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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Democrats are undermining the strongest message behind climate policy]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:28:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>The truth</strong></p><p>There are very few in DC who really understand energy economics. &nbsp;Partly because it's complicated, and partly because - until very recently - it's never been an electoral issue. &nbsp;As such, there hasn't been any incentive for most politicians to spend time learning and understanding the nuances of our energy system. &nbsp;(Let's not forget that Bill Frist first came up with the idea of giving people a hundred bucks in response to high oil prices. &nbsp;Energy illiteracy is bipartisan.)</p><p>
In other words, it's entirely possible that the Ds believe what they're saying about the possibility of returning to the days of cheap energy. &nbsp;In which case telling the truth is actually the second step. &nbsp;Learning the truth comes first.</p>
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				<p><strong>The truth</strong></p><p>There are very few in DC who really understand energy economics. &nbsp;Partly because it's complicated, and partly because - until very recently - it's never been an electoral issue. &nbsp;As such, there hasn't been any incentive for most politicians to spend time learning and understanding the nuances of our energy system. &nbsp;(Let's not forget that Bill Frist first came up with the idea of giving people a hundred bucks in response to high oil prices. &nbsp;Energy illiteracy is bipartisan.)</p><p>
In other words, it's entirely possible that the Ds believe what they're saying about the possibility of returning to the days of cheap energy. &nbsp;In which case telling the truth is actually the second step. &nbsp;Learning the truth comes first.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:14:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>It's Always &quot;Cheap&quot;</strong></p><p><br>
The promise of alternative "sustainable" energy is not just that it doesn't pollute. &nbsp;For most of its history, it's promise...like that of nuclear...was that it would be essentially free. &nbsp;"Too cheap to meter" was what the nuclear industry touted.</p><p>
The Green energies have always been saying that prior to ITruth. &nbsp; The promise was that either the utilities would build these limitless collectors of wind and solar power or that every home would produce overvoltage to sell back to the power company.</p><p>
Hydrocarbons, which are produced inside the core of the Earth by abiotic processes, are in fact, a "limitless" and cheap form of energy. &nbsp; It costs Saudi Arabia $1.25 a barrel to extract oil. &nbsp;It's $5 a barrel by the time they ship it. &nbsp; </p><p>
Everything else is add on fees.</p><p>
But you have to live with it: Oil is a natural and renewable source of energy. &nbsp; If we could develop a fuel cell that ran on crude oil, the whole system would be as sustainable as the orbit of the Earth around the Moon.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>It's Always &quot;Cheap&quot;</strong></p><p><br>
The promise of alternative "sustainable" energy is not just that it doesn't pollute. &nbsp;For most of its history, it's promise...like that of nuclear...was that it would be essentially free. &nbsp;"Too cheap to meter" was what the nuclear industry touted.</p><p>
The Green energies have always been saying that prior to ITruth. &nbsp; The promise was that either the utilities would build these limitless collectors of wind and solar power or that every home would produce overvoltage to sell back to the power company.</p><p>
Hydrocarbons, which are produced inside the core of the Earth by abiotic processes, are in fact, a "limitless" and cheap form of energy. &nbsp; It costs Saudi Arabia $1.25 a barrel to extract oil. &nbsp;It's $5 a barrel by the time they ship it. &nbsp; </p><p>
Everything else is add on fees.</p><p>
But you have to live with it: Oil is a natural and renewable source of energy. &nbsp; If we could develop a fuel cell that ran on crude oil, the whole system would be as sustainable as the orbit of the Earth around the Moon.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:35:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>oh! i just learned about abiotic oil!<p>here's the <a href="http://econospeak.blogspot.com/2008/05/cheap-oil-tomorrow.html?showComment=1211058180000#c3940955207412493010" rel="nofollow">relevant chapter of the textbook.<p>
basic physics shows what goes up must come down; tegmark's 'shut up and calculate' shows that physics is math, hence after a certain point sequences of numbers (e.g. 1,2,3.....) must start decreasing. (this is called 'negative temperature'.) so, prices will come down. trust me.<p>
also, most reasonable people don't believe the ludicrous 'peak oil' theory (like global warming myths, and the 911 official story that the WTC is not still there ) and follow the geo-philosopher Mirowski. They show that when prices get high, temper(ature)s flare, and this speeds up conversion of 'abiotic' rocks into oil which is also dragged to the earth's surface to fill the national patroleum reserve, due to the force exerted by high prices. (because high prices are larger numbers, and they are proportional to mass, hence they gravitationally attract the abiotic oil to the surface. this is actually say's law.) <p>
another theory might be that when prices go up, people will switch, to say Camels, and hence oil will no longer be seen as having any value. I already have switched, and now run my Humvee on gold.<p>
anyhow i love it when real life reinforces classroom material.</p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>oh! i just learned about abiotic oil!<p>here's the <a href="http://econospeak.blogspot.com/2008/05/cheap-oil-tomorrow.html?showComment=1211058180000#c3940955207412493010" rel="nofollow">relevant chapter of the textbook.<p>
basic physics shows what goes up must come down; tegmark's 'shut up and calculate' shows that physics is math, hence after a certain point sequences of numbers (e.g. 1,2,3.....) must start decreasing. (this is called 'negative temperature'.) so, prices will come down. trust me.<p>
