The issue with Solar Thermal projects is the land area required and the subsequent need for transmission and distribution of the power.

Solar Thermal is significantly more difficult to do as a distributed combined heat & power application for a couple of reasons.

Land area required
Super-heated steam requires a union pipe fitter to be onsiste & monitor the system while it is pressurized.
Transmission & Distribution/interconnection issues.

Otherwise a great technology that should make a comeback in the sunbelt.

Land cost is 5% to 10% of system cost.  I have been cogenerating heat and power all morning.

Solar mirrors are good in most climates, including Seattle.

Those of us in SoCal sprawl still have miles of desert over the hill from us ... much of it between there and the SCE coal plants across the river in Nevada.

I thought (by the headline and teaser) that this article had promise when it started out by saying how solar thermal has often been overlooked and overshadowed by its sexier cousin: Solar PV.

Wow... great point and great start, but the article simply is a description of another glitzy incarnation of solar power: the large scale plant.

Not one word about solar heating for individual buildings: domestic hot water or space heating.

Not one word how cutting individual building/dwelling demands by 20, 40, 60% or whatever makes a huge difference in fossil fuel consumption and resulting economic drain and pollution.

What's wrong? Not everything is solved in some far -off facility with magic power.

The real magic is the power of the individual. The responsibility of the individual to save 5% here, 10% there.

Once we get over the addiction of the quick, somebody-else-can-do-it fix, we have a chance for recovery.

I wish there were a statistic that could estimate how much it would cost to install one 4' x 8' solar hot water collector per family in the United States.

I wish I knew how much fossil fuel that action would save

I wish I knew how much CO2 that action would save.

I wish I knew how many days of war in Iraq that entire program would cost.

In the meantime, I am installing a couple at my house before autumn.

Let's hear more about this, please.

Stirling is not moving forward, has a generic problem - no lubrication.  This causes engine wear.  If it was lubricated and was a VW engine running at 50 mph it would crap out at 300,000 miles, 6,000 hours, 3 solar years, can not amortize.  Engine-generator cost would exceed $1/Watt, more like $2/Watt installed with concentrator.

Wrong question.  If you could make natural gas from sunlight at 80% efficiency then use that gas to make power 24/7 at 50% efficiency -- why would you use solar thermal power only when the sun shines?

This is just one article, there are certainly other important ways to make solar energy usable, it just takes time to go thru them all.

Not everybody would be interested to have a solar anything on there house.   That might be 80 to 90 percent of the population.   (unless there was enough incentive)    That's why we need to get to utility scale CSP, so people who only want electricity and don't care it's source, would also get it from carbon reduced sources.

This one from spain, with a center tower and acres of mirrors, is the one that I have read has the lowest cost potential.  I think it's the one that should be emphasized.

It's good to see more of CSP' getting put in.   If only it could go at a faster pace.

The dish CSP's are to expensive, I don't see how they can make it.

I think they said it sterling was $2/watt. SCE is putting a lot in, I would think they don't have that big of a problem.  What are you referring to with 80% solar efficiencyleading to gas?  sorry I don't know the reference.

>I have been cogenerating heat and power all morning.

Via Solar? Please tell more. I'm a newbie here, so please copy me at (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') output += "&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"; else output += unescape(l[i]); } document.getElementById('eeEncEmail_SFH3uMuMLe').innerHTML = output; //]]>

Focused on distributed solar thermal.

I looked hard at all of the small heat engine types for 20 years and just gave up.  None of them pencil out due to moving parts wear, thermal cycling, exotic high temperature materials, and so on.  The main problem is that lubricants can not take the heat.  In cooler steam engines the lubricating oil is added to the steam and must be separated back out from the steam discharge.  

The recent history of Stirling engines comes from the 1970s plan in Sweden to use United Sterling engines in cars during the OPEC oil embargo.  Solar power engineers tried to use these engines because they were to be mass produced in Sweden.  The engines failed cost and durability tests and were abandoned for cars, and subsequently shelved for solar applications.  Stirling companies were spun off at 5% of former value yet remained promoted by the salvage buyers, now Stirling Energy Systems.  That quote on the lifetime of VW engines applied to heat engine lifetime projections came from one of the many CSP conferences we all attended year after year.

