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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New data show that 2008 organic food sales will reach $32.9 billion]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:27:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>What's the share?</strong></p><p>So what's the share of organic food in the total food consumption in the US?</p><p>
Over here in the EU, it is less than 1 percent. </p><p>
I have nothing against organic food in highly developed, wealthy markets with few poor people. </p><p>
But it would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living. </p>
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				<p><strong>What's the share?</strong></p><p>So what's the share of organic food in the total food consumption in the US?</p><p>
Over here in the EU, it is less than 1 percent. </p><p>
I have nothing against organic food in highly developed, wealthy markets with few poor people. </p><p>
But it would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living. </p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:18:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Cuban example (again)<p>Cuba's organic revolution has shown that rather than diminishing the ability of people to feed themselves organic agriculture frees poor people from the costs of imported fertilizers, pesticides and fuels and the debt bondage it produces. <p>
Contrast to Haiti where small rice farms were replaced with large tracts farmed by mechanized agriculture and you can see the results. The country that converted to organic agriculture eats; the country that attempted to exploit trade and green-revolution techniques starves. <p>
Who would rather be a Haitian than a Cuban? 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The Cuban example (again)<p>Cuba's organic revolution has shown that rather than diminishing the ability of people to feed themselves organic agriculture frees poor people from the costs of imported fertilizers, pesticides and fuels and the debt bondage it produces. <p>
Contrast to Haiti where small rice farms were replaced with large tracts farmed by mechanized agriculture and you can see the results. The country that converted to organic agriculture eats; the country that attempted to exploit trade and green-revolution techniques starves. <p>
Who would rather be a Haitian than a Cuban? 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:30:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Organics encourage larger ag. workforce...</strong></p><p>I have nothing against organic food in highly developed, wealthy markets with few poor people. </p><p>
But it would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living.</p><p>
<strong>Jonas</strong>, most countries with a high percentage of agricultural workers ALREADY rely mostly organic foods.</p><p>
That's usually why they have so many people employeed as farmers to begin with.</p><p>
Coutries with industrial-scale agriculture typically require less of a workforce, since most of the process is mechanized and requires relatively little labor.</p><p>
Organic farming generally encourages a larger agricultural workforce, especially if it's on a local or small-scale production models.</p>
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				<p><strong>Organics encourage larger ag. workforce...</strong></p><p>I have nothing against organic food in highly developed, wealthy markets with few poor people. </p><p>
But it would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living.</p><p>
<strong>Jonas</strong>, most countries with a high percentage of agricultural workers ALREADY rely mostly organic foods.</p><p>
That's usually why they have so many people employeed as farmers to begin with.</p><p>
Coutries with industrial-scale agriculture typically require less of a workforce, since most of the process is mechanized and requires relatively little labor.</p><p>
Organic farming generally encourages a larger agricultural workforce, especially if it's on a local or small-scale production models.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:43:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Exactly, Tasermon</strong></p><p>Exactly. Like Sir David King recently said: organic farming is what you find in the most disastrously poor and food insecure regions of Africa, where people starve to death by the hundreds of thousands. </p><p>
It is these regions that urgently need modern agriculture and inputs, in order to survive. </p><p>
It's the most important development objective around. The rapid transition from primitive, organic, low-yield agriculture, towards highly intensive, modern, high yield farming.</p><p>
This transition is:</p><p>


good for people - because it allows them to eat instead of starve to death <br>
good for the environment - because it requires far less land, which means far less deforestation, soil erosion, soil nutrient depletion, etc...<br>
good for development; because when farmers get modern, a large share of them has to move to cities, which is great, because rural-urban migration straightforwardly leads to reduced fertility rates, thus reducing pressures on the environment further</p><p>