also, most reasonable people don't believe the ludicrous 'peak oil' theory (like global warming myths, and the 911 official story that the WTC is not still there ) and follow the geo-philosopher Mirowski. They show that when prices get high, temper(ature)s flare, and this speeds up conversion of 'abiotic' rocks into oil which is also dragged to the earth's surface to fill the national patroleum reserve, due to the force exerted by high prices. (because high prices are larger numbers, and they are proportional to mass, hence they gravitationally attract the abiotic oil to the surface. this is actually say's law.) <p>
another theory might be that when prices go up, people will switch, to say Camels, and hence oil will no longer be seen as having any value. I already have switched, and now run my Humvee on gold.<p>
anyhow i love it when real life reinforces classroom material.</p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Capster</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:06:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>The truth, another take</strong></p><p>As someone who lives in DC (please, no stones) my take is that many here are actually reasonably well informed about these issues. &nbsp;It's just hard to push through something that will raise prices on consumers, or allow high prices to continue, because, let's be honest - the american people are pretty short-sighted. &nbsp;There's not much incentive for a politician to take the long view, which you need with climate, when s/he is really concerned with getting re-elected in 2 years. &nbsp;Every 2 years. &nbsp;</p><p>
Also, there's not much elasticity in rising gas prices. &nbsp;I am fairly confident (but welcome dissent) that the consumption of gas has not gone down materially while prices for gas have doubled in the past few years. &nbsp;That begs the question with politicians - if price increases don't appear to work, should we support price increases? &nbsp;The answer is "yes", because at some point they do work, but it will take some time to get there. &nbsp;Shifting behavior, shifting our economy - as many have pointed out, it won't be easy.</p><p>
David, I agree with you - our country is pretty deluded. &nbsp;I hope that enough leaders in congress stand up to make these changes. &nbsp;But to be crystal clear, it won't happen this year. &nbsp;It will be 09 or 10 before a bill gets passed, regardless of who is in the WH. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>The truth, another take</strong></p><p>As someone who lives in DC (please, no stones) my take is that many here are actually reasonably well informed about these issues. &nbsp;It's just hard to push through something that will raise prices on consumers, or allow high prices to continue, because, let's be honest - the american people are pretty short-sighted. &nbsp;There's not much incentive for a politician to take the long view, which you need with climate, when s/he is really concerned with getting re-elected in 2 years. &nbsp;Every 2 years. &nbsp;</p><p>
Also, there's not much elasticity in rising gas prices. &nbsp;I am fairly confident (but welcome dissent) that the consumption of gas has not gone down materially while prices for gas have doubled in the past few years. &nbsp;That begs the question with politicians - if price increases don't appear to work, should we support price increases? &nbsp;The answer is "yes", because at some point they do work, but it will take some time to get there. &nbsp;Shifting behavior, shifting our economy - as many have pointed out, it won't be easy.</p><p>
David, I agree with you - our country is pretty deluded. &nbsp;I hope that enough leaders in congress stand up to make these changes. &nbsp;But to be crystal clear, it won't happen this year. &nbsp;It will be 09 or 10 before a bill gets passed, regardless of who is in the WH. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by MAD MAC</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:15:43 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Tell the Voters the truth????</strong></p><p>Whoa, whoa, whoa.......... stop right there.</p><p>
Politicians don't do that. That would violate their code of ethics.</p><p>
Dave, you are, of course, quite right. And people are fools if they just sit back and wait for the government (US or any other) to do something about this. People have to start modifying their lifestyles themselves. Government isn't positioned to tackle this issue yet. </p><p>
So, you can take the bull by the horns, walk the dog, figure out the impacts of peak oil, and structure your lives to deal with those impacts, or not and suffer the consequences. </p><p>
As they say here: Up to you.

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Tell the Voters the truth????</strong></p><p>Whoa, whoa, whoa.......... stop right there.</p><p>
Politicians don't do that. That would violate their code of ethics.</p><p>
Dave, you are, of course, quite right. And people are fools if they just sit back and wait for the government (US or any other) to do something about this. People have to start modifying their lifestyles themselves. Government isn't positioned to tackle this issue yet. </p><p>
So, you can take the bull by the horns, walk the dog, figure out the impacts of peak oil, and structure your lives to deal with those impacts, or not and suffer the consequences. </p><p>
As they say here: Up to you.

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:02:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-truth-will-set-you-free/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Just to be fair to authors,</strong></p><p>let us name our sources: Gospel According to Saint John, 8.32: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."</p><p>
The context is one of several disputes in that gospel between Jesus and some Jewish religious experts. &nbsp;But the words themselves have often been taken out of context, and applied in all kinds of new ways.</p><p>
Circa 100 CE, the words sound kind of Gnostic: the enfleshed soul discovers the truth about about his/her true divine-related nature, and so is freed from the encumberments of material reality.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Just to be fair to authors,</strong></p><p>let us name our sources: Gospel According to Saint John, 8.32: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."</p><p>
The context is one of several disputes in that gospel between Jesus and some Jewish religious experts. &nbsp;But the words themselves have often been taken out of context, and applied in all kinds of new ways.</p><p>
Circa 100 CE, the words sound kind of Gnostic: the enfleshed soul discovers the truth about about his/her true divine-related nature, and so is freed from the encumberments of material reality.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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