<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A new piece on the insanity that is U.S. ethanol policy]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Ron Steenblik http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:27:02 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/1 Thanks, Joseph

I read your complete article over at Salon as well. Good stuff.

It will take a few more years, I fear, before people with real political influence finally take notice at what the U.S. Congress and the President have wrought. But by then it will be too late.

At least, I'm glad to see, the cost of the RFS is starting to sink in, albeit slowly. Over at (brave) KARE television, in Minneapolis, they have interviewed University of Minnesota research fellow Doug Tiffany, who notes that the government will most likely have to expand ethanol subsidies to support the huge increase in production.

No sh*t, Sherlock!

"I think some of the subsidies will have to be reformulated so that they favor the processes that use cellulose," he said.

How much will that cost taxpayers? Tiffany said numbers like $100 billion, or higher, are realistic.

"These numbers are not impossible with respect to the kind of magnitudes that are mentioned in this bill," he said.

At current levels of subsidies, annual use of 15 billion gallons a year of corn ethanol would cost the U.S. Treasury, just in tax credits, $7.5 billion per year.

For the remainder, we have already seen proposals for a new tax credit, worth $1.01 per gallon, for ethanol made from crop residue and other sources of plant cellulose. That fell out of the Energy Bill, but may be included in the Farm Bill. If such a payment survives, then we are looking at an extra $21 billion in tax credits for cellulosic ethanol (much of which could still end up being produced from corn -- just other parts of the corn plant than the kernels) per year by 2022. That adds up to $28.5 billion per year.

By the way, there is a moderated, on-line debate on biofuels that U of California's Dan Sperling and yours truly have started over at the International Transport Forum's web site.

]]> Thanks, Joseph

I read your complete article over at Salon as well. Good stuff.

It will take a few more years, I fear, before people with real political influence finally take notice at what the U.S. Congress and the President have wrought. But by then it will be too late.

At least, I'm glad to see, the cost of the RFS is starting to sink in, albeit slowly. Over at (brave) KARE television, in Minneapolis, they have interviewed University of Minnesota research fellow Doug Tiffany, who notes that the government will most likely have to expand ethanol subsidies to support the huge increase in production.

No sh*t, Sherlock!

"I think some of the subsidies will have to be reformulated so that they favor the processes that use cellulose," he said.

How much will that cost taxpayers? Tiffany said numbers like $100 billion, or higher, are realistic.

"These numbers are not impossible with respect to the kind of magnitudes that are mentioned in this bill," he said.

At current levels of subsidies, annual use of 15 billion gallons a year of corn ethanol would cost the U.S. Treasury, just in tax credits, $7.5 billion per year.

For the remainder, we have already seen proposals for a new tax credit, worth $1.01 per gallon, for ethanol made from crop residue and other sources of plant cellulose. That fell out of the Energy Bill, but may be included in the Farm Bill. If such a payment survives, then we are looking at an extra $21 billion in tax credits for cellulosic ethanol (much of which could still end up being produced from corn -- just other parts of the corn plant than the kernels) per year by 2022. That adds up to $28.5 billion per year.

By the way, there is a moderated, on-line debate on biofuels that U of California's Dan Sperling and yours truly have started over at the International Transport Forum's web site.

]]> Comment #2 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:17:13 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/2 Income tax preferred over gas tax?

Apparently people would rather pay more in income taxes, via subsidies, instead of paying more at the pump, in the way of gas taxes...or even just higher prices, as the ethanol is allegedly a way to keep the price of gasoline down.

]]> Income tax preferred over gas tax?

Apparently people would rather pay more in income taxes, via subsidies, instead of paying more at the pump, in the way of gas taxes...or even just higher prices, as the ethanol is allegedly a way to keep the price of gasoline down.

]]> Comment #3 by caniscandida http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:22:54 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/3 corn cartoon; meat-eaters on the march

Thanks, Joseph, this is a useful synthesis of observations.

The cartoon picture of the ear of corn saying, "I'm in everything," is perhaps not the best choice of an illustration.  For one thing, the ear of corn, in those cheerful John Deere colors, looks cute and huggable.  That is not itself a problem; corn is a food that many people like to eat, after all, and the individual ears of corn can hardly be blamed for the global woes caused by the people who market corn as a commodity.  Still, it is perhaps distracting.