The worst thing that could happen to developing countries is a continuation of the organic agriculture they are currently practising. </p><p>
Luckily, governments, aid agencies and scientists are beginning to understand this.</p><p>
Initiative likes the Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA) are key.</p><p>
Like Sir David says: green bourgeois organic food pushers are responsible for keeping Africa poor and for killing hundreds of thousands of people. </br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Exactly, Tasermon</strong></p><p>Exactly. Like Sir David King recently said: organic farming is what you find in the most disastrously poor and food insecure regions of Africa, where people starve to death by the hundreds of thousands. </p><p>
It is these regions that urgently need modern agriculture and inputs, in order to survive. </p><p>
It's the most important development objective around. The rapid transition from primitive, organic, low-yield agriculture, towards highly intensive, modern, high yield farming.</p><p>
This transition is:</p><p>


good for people - because it allows them to eat instead of starve to death <br>
good for the environment - because it requires far less land, which means far less deforestation, soil erosion, soil nutrient depletion, etc...<br>
good for development; because when farmers get modern, a large share of them has to move to cities, which is great, because rural-urban migration straightforwardly leads to reduced fertility rates, thus reducing pressures on the environment further</p><p>


The worst thing that could happen to developing countries is a continuation of the organic agriculture they are currently practising. </p><p>
Luckily, governments, aid agencies and scientists are beginning to understand this.</p><p>
Initiative likes the Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA) are key.</p><p>
Like Sir David says: green bourgeois organic food pushers are responsible for keeping Africa poor and for killing hundreds of thousands of people. </br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Michael Hoexter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 06:29:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Petrofree Ag<p>Agriculture that relies on petroleum inputs, including most organic ag, is ultimately unsustainable. &nbsp;I've floated the concept of the Electric Farm on my blog to show how renewable energy can be harnessed to sustainably increase yields in mechanized agriculture:<p>
<a href="http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with-phil-timmons-re-the-electric-farm/" rel="nofollow">http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with- ...<p>
I believe it's possible to learn the benefits of older methods of cultivation while applying more sophisticated farm implements strategically. </p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Petrofree Ag<p>Agriculture that relies on petroleum inputs, including most organic ag, is ultimately unsustainable. &nbsp;I've floated the concept of the Electric Farm on my blog to show how renewable energy can be harnessed to sustainably increase yields in mechanized agriculture:<p>
<a href="http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with-phil-timmons-re-the-electric-farm/" rel="nofollow">http://terraverde.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/exchange-with- ...<p>
I believe it's possible to learn the benefits of older methods of cultivation while applying more sophisticated farm implements strategically. </p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by EnviroFan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 04:29:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jonas</strong></p><p>That's ridiculous to claim that advocating organic agricultural practices that are not ecologically destructive is somehow worse environmentally than industrial agriculture. &nbsp;</p><p>
Check out the Rodale Institute and their organic farming model. &nbsp;Their organic fields have been OUTPRODUCING the conventional fields for YEARS. &nbsp;Perhaps the debate is a little more nuanced than simply claiming that industrial ag is better. &nbsp;Done properly, organic can outproduce conventional without bringing such horrible ecological effects (eg, the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico). &nbsp;I would even say that following the Rodale production method would actually lead to the things you claim industrial ag does.

<p>Let's make this place better.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Jonas</strong></p><p>That's ridiculous to claim that advocating organic agricultural practices that are not ecologically destructive is somehow worse environmentally than industrial agriculture. &nbsp;</p><p>
Check out the Rodale Institute and their organic farming model. &nbsp;Their organic fields have been OUTPRODUCING the conventional fields for YEARS. &nbsp;Perhaps the debate is a little more nuanced than simply claiming that industrial ag is better. &nbsp;Done properly, organic can outproduce conventional without bringing such horrible ecological effects (eg, the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico). &nbsp;I would even say that following the Rodale production method would actually lead to the things you claim industrial ag does.

<p>Let's make this place better.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 05:04:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-organic-times-are-a-changin/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Criminal Disaster</strong></p><p>[I]t would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living.<br>
</p><p>
No, what's a criminal disaster is to produce and use artificial chemicals that poison the Earth and everything that lives here. &nbsp;Feeding some members of an already grossly overpopulated species is no excuse for poisoning the Earth. &nbsp;Your anthropocentric fanaticism is thoroughly disgusting.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Criminal Disaster</strong></p><p>[I]t would be a criminal disaster to implement organic food projects in countries where people still have to farm and work to make a living.<br>
</p><p>
No, what's a criminal disaster is to produce and use artificial chemicals that poison the Earth and everything that lives here. &nbsp;Feeding some members of an already grossly overpopulated species is no excuse for poisoning the Earth. &nbsp;Your anthropocentric fanaticism is thoroughly disgusting.</br></p>
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