manufacturers and technicians, the media, policy makers, marketers and refiners, and the general public.<p>
Participate in educational activities to increase public awareness regarding renewable fuels and the positive contribution they make to American energy independence, the <p>
economy and the environment.<p>
Sources:<p>


<a href="http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080404/WIRE/804040363/1036/BUSINESS01" rel="nofollow">http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080404/WIRE/80404 ... &nbsp; ...corn at 6% bushel<br>
<a href="http://www.farmpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/ed-af315a_1corn_20070126165625.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.farmpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/ed-a ... ...corn price graph<br>
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publication ... ...gas price graph<br>




<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></a></br></a></br></a></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>More quibbles<p>It is true that demand for grains in ethanol production has diverted surpluses to energy use. In one report by an industry group, oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1 -- than ethanol. The real catch-22 though is that two primary ingredients of our economy, food and fuel, are linked together.<p>
Thanks for the link to that paper commissioned by that industry group (<a href="http://www.ethanolrfa.org/about/philosophy" rel="nofollow">The Renewable Fuels Association).<p>
The study assumed a $1 increase in a gallon of gas and a $1 increase in a bushel of corn. The study was framed in such a way as to show oil having a bigger impact than corn.<p>
They didn't account for the fact that the price of corn has increased much faster than the price of oil in the last year. Although it is true that gas has increased $1 per gallon from one year ago, corn has increased $2.5 per bushel in that same time frame (presently selling for $6 a bushel).. I reframed the study to show that because corn has increased in price so much faster than oil, that it has had a bigger impact than oil. <p>
From the study:<p>
0.6 %to 0.9 %increase in food costs caused by oil price increase of $1. Average =0.75%<br>
0.3 % increase in food price caused by an increase of $1 in bushel of corn.<p>
If you assume that the present food spike is the result of price increases seen in the last year or so:<p>
Actual increase in price of oil from one year ago = $1<br>
Actual increase in bushel of corn = $3.5<p>
0.3% x 3.5 = 1.05%<p>
So, now instead of "oil has a greater impact on food prices -- by a factor of 2 to 1" you have corn making 1.4 times more impact than oil.<p>
There are many ways to bias a study. I'm not insinuating that this researcher lied. I'm pointing out how easy it is to reframe data to reflect either an intentional or subconscious bias. Bias is inherent in all studies and that is what the scientific method is all about. This paper just got its first critique.<p>
Quoting a study commissioned by an organization that butters its bread with ethanol is tantamount to quoting a study commissioned by a coal company that denies global warming.<p>
The paper was written by <a href="http://www.lecg.com/website/LWBios.nsf/OpenPage/JohnM.Urbanchuk" rel="nofollow">this guy, who works for <a href="http://www.lecg.com/website/home.nsf/OpenPage/AboutLECG" rel="nofollow">this company. Anyone can hire this company's experts to write papers for them, and trust me, if the papers you write don't support your clients, you won't be writing any more papers for them:<p>
John [Urbanchuk] has extensive experience in agriculture and the biofuels industry. He provides clients with expert economic analysis to support a wide range of agriculture and renewable fuels policy issues. He also has conducted economic feasibility studies and prepared business plans for organizations interested in building and investing in ethanol and biodiesel plants, and in providing independent analysis to support due diligence investigations for lenders. Some of his clients include the Renewable Fuels Association, National Corn Growers Association, American Soybean Association, and United Soybean Board; the National Biodiesel Board; the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association; Congressional Budget Office, the Farm Credit Council, the Energy Information Administration, and the Association of Washington Business.<p>
The Philosophy of the Renewable Fuels Association:<p>
Organized in 1981, RFA serves as the voice of the ethanol industry, providing advocacy, authoritative analysis, and important industry data to its members, Congress, federal and state government agencies, strategic partners, the media and other opinion-leader audiences.<p>
The RFA is governed by a Board of Directors comprised of a representative from each producer member. The Board meets several times a year to set Association policy. RFA producer members represent 90% of U.S. ethanol production.<p>
Objectives: <br>
Promote federal, state and local government policies, programs and initiatives that encourage expanded ethanol use.<p>
Provide technically accurate and timely information to auto manufacturers and technicians, the media, policy makers, marketers and refiners, and the general public.<p>
Participate in educational activities to increase public awareness regarding renewable fuels and the positive contribution they make to American energy independence, the <p>
economy and the environment.<p>
Sources:<p>


<a href="http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080404/WIRE/804040363/1036/BUSINESS01" rel="nofollow">http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080404/WIRE/80404 ... &nbsp; ...corn at 6% bushel<br>
<a href="http://www.farmpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/ed-af315a_1corn_20070126165625.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.farmpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/ed-a ... ...corn price graph<br>
<a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publication ... ...gas price graph<br>




<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></a></br></a></br></a></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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