For another, the comment "I'm in everything" would seem more basically to pertain to corn as a commodity that is presently fundamental to the meat industry and the prepared foods industry, and not so much to ethanol production.  There is no inaccuracy or contradiction, but again there is the possibility of distraction, in the context of ethanol.

A disturbing, though not really surprising, bit of news is that last sentence in the second quote from the International Herald Tribune: "Demand for grain is increasing ... as the population of upwardly mobile meat-eaters grows."  It had not struck me that that population is growing; but on reflexion, sure, it seems obvious.

As I observed on other occasions, those of us who are engaged in the promotion of animal welfare and animal rights are still not acting effectively.

Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.

]]> corn cartoon; meat-eaters on the march

Thanks, Joseph, this is a useful synthesis of observations.

The cartoon picture of the ear of corn saying, "I'm in everything," is perhaps not the best choice of an illustration.  For one thing, the ear of corn, in those cheerful John Deere colors, looks cute and huggable.  That is not itself a problem; corn is a food that many people like to eat, after all, and the individual ears of corn can hardly be blamed for the global woes caused by the people who market corn as a commodity.  Still, it is perhaps distracting.

For another, the comment "I'm in everything" would seem more basically to pertain to corn as a commodity that is presently fundamental to the meat industry and the prepared foods industry, and not so much to ethanol production.  There is no inaccuracy or contradiction, but again there is the possibility of distraction, in the context of ethanol.

A disturbing, though not really surprising, bit of news is that last sentence in the second quote from the International Herald Tribune: "Demand for grain is increasing ... as the population of upwardly mobile meat-eaters grows."  It had not struck me that that population is growing; but on reflexion, sure, it seems obvious.

As I observed on other occasions, those of us who are engaged in the promotion of animal welfare and animal rights are still not acting effectively.

Chickens are our cousins! So are fish! So are other sentient animals! Let us learn to be kind.

]]> Comment #4 by Totem http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:14:45 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/4 Prediction for Ethanol in "Green" States

The following is based on my blog, but I thought it was relevant to share here.  

Top It Off With Ganja

The term Green Revolution is not used much these days with the new era of being green as a necessity, regardless of opinion on the environmental matters, the idea of hemp and auto fuel has rekindled my interest in the term and thinking about hemp to fuel the turning of my auto's wheels.  Yes, I'm talking about hempanol.  With the concern that corn crops used for animal feed and human consumption may now be used to create ethanol, why not grow hemp?  Hemp will certainly have its opponents such as the oil industry, Rush Limbaugh, and others that may claim that the hemp crop will lower their smoking supplies.  The truth is that Hemp has such low levels of THC that even my even the most  proficient puffers would likely pass out from oxygen deprivation before catching a buzz from commercial hemp (sorry bro').  I predict some states will legalize the agricultural growing of commercial hemp where some other states wouldn't fathom the idea (ya know, if officials want to be re-elected in certain States).  Although I predict some Darwin awards would be in order for freakers seeking a buzz from the hooka tail pipe of a Hemp-fueled SUV's exhaust, I think hemp would make a great green fuel while we transition to the alternative and hyvrid electric and hydrogen fuels of the future.  

Instead of grades like regular and premium we could have grades such as skunk (regular), ganja-grade (mid-grade), and sense (premium).  I bet the fumes would make the morning commute to work much more enjoyable. I currently keep my car vents closed to keep out the nasty vapors floating around on the roads, but I would open my car vents to let in the sweet aroma of hempanol.  

Just imagine a drive through the country and seeing rolling hills of hemp next to corn and wheat.  I think the first hemp powered vehicle should be called the Franklin, in honor of Benjamin Franklin who saw the utility of hemp back in the 1700's.  

Kyle Baker

Totem


]]> Prediction for Ethanol in "Green" States

The following is based on my blog, but I thought it was relevant to share here.  

