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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Archer Daniels Midland will squeeze out competition, says <em>Fortune</em>]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:52:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Are you prescient or<p>is predicting the impact of biofuels on things like the environment, and the price of land and food (and therefore their own price) really all that hard to do? At this point the bumbling knuckleheads (politicians lacking your gift of prescience) appear to be nullifying their own efforts to fight global warming. We may have to pull it off despite them. Joy.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Are you prescient or<p>is predicting the impact of biofuels on things like the environment, and the price of land and food (and therefore their own price) really all that hard to do? At this point the bumbling knuckleheads (politicians lacking your gift of prescience) appear to be nullifying their own efforts to fight global warming. We may have to pull it off despite them. Joy.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:45:39 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Mad Money<p>Yup, Doug Koplow, in his <a href="http://www.globalsubsidies.org/article.php3?id_article=6&amp;var_mode=calcul" rel="nofollow">first of two reports on biofuel subsidies for the Global Subsidies Initiative (October 2006) also predicted a looming glut, and subsequent shake-out of the U.S. ethanol industry.<p>
By the way, check out Jim Cramer, over at CNBC's web site for investors, <a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838459/site/14081545/" rel="nofollow">Mad Money. Last Tuesday Cramer broadcast an interesting show, "<a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/23359759" rel="nofollow">Feast or Famine?", in which he rails against the lunacy of ethanol subsidies but points out its silver lining: big gains in the value of his "Fab Five" agricultural stocks, Mosaic, Potash Corp of Saskatchewan Inc, Agrium Inc, Monsanto, and John Deere.<p>
Personally, Cramer hates subsidies for EtOH, saying that they are "crucifying mankind upon a cross of ethanol". But his job is to help viewers make money in the stock market, so he then dutifully advises investors to be ready to jump into the market (after the dust has cleared following Cargill's announcement) and snap up shares in these companies, which mainly supply inputs (fertilizers, hybrid and GMO seeds, and farm machinery) to industrial agriculture. After all, with grain and oilseed prices at record highs, farmers across the world are going to increase their output, and for that they'll need to buy more inputs.<p>
The 13:33-minute video of the show makes compelling viewing. Cramer's madcap style is itself entertaining, but his logic is at the same time as frightening as it is incontrovertible: biofuels are here to stay, at least for the time being, so you punters out there might as well make some money from it. "If your conscience is still weighing on you after you cash in," Cramer concludes, "you can always donate the profits to the United Nations World Food Program."<p>
Remember, Cramer is only the messenger. But the message reminds us that in today's political economy we should not look to those who provide capital to worry too much about the socialization of particular industries. As far as they are concerned, if there is money to be made, what's the problem?

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p></p></p></a></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Mad Money<p>Yup, Doug Koplow, in his <a href="http://www.globalsubsidies.org/article.php3?id_article=6&amp;var_mode=calcul" rel="nofollow">first of two reports on biofuel subsidies for the Global Subsidies Initiative (October 2006) also predicted a looming glut, and subsequent shake-out of the U.S. ethanol industry.<p>
By the way, check out Jim Cramer, over at CNBC's web site for investors, <a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838459/site/14081545/" rel="nofollow">Mad Money. Last Tuesday Cramer broadcast an interesting show, "<a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/23359759" rel="nofollow">Feast or Famine?", in which he rails against the lunacy of ethanol subsidies but points out its silver lining: big gains in the value of his "Fab Five" agricultural stocks, Mosaic, Potash Corp of Saskatchewan Inc, Agrium Inc, Monsanto, and John Deere.<p>
Personally, Cramer hates subsidies for EtOH, saying that they are "crucifying mankind upon a cross of ethanol". But his job is to help viewers make money in the stock market, so he then dutifully advises investors to be ready to jump into the market (after the dust has cleared following Cargill's announcement) and snap up shares in these companies, which mainly supply inputs (fertilizers, hybrid and GMO seeds, and farm machinery) to industrial agriculture. After all, with grain and oilseed prices at record highs, farmers across the world are going to increase their output, and for that they'll need to buy more inputs.<p>
The 13:33-minute video of the show makes compelling viewing. Cramer's madcap style is itself entertaining, but his logic is at the same time as frightening as it is incontrovertible: biofuels are here to stay, at least for the time being, so you punters out there might as well make some money from it. "If your conscience is still weighing on you after you cash in," Cramer concludes, "you can always donate the profits to the United Nations World Food Program."<p>
Remember, Cramer is only the messenger. But the message reminds us that in today's political economy we should not look to those who provide capital to worry too much about the socialization of particular industries. As far as they are concerned, if there is money to be made, what's the problem?

