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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Natural gas utilities are no friends of Big Coal]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:33:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Another nice thing about natural gas</strong></p><p>I don't know that this is universally true of all natural gas plants, but I know that at least some types of natural gas generators (specifically microturbines and fuelcells) can be modified pretty easily to run on methane from biofermentation.</p><p>
Given the enormous investment we already have in a gas infrastructure and the convenience of moving energy around this way, it seems likely that burning some kind of gas will be with us well into the future.</p>
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				<p><strong>Another nice thing about natural gas</strong></p><p>I don't know that this is universally true of all natural gas plants, but I know that at least some types of natural gas generators (specifically microturbines and fuelcells) can be modified pretty easily to run on methane from biofermentation.</p><p>
Given the enormous investment we already have in a gas infrastructure and the convenience of moving energy around this way, it seems likely that burning some kind of gas will be with us well into the future.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:07:50 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>And efficiency</strong></p><p>GreenE is right (gas turbines can also run on methane from digesters, which I think is what GreenE is referring to). &nbsp;</p><p>
But perhaps the more important point is that gas-dominated utilities are a pretty big beneficiary of efficiency, since efficiency tends to be sited close to the load, for the simple reason that if your power plant is in the boonies, you're bound to throw away all your waste heat, whereas if it's close the load, it's bound to recover it. &nbsp;And if you're building local power, it's likely to be gas. &nbsp;(If you don't believe me, try to convince your local homeowners association to install a coal-fired boiler in your basement. &nbsp;Or nuke.)</p><p>
This has historically made gas-utilities big friends to those of us who fight against the electric utilities. &nbsp;Enemy of my enemy, indeed.</p>
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				<p><strong>And efficiency</strong></p><p>GreenE is right (gas turbines can also run on methane from digesters, which I think is what GreenE is referring to). &nbsp;</p><p>
But perhaps the more important point is that gas-dominated utilities are a pretty big beneficiary of efficiency, since efficiency tends to be sited close to the load, for the simple reason that if your power plant is in the boonies, you're bound to throw away all your waste heat, whereas if it's close the load, it's bound to recover it. &nbsp;And if you're building local power, it's likely to be gas. &nbsp;(If you don't believe me, try to convince your local homeowners association to install a coal-fired boiler in your basement. &nbsp;Or nuke.)</p><p>
This has historically made gas-utilities big friends to those of us who fight against the electric utilities. &nbsp;Enemy of my enemy, indeed.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by John Fish Kurmann</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:27:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>But what if...<p>...<a href="http://resourceinsights.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-coming-home-heating-crisis-could.html" rel="nofollow">North American natural gas production is about to go off a cliff into decline, as a growing number of observers predict? Does it really make sense to become increase our reliance on energy sources that will soon have to be imported from often dangerous and hostile parts of the world--if they can be gotten at all?<p>
Which is not an argument in favor of coal or nuclear but rather an argument in favor of dramatically higher efficiency in all energy use and a rapid transition to truly renewable energy sources.

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>But what if...<p>...<a href="http://resourceinsights.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-coming-home-heating-crisis-could.html" rel="nofollow">North American natural gas production is about to go off a cliff into decline, as a growing number of observers predict? Does it really make sense to become increase our reliance on energy sources that will soon have to be imported from often dangerous and hostile parts of the world--if they can be gotten at all?<p>
Which is not an argument in favor of coal or nuclear but rather an argument in favor of dramatically higher efficiency in all energy use and a rapid transition to truly renewable energy sources.

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:31:16 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>An Austin Experiment</strong></p><p>Going along Sean's train of thought, there was a large company wanting to build on the west side of Austin near the lakes, 3-M and/or Schlumberger I think but don't hold me to it because this was early 80's. &nbsp;</p><p>
The City (Austin owns its own utility), a regional (LCRA, hydro but 80% western coal), and a major (TXU) came in with a bidding war to sell power to the new facility, which was hundreds of thousands of square feet. &nbsp;</p><p>
I guess they reviewed all the proposals but went with a gas company to build a pipeline instead. A small two-stage Co-Gen was installed, with some waste heat used for a large heat pump. Solar arrays were mounted all over the rooftop and interestingly, along a roadway where you could see another couple acres of solar panels mounted on the ground (Rt 2222 &amp; FM 620).</p><p>
3-M ended up negotiating with the three utility bidders to sell back excess power back to their grids. Nice.</p><p>
Just so you know, some states have utility fuel surcharges based on the price of natural gas, not coal or whatever they're using (nice if you have hydro!). At least in Texas the price of coal doesn't matter unless it gets higher on a BTU basis. Heck man, several old utilities still burn cheap and dirty lignite.</p><p>
The benefit of what 3-M did was to diversity away from the grid and use natural gas in an extremely efficient manner including HVAC. Not sure of its present status but remember, this project was done in the early 80's ... strange people are just catching on now. &nbsp;-sam