Top It Off With Ganja

The term Green Revolution is not used much these days with the new era of being green as a necessity, regardless of opinion on the environmental matters, the idea of hemp and auto fuel has rekindled my interest in the term and thinking about hemp to fuel the turning of my auto's wheels.  Yes, I'm talking about hempanol.  With the concern that corn crops used for animal feed and human consumption may now be used to create ethanol, why not grow hemp?  Hemp will certainly have its opponents such as the oil industry, Rush Limbaugh, and others that may claim that the hemp crop will lower their smoking supplies.  The truth is that Hemp has such low levels of THC that even my even the most  proficient puffers would likely pass out from oxygen deprivation before catching a buzz from commercial hemp (sorry bro').  I predict some states will legalize the agricultural growing of commercial hemp where some other states wouldn't fathom the idea (ya know, if officials want to be re-elected in certain States).  Although I predict some Darwin awards would be in order for freakers seeking a buzz from the hooka tail pipe of a Hemp-fueled SUV's exhaust, I think hemp would make a great green fuel while we transition to the alternative and hyvrid electric and hydrogen fuels of the future.  

Instead of grades like regular and premium we could have grades such as skunk (regular), ganja-grade (mid-grade), and sense (premium).  I bet the fumes would make the morning commute to work much more enjoyable. I currently keep my car vents closed to keep out the nasty vapors floating around on the roads, but I would open my car vents to let in the sweet aroma of hempanol.  

Just imagine a drive through the country and seeing rolling hills of hemp next to corn and wheat.  I think the first hemp powered vehicle should be called the Franklin, in honor of Benjamin Franklin who saw the utility of hemp back in the 1700's.  

Kyle Baker

Totem


]]> Comment #5 by justlou http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:41:07 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/5 Some Conservatives Agree

that it is insane:
http://www.cei.org/pdf/5532.pdf

All for now, the river calls, it is boatin' time!
Have a great day everyone.
Lou


]]> Some Conservatives Agree

that it is insane:
http://www.cei.org/pdf/5532.pdf

All for now, the river calls, it is boatin' time!
Have a great day everyone.
Lou


]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:42:21 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/6 Great job Joe

We have to get this blog activism off the blog into the main stream media.  You are doing it.  Along with some others here.

Can reason win out over lobbying and political corruption?  The best chance for that seems to come from blog land.  Even big shots like Amory Lovins, who have a lot of exposure, can't seem to get it right.

They always seem to slip up.  Amory keeps touting hydrogen.  Al Gore can't seem to bring himself to focus on specific solutions.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Great job Joe

We have to get this blog activism off the blog into the main stream media.  You are doing it.  Along with some others here.

Can reason win out over lobbying and political corruption?  The best chance for that seems to come from blog land.  Even big shots like Amory Lovins, who have a lot of exposure, can't seem to get it right.

They always seem to slip up.  Amory keeps touting hydrogen.  Al Gore can't seem to bring himself to focus on specific solutions.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #7 by KatyH http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:33:17 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-corn-supremacy1/7 Ethanol a piece in the transition

Ethanol isn't the worst idea in the world of the "green revolution."  It gets bashed regularly, but really shouldn't in this transition period we're going through...as long as it's not the only and final answer.  A little boost in the American ag economy and a new found attention to vehicle emissions is just what needs to be on the minds of global citizens.  But until policy permits lighter tariffs on alt fuel and the products to make it (along with subsidies on cellulosic research), we're left out of the benefits of a little environmental globalization.    

And I like the corn picture.  It made me laugh.

Katy
FuelMonger.com

KatyH FuelMonger.com Pragmatic. Not granola.


]]> Ethanol a piece in the transition

Ethanol isn't the worst idea in the world of the "green revolution."  It gets bashed regularly, but really shouldn't in this transition period we're going through...as long as it's not the only and final answer.  A little boost in the American ag economy and a new found attention to vehicle emissions is just what needs to be on the minds of global citizens.  But until policy permits lighter tariffs on alt fuel and the products to make it (along with subsidies on cellulosic research), we're left out of the benefits of a little environmental globalization.    

And I like the corn picture.  It made me laugh.

Katy
FuelMonger.com

KatyH FuelMonger.com Pragmatic. Not granola.


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