<p>These are only my personal opinions.</p></p></p></p></a></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by bookerly</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:54:15 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>More<p><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The Washington Post reports today that higher prices are forcing food programs for starving people to cut back.<p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/29/AR2008022904029.html?hpid=topnews" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008 ...<p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The poor will suffer first and most. &nbsp;I only hope someone teaches them how to use AK-47's before it is too late. (smile)<p>
patrick in Beijing </p></p></a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>More<p><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The Washington Post reports today that higher prices are forcing food programs for starving people to cut back.<p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/29/AR2008022904029.html?hpid=topnews" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008 ...<p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;The poor will suffer first and most. &nbsp;I only hope someone teaches them how to use AK-47's before it is too late. (smile)<p>
patrick in Beijing </p></p></a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:33:43 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ethanol and AK-47's<p>I absolutely agree that the use of ethanol for fuel is going to increase the use of AK-47's for remediation. The most unfortunate part of this cycle &nbsp;will be that the use of the guns will be local in the areas where there is hunger but not starvation. I believe that this is the true source of unrest in Kenya. <p>
Where people are subject to economic boom/bust cycles that include real hunger in the bust cycle they will use the next boom to improve their long term economic security. In most of the third world if you are economically busted your access to food becomes sporadic. It may take months or years before meals become regular and sufficient. It doesn't take a genius to notice that the men with the guns eat better than everyone else. A smart man gets a gun.<p>
What I believe we will see this summer is widespread civil unrest as a result of inflated food prices. The guns will come out as men try to secure food for themselves and their families. The people they will attack will be the middle classes of their area and local minorities. <p>
The truly wealthy will hire private security forces that will work as long as the cash flows and then turn to banditry also. The resulting economic disruption will lead to localized collapses of trade and further famine. <p>
In short Archer-Daniels Midland and George Bush looked out over the world and said: "let a thousand Rwandas bloom" and made it so. <p>
Grain prices have gone through the roof while the buying power of the worlds urban poor has stagnated. People now hungry will starve and the starving will breed disease. <p>
Don't say nobody warned you. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ethanol and AK-47's<p>I absolutely agree that the use of ethanol for fuel is going to increase the use of AK-47's for remediation. The most unfortunate part of this cycle &nbsp;will be that the use of the guns will be local in the areas where there is hunger but not starvation. I believe that this is the true source of unrest in Kenya. <p>
Where people are subject to economic boom/bust cycles that include real hunger in the bust cycle they will use the next boom to improve their long term economic security. In most of the third world if you are economically busted your access to food becomes sporadic. It may take months or years before meals become regular and sufficient. It doesn't take a genius to notice that the men with the guns eat better than everyone else. A smart man gets a gun.<p>
What I believe we will see this summer is widespread civil unrest as a result of inflated food prices. The guns will come out as men try to secure food for themselves and their families. The people they will attack will be the middle classes of their area and local minorities. <p>
The truly wealthy will hire private security forces that will work as long as the cash flows and then turn to banditry also. The resulting economic disruption will lead to localized collapses of trade and further famine. <p>
In short Archer-Daniels Midland and George Bush looked out over the world and said: "let a thousand Rwandas bloom" and made it so. <p>
Grain prices have gone through the roof while the buying power of the worlds urban poor has stagnated. People now hungry will starve and the starving will breed disease. <p>
Don't say nobody warned you. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 00:46:58 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Will Charity begin at Home</strong></p><p>I read about a selection process going on to see which countries we are going to cut food aid. The cost over run caused by both using food stock grains as ethanol and the burgeoning China and India demand on grain. </p><p>
I never understood the use of corn for ethanol when the brazilian model using sugar cane was an obvious choice. I understood the power of the corn lobby and the subsidy. The obvious effiency of sugar cane and the obvious future strain on the grain market should have canceled out the corn lobby for a patriot. Then again when you have the best government money can buy it will always be easy to second guess the decision making process. </p><p>
To be practical the AK-47 theory would be of little concern to us if we ever learned how to keep an army at home. You reap a double savings, shutting down most of the 730 military bases we have in 130 countries would put a large dent in the deficit. Stop the food give away program and price wheat and corn for export much like the Saudi's charge for a barrel of oil and give the American consumer a break at the grocery store. </p><p>
It may sound cruel but if you think you are ever going to wean Sub-Sahara Africa off our grain stocks you don't know anything about the Malthus Theory. Political solutions can't over ride nature. The pain threashold of the American consumer will force some changes. Modified AR-15's and AK-47's in the United States can induce some behavior modifications on world grain markets also. </p><p>
