<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Khosla’s letter to <em>Science</em> backfires]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Whiskerfish http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:00:55 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/1 yay Searchinger!

dead on!

Whiskerfish in Africa

]]> yay Searchinger!

dead on!

Whiskerfish in Africa

]]> Comment #2 by vakibs http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:58:35 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/2 deforestation is a different problem from biofuels

Deforestation is a serious issue. It is unbecoming to take logical leaps, and point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

The causes of deforestation are varied : most of this happens due to livestock rearing and subsistence agriculture. Yes, you heard me right : subsistence agriculture.

Take it from the bible of deforestation.

These issues are not directly tied to increased pressure on farmland due to biofuel cultivation. Yes, there is a link. But it is tenuous - not as strong as the biofuel antagonists claim.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> deforestation is a different problem from biofuels

Deforestation is a serious issue. It is unbecoming to take logical leaps, and point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

The causes of deforestation are varied : most of this happens due to livestock rearing and subsistence agriculture. Yes, you heard me right : subsistence agriculture.

Take it from the bible of deforestation.

These issues are not directly tied to increased pressure on farmland due to biofuel cultivation. Yes, there is a link. But it is tenuous - not as strong as the biofuel antagonists claim.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Comment #3 by vakibs http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:00:26 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/3 causes of deforestation

in the amazon basin and in the world.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> causes of deforestation

in the amazon basin and in the world.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Comment #4 by eriqa http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:05:41 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/4 It's about the displacement

Certainly, subsistence farmers cause a significant amount of deforestation.  But, converting huge swaths of land, previously used for subsistence farming, to fuel crops increases the value of that land - thus pushing the subsistence farmers off the land and onto virgin forest.  

Or in other words, if we start growing more crops we are going to need more land, and there is not enough fallow land to accommodate all the fuel crops some want to grow.  The fact that some of the land previously under cultivation, or some of the land currently being deforested, is subsistence farming, is irrelevant.

]]> It's about the displacement

Certainly, subsistence farmers cause a significant amount of deforestation.  But, converting huge swaths of land, previously used for subsistence farming, to fuel crops increases the value of that land - thus pushing the subsistence farmers off the land and onto virgin forest.  

Or in other words, if we start growing more crops we are going to need more land, and there is not enough fallow land to accommodate all the fuel crops some want to grow.  The fact that some of the land previously under cultivation, or some of the land currently being deforested, is subsistence farming, is irrelevant.

]]> Comment #5 by vakibs http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:55:04 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/5 why are there subsistence farmers in 21st century

This is the question to ask.

With or without biofuel cultivation, there is going to be population pressures and people will be pushed onto virgin forestland. We need to rapidly find ways to accomodate these population in cities. Otherwise, biodiversity loss is a given.

Pointing fingers at biofuels is not going to solve the problem.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> why are there subsistence farmers in 21st century

This is the question to ask.

With or without biofuel cultivation, there is going to be population pressures and people will be pushed onto virgin forestland. We need to rapidly find ways to accomodate these population in cities. Otherwise, biodiversity loss is a given.

Pointing fingers at biofuels is not going to solve the problem.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Comment #6 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/ Sat, 25 Oct 2008 04:54:24 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/the-misadventure-capitalist/6 I tend to agree, vakibs

that subsistance farming (along with hunting and gathering) can't continue much longer on this stressed biosphere. They are however, the only way to obtain food for the vast majority of the world's poor. We have to strive to reduce poverty via environmentally benign, sustainable agricultural technologies.

Your link to the Amazon deforestation chart covered 2000-2005. Biofuel production just started hitting its stride in 2005. From above:

Biofuels consumed the vast bulk of the world's growth in cereals and vegetable oil between 2005 and 2007, requiring the world to deplete stocks to meet growing food demand.

Corn ethanol alone this year consumed 35,000 square miles of U.S prime cropland. As eriqa says, it's all about displacement. The food that went into our gas tanks created a 35,000 square mile hole that has been filled by some farmer somewhere in the world. It would take about eleven hours at highway speeds to drive around that hole. Biofuels barely represent 2% of global liquid fuel supplies. The more we produce the worse the destruction gets, the worse food supplies will be stressed.

35,000 square miles of prime cropland = 2% reduction in U.S. oil use.

Swapping a Subaru Outback for a Prius = 50% reduction in oil use, and no carbon sink destruction.

That's 2% VS 50%. Efficiency dwarfs biofuels as a way to reduce fossil fuel use. Biofuels are another stress on the planet's already collapsing biosphere and our food supplies.

It is unbecoming to take logical leaps, and point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

I would suggest that it is unbecoming to take illogical leaps, and not point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> I tend to agree, vakibs

that subsistance farming (along with hunting and gathering) can't continue much longer on this stressed biosphere. They are however, the only way to obtain food for the vast majority of the world's poor. We have to strive to reduce poverty via environmentally benign, sustainable agricultural technologies.

Your link to the Amazon deforestation chart covered 2000-2005. Biofuel production just started hitting its stride in 2005. From above:

Biofuels consumed the vast bulk of the world's growth in cereals and vegetable oil between 2005 and 2007, requiring the world to deplete stocks to meet growing food demand.

Corn ethanol alone this year consumed 35,000 square miles of U.S prime cropland. As eriqa says, it's all about displacement. The food that went into our gas tanks created a 35,000 square mile hole that has been filled by some farmer somewhere in the world. It would take about eleven hours at highway speeds to drive around that hole. Biofuels barely represent 2% of global liquid fuel supplies. The more we produce the worse the destruction gets, the worse food supplies will be stressed.

35,000 square miles of prime cropland = 2% reduction in U.S. oil use.

Swapping a Subaru Outback for a Prius = 50% reduction in oil use, and no carbon sink destruction.

That's 2% VS 50%. Efficiency dwarfs biofuels as a way to reduce fossil fuel use. Biofuels are another stress on the planet's already collapsing biosphere and our food supplies.

It is unbecoming to take logical leaps, and point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

I would suggest that it is unbecoming to take illogical leaps, and not point fingers at biofuel cultivation.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]>