<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Is there really so much money in environmental devastation that it can’t be stopped?]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:10:23 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/1 The only good news about tar sands...

...from my reading at theoildrum.com is that it seems to be getting more and more expensive, and that they really cannot deliver more than a few million barrels per day, at maximum.  If you look at  my most recent post about tar sands and follow some of the links, you can see some unbelievable devastation being caused.

Just to add to the misery, until recently Shell was going to increase pollution in the Great Lakes in order to accommodate the crud that comes from the Canadian tar sands.  They claim they won't now, but people will have to stay vigilant.  Tar sands are in the "too-awful-to-contemplate" category of oil sources that peak oil may tilt the economy toward, including coal-to-liquids, oil shale, and other kinds of goop.

]]> The only good news about tar sands...

...from my reading at theoildrum.com is that it seems to be getting more and more expensive, and that they really cannot deliver more than a few million barrels per day, at maximum.  If you look at  my most recent post about tar sands and follow some of the links, you can see some unbelievable devastation being caused.

Just to add to the misery, until recently Shell was going to increase pollution in the Great Lakes in order to accommodate the crud that comes from the Canadian tar sands.  They claim they won't now, but people will have to stay vigilant.  Tar sands are in the "too-awful-to-contemplate" category of oil sources that peak oil may tilt the economy toward, including coal-to-liquids, oil shale, and other kinds of goop.

]]> Comment #2 by TheGreenMiles http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:34:43 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/2 Gore on tar sands

From his interview with Rolling Stone:
Are you at least glad that Bush now refers to our "addiction to foreign oil"?
I don't like the addiction metaphor, because it carries with it a sense of powerlessness. But there are some aspects of the metaphor that are accurate in ways that Bush doesn't intend. The spiral of increasingly self-destructive behavior - spending more and more for supplies of a substance that is harder and harder to get - is just bizarre. I caused a stir in Alberta, Canada, recently when someone asked me about the advisability of trying to extract oil by processing the tar sands they have up there. I said, "Well, junkies find veins in their toes" [laughs]. The then-premier of Alberta lost it - and hasn't recovered since.

Join the discussion on global warming, recycling, and organic beer at The Green Miles!



]]> Gore on tar sands

From his interview with Rolling Stone:
Are you at least glad that Bush now refers to our "addiction to foreign oil"?
I don't like the addiction metaphor, because it carries with it a sense of powerlessness. But there are some aspects of the metaphor that are accurate in ways that Bush doesn't intend. The spiral of increasingly self-destructive behavior - spending more and more for supplies of a substance that is harder and harder to get - is just bizarre. I caused a stir in Alberta, Canada, recently when someone asked me about the advisability of trying to extract oil by processing the tar sands they have up there. I said, "Well, junkies find veins in their toes" [laughs]. The then-premier of Alberta lost it - and hasn't recovered since.

Join the discussion on global warming, recycling, and organic beer at The Green Miles!



]]> Comment #3 by justlou http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:13:37 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/3 And if we were in major league baseball

all of us would have been using steroids too.  

We are all a part of that "malign giant".  

So why the big fight over ANWR and now the look the other way response to tar sands?  

]]> And if we were in major league baseball

all of us would have been using steroids too.  

We are all a part of that "malign giant".  

So why the big fight over ANWR and now the look the other way response to tar sands?  

]]> Comment #4 by Sam Wells http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:48:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/4 Pogo Moment

I can't understand why we're criticizing other countries when we're one of the worst - and last I checked, Canada was a sovereign country.

Have you folks ever seen a lignite mine right here in the US?  A copper mine?  A Powder River coal mine?  An Appalachian mountain with its top blown off?  Ever see a refinery complex that is more than five miles long?  

The moral hubris is shocking in the extreme, how some folks can be "holier than thou" without admitting that we in the US are the ones who are worst of all.  

Onward through the fog

]]> Pogo Moment

I can't understand why we're criticizing other countries when we're one of the worst - and last I checked, Canada was a sovereign country.

Have you folks ever seen a lignite mine right here in the US?  A copper mine?  A Powder River coal mine?  An Appalachian mountain with its top blown off?  Ever see a refinery complex that is more than five miles long?  

The moral hubris is shocking in the extreme, how some folks can be "holier than thou" without admitting that we in the US are the ones who are worst of all.  

Onward through the fog

]]> Comment #5 by In the belly http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:08:29 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/5 Um, have you missed the self-criticism?

I still don't get where your sensitivity to criticism of Canadian tar sand development comes from.  There is plenty of discussion--and criticism--about US destruction on these (virtual) pages.  

Tar sand development really sucks.  It shouldn't be immune from condemnation because it is in Canada.

Besides, I think there is a pretty clearly implied criticism of the US, since in effect we are (again) exporting our CO2 emissions.  And since much of the direction for the Canadian tar sand activities come from corporate headquarters in--you guessed it--Houston.

]]> Um, have you missed the self-criticism?