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>An Austin Experiment</strong></p><p>Going along Sean's train of thought, there was a large company wanting to build on the west side of Austin near the lakes, 3-M and/or Schlumberger I think but don't hold me to it because this was early 80's. &nbsp;</p><p>
The City (Austin owns its own utility), a regional (LCRA, hydro but 80% western coal), and a major (TXU) came in with a bidding war to sell power to the new facility, which was hundreds of thousands of square feet. &nbsp;</p><p>
I guess they reviewed all the proposals but went with a gas company to build a pipeline instead. A small two-stage Co-Gen was installed, with some waste heat used for a large heat pump. Solar arrays were mounted all over the rooftop and interestingly, along a roadway where you could see another couple acres of solar panels mounted on the ground (Rt 2222 &amp; FM 620).</p><p>
3-M ended up negotiating with the three utility bidders to sell back excess power back to their grids. Nice.</p><p>
Just so you know, some states have utility fuel surcharges based on the price of natural gas, not coal or whatever they're using (nice if you have hydro!). At least in Texas the price of coal doesn't matter unless it gets higher on a BTU basis. Heck man, several old utilities still burn cheap and dirty lignite.</p><p>
The benefit of what 3-M did was to diversity away from the grid and use natural gas in an extremely efficient manner including HVAC. Not sure of its present status but remember, this project was done in the early 80's ... strange people are just catching on now. &nbsp;-sam

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 23:02:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Good post David</strong></p><p>Good to know that fractured agendas are not unique to environmental progressives and that Big Energy is not a seamless lobbying machine. Thanks for keeping us informed.</p><p>
And thanks also to Sean, who constantly reminds us that the corporate driving energy of ensuring profit for senior executives shareholders can sometimes be harnessed to work in favor of environmental benefit and the public good.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Good post David</strong></p><p>Good to know that fractured agendas are not unique to environmental progressives and that Big Energy is not a seamless lobbying machine. Thanks for keeping us informed.</p><p>
And thanks also to Sean, who constantly reminds us that the corporate driving energy of ensuring profit for senior executives shareholders can sometimes be harnessed to work in favor of environmental benefit and the public good.

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by mysticalatheist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 01:25:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Language</strong></p><p>"Remember those xenophobic ads Sunflower ran in against Gov. Sebelius in Kansas?"</p><p>
"What? ...Err, no." </p><p>
Please watch sentence construction. Is Sunflower a person? of a field full of? On the internet and in the global market place, where so many non-english speakers produce nonsensical sentences, a poorly constructed sentence can derail a reader, and puts native english speakers in danger of losing that audience member, merely because the author has not made the effort to write carefully. </p><p>
Try this: <br>
"Remember the xenophobic ads produced by [or for] the candidate Sunflower, in his [or her] race against Gov. Sebelius in Kansas?" </p><p>
Please remember that intonation carries much of the meaning in casual speech, so that if you use casual constructions in your written work, your meaning is endangered because intonation is lost. </p><p>
Although this comment is directed at a particular author and sentence, I would not have written it, except that poorly constructed sentences are so common. </p><p>
Kudos to the author for otherwise informative research and commentary. 

<p>Stephen Alrich Marshall</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Language</strong></p><p>"Remember those xenophobic ads Sunflower ran in against Gov. Sebelius in Kansas?"</p><p>
"What? ...Err, no." </p><p>
Please watch sentence construction. Is Sunflower a person? of a field full of? On the internet and in the global market place, where so many non-english speakers produce nonsensical sentences, a poorly constructed sentence can derail a reader, and puts native english speakers in danger of losing that audience member, merely because the author has not made the effort to write carefully. </p><p>
Try this: <br>
"Remember the xenophobic ads produced by [or for] the candidate Sunflower, in his [or her] race against Gov. Sebelius in Kansas?" </p><p>
Please remember that intonation carries much of the meaning in casual speech, so that if you use casual constructions in your written work, your meaning is endangered because intonation is lost. </p><p>
Although this comment is directed at a particular author and sentence, I would not have written it, except that poorly constructed sentences are so common. </p><p>
Kudos to the author for otherwise informative research and commentary. 

<p>Stephen Alrich Marshall</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:50:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sunflower</strong></p><p>Is Sunflower a person?</p><p>
Yes, actually, under the law of the land. &nbsp;Corporations have personhood. &nbsp;Sunflower is an energy company, IIRC.</p>
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				<p><strong>Sunflower</strong></p><p>Is Sunflower a person?</p><p>
Yes, actually, under the law of the land. &nbsp;Corporations have personhood. &nbsp;Sunflower is an energy company, IIRC.</p>
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