<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Once subsidies and tariffs are removed, watch out]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Tom Philpott http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:18:52 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/1 Smart post...

... but the "bridge to electrification" has two weak points. First, if cellulosic does break through, then it will retain the support of the farm lobby, which may be enough to keep the ethanol tariff in place. And if Big Ag keeps its grip on ethanol in a switch to cellulosic, then expect corn stover (waste) to be the dominant feedstock -- meaning more environmentally ruinous corn production.

Second, of course, there's coal gasification. As DR well knows, the 35 billion gallons minimum includes "alternative fuels," ie liquid coal. There's a huge lobby behind this, and Tom Friedman himself has arrayed his rhetorical girth behind it. The bridge to electrification could break there, too.

Victual Reality

]]> Smart post...

... but the "bridge to electrification" has two weak points. First, if cellulosic does break through, then it will retain the support of the farm lobby, which may be enough to keep the ethanol tariff in place. And if Big Ag keeps its grip on ethanol in a switch to cellulosic, then expect corn stover (waste) to be the dominant feedstock -- meaning more environmentally ruinous corn production.

Second, of course, there's coal gasification. As DR well knows, the 35 billion gallons minimum includes "alternative fuels," ie liquid coal. There's a huge lobby behind this, and Tom Friedman himself has arrayed his rhetorical girth behind it. The bridge to electrification could break there, too.

Victual Reality

]]> Comment #2 by mulad http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:21:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/2 Other feedstocks

Corn is not all that great of a source for ethanol.  Ethanol needs to be disconnected from corn.  Using existing techniques, it would probably be more effective to use sugar cane in the south and sugar beets in the north.  Then of course there's cellulosic ethanol and other techniques still being developed.

But personally, I got a diesel car when I was needing new wheels last year.  Biodiesel makes more sense in a lot of ways, but unfortunately it's still nowhere near as common as ethanol.

]]> Other feedstocks

Corn is not all that great of a source for ethanol.  Ethanol needs to be disconnected from corn.  Using existing techniques, it would probably be more effective to use sugar cane in the south and sugar beets in the north.  Then of course there's cellulosic ethanol and other techniques still being developed.

But personally, I got a diesel car when I was needing new wheels last year.  Biodiesel makes more sense in a lot of ways, but unfortunately it's still nowhere near as common as ethanol.

]]> Comment #3 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:48:28 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/3 Good points, Tom.

My hope is that we will soon see the development and widespread availability of "tribrids" that have an electric motor and will also accept gas, ethanol, or any other liquid fuel, in any proportion.

I think once electric transport gets even that foothold, battery technology will improve, the cars will get more and more of their mileage from the electric motor, and it will become increasingly obvious that the electrical portion of the fuel is the cheapest, cleanest, and easiest.

Soon enough, a fully electric car will come along and the tribrids will be abandoned.

That's the hope, anyway.

www.grist.org

]]> Good points, Tom.

My hope is that we will soon see the development and widespread availability of "tribrids" that have an electric motor and will also accept gas, ethanol, or any other liquid fuel, in any proportion.

I think once electric transport gets even that foothold, battery technology will improve, the cars will get more and more of their mileage from the electric motor, and it will become increasingly obvious that the electrical portion of the fuel is the cheapest, cleanest, and easiest.

Soon enough, a fully electric car will come along and the tribrids will be abandoned.

That's the hope, anyway.

www.grist.org

]]> Comment #4 by meander http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:54:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/4 Ethanol or meat?

American consumers haven't yet experienced one of the side-effects of ethanol:  higher food prices, especially for meat and dairy (and possibly soft drinks).  

Keith Good's farm policy e-mail newsletter (sign up at farmpolicy.com) had this tidbit yesterday:

Mary Lu Carnevale, writing yesterday at The Washington Wire Blog (Wall Street Journal) noted that, "President Bush's plan to power up ethanol production is raising red flags among the nation's poultry and meat producers. They worry that rapidly rising ethanol production will further push up prices for corn, the main animal feed grain.

"'We estimate that ethanol demand has already increased the price of chicken by six cents per pound wholesale,' said the National Chicken Council's chief economist William P. Roenigk. 'If government continues to push corn out of livestock and poultry feed and into the energy supply, the cost of producing food will only increase.'"





]]> Ethanol or meat?

American consumers haven't yet experienced one of the side-effects of ethanol:  higher food prices, especially for meat and dairy (and possibly soft drinks).  

Keith Good's farm policy e-mail newsletter (sign up at farmpolicy.com) had this tidbit yesterday:

Mary Lu Carnevale, writing yesterday at The Washington Wire Blog (Wall Street Journal) noted that, "President Bush's plan to power up ethanol production is raising red flags among the nation's poultry and meat producers. They worry that rapidly rising ethanol production will further push up prices for corn, the main animal feed grain.

"'We estimate that ethanol demand has already increased the price of chicken by six cents per pound wholesale,' said the National Chicken Council's chief economist William P. Roenigk. 'If government continues to push corn out of livestock and poultry feed and into the energy supply, the cost of producing food will only increase.'"





]]> Comment #5 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:38:50 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/5 Real smart and well articulated

and I'm not saying that just because it reflects my perspective exactly. My latest post (once it is up) reinforces this one completely by coincidence. Pat, pat, pat.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Real smart and well articulated

and I'm not saying that just because it reflects my perspective exactly. My latest post (once it is up) reinforces this one completely by coincidence. Pat, pat, pat.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #6 by bookerly http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:10:00 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/6 When the riots start

   Good points!!  The WaPo had this to say

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007...

   If they continue to push ethanol, it will be very interesting to see the higher food prices all over...

patrick

]]> When the riots start

   Good points!!  The WaPo had this to say

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007...

   If they continue to push ethanol, it will be very interesting to see the higher food prices all over...

patrick

]]> Comment #7 by wavey http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/ Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:37:12 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-ethanol-love-fest-will-not-last/7 David Graves

No, biodiesel is not a good alternative! It has been good as a cute way of making a point about the diesel we get out of the ground (climate change, peak oil, etc.) However, a quick look at how much diesel we burn (and don't forget the close cousin heating oil) versus how much say soybean oil comes from an acre, (minus fossil fuel used for fertilizer, farming and harvesting the stuff, etc.) and one quickly realizes this is no solution to anything. Then we read in the Wall St. Journal about clearing of irreplacable tropical forests in places like Borneo for oil palm plantations, and one becomes resistant to the idea that promotion of biodiesel is anything but a giant distraction, with some downside.

]]> David Graves

No, biodiesel is not a good alternative! It has been good as a cute way of making a point about the diesel we get out of the ground (climate change, peak oil, etc.) However, a quick look at how much diesel we burn (and don't forget the close cousin heating oil) versus how much say soybean oil comes from an acre, (minus fossil fuel used for fertilizer, farming and harvesting the stuff, etc.) and one quickly realizes this is no solution to anything. Then we read in the Wall St. Journal about clearing of irreplacable tropical forests in places like Borneo for oil palm plantations, and one becomes resistant to the idea that promotion of biodiesel is anything but a giant distraction, with some downside.

]]>