Solar power is sexy but not scalable, like what Vinod Khosla said about pv.  Lovins on displacing natural gas before making power with solar concentrators said, "You have to learn to fly before making plans to land on Mars".  The costs, risks, complexity, and ROI is excellent for solar industrial process heat (a solar program terminated by Reagan, solar concentrators were terminated by Bush).  Those solar programs would have saved natural gas using 80% efficient solar concentrator systems.   Displacing gas with solar is the same as making gas with solar.

What I can not prove but definitely suspect is that simple low-cost solar energy became complicated high-cost solar power as a method to set up solar to fail.  It is damning disinformation concerning the efficacy of solar energy to displace fossil fuels.

CSP - solar thermal electric generation should be the 800 pound gorilla of our renewables base.  On less than 10,000 square miles of the southwest, we can make all the electrical energy used in the U.S. and send it around the country on high voltage dc.  This is not to denigrated local use of cost effective technologies such as wind and geothermal.  But solar thermal electric generation now seems to be moving down to a cost in the order of 10 cents a kwh and will continue down as it is built out.
Sol Shapiro ((JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') output += "&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"; else output += unescape(l[i]); } document.getElementById('eeEncEmail_xpzayZzuQf').innerHTML = output; //]]> )

...the small (25kw) sterling engines would not work (say on the roof of a big building or ex-parking lot), but might work in a big configuration that SCE is using?  I seem to remember that you once said that small csp's could be built, but perhaps I misunderstood - and the lubrication is needed in order to move the engine to track the sun, but it gets too hot to work properly?  Thanks!

I don't know if anybody knows lifetime.  Every year I hear big stories that never happen.  Its an old story.

My lede are heliostats reflecting sunlight to towers for process heat applications.   Heliostats are very simple mirrors on poles.  The industrial gas saved can then be used for baseload gas turbines, which are scalable off-the-shelf power.

High-intensity pv power can be generated off the tops of the thermal cycles on solar towers.   Solar Systems in Oz has drawings of pv towers.

Cooling solar power plants in deserts is a waste of thermal energy, and difficult.   Distributed solar cogeneration systems near people are more efficient, lower cost with greater value - heat and power.

...that are miniature scale of the Spanish installation, they can be scaled down to, say, the roof of a large building or a parking lot?

GreyFlcn, you post great stuff here thanks!

Do you have a website with a list of your graphs & documents URLs?

Thanks in advance,

Laurent

Yes, I've seen them as small as ping pong balls.  The current sweet spot is about 12 feet square.  Heliostats over parking lots reflecting to towers over factories is a good image.  They can also feed into district heating/cooling and power plants to reduce fuel consumption.

Idea Labs - Bill Gross - has one foot heliostats on building roofs.

Critical cost information needed --

Heliostat installed cost below $200/m2 will blow the pants off coal. Same below $100/m2 in cloudy Seattle type climates.  It can be done.

I've been a proponent of solar power for 30 years now, but until some one like bush finds a way to keep on getting paid for it(sun power that is)but at least it will be clean & inexaustable! but let's face it,our president & his co-horts are too vested in oil, & have proven that by trading our kids lives for their interest in Iraq? 1st it was weapons of mass destruction(none found),then it was terrorists(got plenty of other countries breeding them)? now it is(a stable Iraq)? the man is a lair & lining his pockets with blood money!Texas needs to build over 150 new coal burning plants, Florida wants nuclear plants? not enough desert in Texas? FED EX runs a shipping plant on solar, with some to spare?& there is plenty of cleared, unused land here in north Florida? almost every roof here could be redone with these new pv shingles, & put lots of people to work? but then the electric companies couldn't justify their price hikes & fuel fees! invest in America for Americans, or soon we will all be homeless!God bless&best wishes in these troubled times.

why cool at all, just use the heat to run steam turbines & make more power? solar hot water systems have been in use since the 70s, i had one on my roof!stop trying to make excuses why solar can't be used, unless you like choking on the air you'll be breathing, in 10 or so years? or maybe you own oil futures? & now pv shingles are available, there is no reason every home should have them!

tell that to FED-EX???

they would rather destroy our bio-sphere instead!

I heard that such lines cost 1.5 million per mile. If say, 50 sq mi of land was to be used for CST (concentrated solar thermal) plants, and assuming that each 7 sq mi = 1 gigawatt (probably less but with much higher capacity with molten salt storage), and assuming that it cost $4 per watt, then $28 billion for a small percentage of America's needs but at least 28 times than cost of the lines! If everybody paid a dollar a month for lines, then over 100 miles worth every month!