Pain at the pump causes irratability, pain in the stomach causes revolution. I will never become so liberal as not to begin with charity at home. Especially when the problems we are trying to solve throwing grain at are insurmountable. </p><p>
I remember cases where the U.S. insigna has to be taken off the grain bags and it is destributed in some cases by the factions that have destroying America in their incorporation papers. We get little or no credit for half the grain that is distributed and in most cases it comes back by biting the hand that feeds you. </p><p>
Let the free market that the neocons tout work in this situation. Lets see how the House of Saud likes buying wheat and corn at $100 dollars a bushel. </p><p>
Whether your sensitivity or conscious allows this kind of thinking or not, the above scenario is inevitable. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Will Charity begin at Home</strong></p><p>I read about a selection process going on to see which countries we are going to cut food aid. The cost over run caused by both using food stock grains as ethanol and the burgeoning China and India demand on grain. </p><p>
I never understood the use of corn for ethanol when the brazilian model using sugar cane was an obvious choice. I understood the power of the corn lobby and the subsidy. The obvious effiency of sugar cane and the obvious future strain on the grain market should have canceled out the corn lobby for a patriot. Then again when you have the best government money can buy it will always be easy to second guess the decision making process. </p><p>
To be practical the AK-47 theory would be of little concern to us if we ever learned how to keep an army at home. You reap a double savings, shutting down most of the 730 military bases we have in 130 countries would put a large dent in the deficit. Stop the food give away program and price wheat and corn for export much like the Saudi's charge for a barrel of oil and give the American consumer a break at the grocery store. </p><p>
It may sound cruel but if you think you are ever going to wean Sub-Sahara Africa off our grain stocks you don't know anything about the Malthus Theory. Political solutions can't over ride nature. The pain threashold of the American consumer will force some changes. Modified AR-15's and AK-47's in the United States can induce some behavior modifications on world grain markets also. </p><p>
Pain at the pump causes irratability, pain in the stomach causes revolution. I will never become so liberal as not to begin with charity at home. Especially when the problems we are trying to solve throwing grain at are insurmountable. </p><p>
I remember cases where the U.S. insigna has to be taken off the grain bags and it is destributed in some cases by the factions that have destroying America in their incorporation papers. We get little or no credit for half the grain that is distributed and in most cases it comes back by biting the hand that feeds you. </p><p>
Let the free market that the neocons tout work in this situation. Lets see how the House of Saud likes buying wheat and corn at $100 dollars a bushel. </p><p>
Whether your sensitivity or conscious allows this kind of thinking or not, the above scenario is inevitable. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Pompey Road</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 01:01:30 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Apocalypse Redux</strong></p><p>A measure of wheat for a denarii, and three measure of barley for a denarii; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Apocalypse Redux</strong></p><p>A measure of wheat for a denarii, and three measure of barley for a denarii; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 

<p>The eons of time and nature was good to us down here. It was not until we become civilized that destroying our habitat become fathomable or fashionable.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 02:44:17 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Santayana Wasn't A Hispanic Rock Band<p><br>
1973.<p>
Energy Crisis.<p>
1976.<p>
Jimmy Carter.<p>
Syngas. &nbsp;<p>
Solar. <p>
1980.<p>
The spigots open again. &nbsp;<p>
Alternatives go poof.<p>
Hello Mercedes Benz<p>
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Santayana Wasn't A Hispanic Rock Band<p><br>
1973.<p>
Energy Crisis.<p>
1976.<p>
Jimmy Carter.<p>
Syngas. &nbsp;<p>
Solar. <p>
1980.<p>
The spigots open again. &nbsp;<p>
Alternatives go poof.<p>
Hello Mercedes Benz<p>
<a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by ddrew</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:42:04 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/there-will-be-ethanol/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>ethanol</strong></p><p>What needs to happen now or retroactively back to the last ethanol subsidy checks being sent is a 100% reduction in those subsidies, a roll back of the legislated mandate of ethanol percentage in gasoline to 0% and increased paid set asides, summer fallow regimes or nitrogen plow down crops to conserve soil and resources for food for future generations and to keep the present grains commodity price up at it's current break even level to preserve farmers. Now food can be produced for future generations, just in case they need it. Much like maintaining a fire department just in case there is a fire. Right now if there is a fire ADM and Cargill are right there trying to convince some politician to dump ethanol on it.</p>
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				<p><strong>ethanol</strong></p><p>What needs to happen now or retroactively back to the last ethanol subsidy checks being sent is a 100% reduction in those subsidies, a roll back of the legislated mandate of ethanol percentage in gasoline to 0% and increased paid set asides, summer fallow regimes or nitrogen plow down crops to conserve soil and resources for food for future generations and to keep the present grains commodity price up at it's current break even level to preserve farmers. Now food can be produced for future generations, just in case they need it. Much like maintaining a fire department just in case there is a fire. Right now if there is a fire ADM and Cargill are right there trying to convince some politician to dump ethanol on it.</p>
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