I still don't get where your sensitivity to criticism of Canadian tar sand development comes from.  There is plenty of discussion--and criticism--about US destruction on these (virtual) pages.  

Tar sand development really sucks.  It shouldn't be immune from condemnation because it is in Canada.

Besides, I think there is a pretty clearly implied criticism of the US, since in effect we are (again) exporting our CO2 emissions.  And since much of the direction for the Canadian tar sand activities come from corporate headquarters in--you guessed it--Houston.

]]> Comment #6 by Martha Hagood http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:32:35 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/6 "the inevitable emissions tax..."

Just minutes ago I read on this site that a future emissions tax will make new coal plants in Nevada too expensive. Who's emissions tax (ours or Canada's) would prevent the importation of this oil and how high would it have to be to make the oil unprofitable? And is that the best way to stop it?

]]> "the inevitable emissions tax..."

Just minutes ago I read on this site that a future emissions tax will make new coal plants in Nevada too expensive. Who's emissions tax (ours or Canada's) would prevent the importation of this oil and how high would it have to be to make the oil unprofitable? And is that the best way to stop it?

]]> Comment #7 by Sam Wells http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:00:54 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/7 Tar, nickel, gold, why stop there?

I think many of the Grist readers want to say what is good or bad in other countries without reflecting on our own, but it's a free world here and you all have your opinions - not that they mean anything.

Canada has been ripping up thousands of acres of trees and ground and until recently, we loved it.  They provided a steady source of building materials and strategic metals as well as being a major hydrocarbon trader, especially in natural gas.

Having an opinion about something is cool but when you get on your high horse to berate people without any hope of doing any good, you are basically ineffectual and wasting your time. You can't stop the trade, slap a tax on it, or anything - it must be very frustrating.  

My philosophy is to fix what we have at home and lead by example.  If you don't care to join that cause, so be it. Like Don Quixote, I'm sure there are many windmills you can try to subdue.

Onward through the fog

]]> Tar, nickel, gold, why stop there?

I think many of the Grist readers want to say what is good or bad in other countries without reflecting on our own, but it's a free world here and you all have your opinions - not that they mean anything.

Canada has been ripping up thousands of acres of trees and ground and until recently, we loved it.  They provided a steady source of building materials and strategic metals as well as being a major hydrocarbon trader, especially in natural gas.

Having an opinion about something is cool but when you get on your high horse to berate people without any hope of doing any good, you are basically ineffectual and wasting your time. You can't stop the trade, slap a tax on it, or anything - it must be very frustrating.  

My philosophy is to fix what we have at home and lead by example.  If you don't care to join that cause, so be it. Like Don Quixote, I'm sure there are many windmills you can try to subdue.

Onward through the fog

]]> Comment #8 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:01:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/8 Nuclear refining

This is being considered for canadian tar sands refining.  Natural gas provides the steam to separate the crude from the sand now.  And gas is rising in price rapidly.

This is what the Cheney energy plan is.  a transition from liquid oil guzzling to nuclear refined tar sands, coal, and eventually fuel farmed liquid fuel.

No renewables, no plugin hybrids, just gas guzzling as far as the corporatist bottomliners can see.  Of course they only see one financial quarter at a time.

Why all the diversion tactics, like clean coal and the hydrogen economy?  To pretend they are pursuing a "practical" research program, as opposed to wind, solar, biogas, wave power, and a distributed smart grid.  Paint us as the impractical dreamers, while they pursue fossil fuel empire.  Reframe our issue, frame us as kooks.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Nuclear refining

This is being considered for canadian tar sands refining.  Natural gas provides the steam to separate the crude from the sand now.  And gas is rising in price rapidly.

This is what the Cheney energy plan is.  a transition from liquid oil guzzling to nuclear refined tar sands, coal, and eventually fuel farmed liquid fuel.

No renewables, no plugin hybrids, just gas guzzling as far as the corporatist bottomliners can see.  Of course they only see one financial quarter at a time.

Why all the diversion tactics, like clean coal and the hydrogen economy?  To pretend they are pursuing a "practical" research program, as opposed to wind, solar, biogas, wave power, and a distributed smart grid.  Paint us as the impractical dreamers, while they pursue fossil fuel empire.  Reframe our issue, frame us as kooks.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #9 by In the belly http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:52:48 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/9 why stop there, indeed?

I would add coal and gas development across the border from Montana in British Columbia, in the headwaters of the Flathead and Columbia rivers...

I see that Grist recognises Canada for recent acts of forest preservation.  May I join in that approval, given their sovereign nation status?

I welcome other nations disapproval of the US, given our sorry record (speaking in generalities, of course, certain states and municipalities excepted), hoping that embarrassment will eventually contribute to change.

Doing what I can to change attitudes, from within...

]]> why stop there, indeed?

I would add coal and gas development across the border from Montana in British Columbia, in the headwaters of the Flathead and Columbia rivers...

I see that Grist recognises Canada for recent acts of forest preservation.  May I join in that approval, given their sovereign nation status?

I welcome other nations disapproval of the US, given our sorry record (speaking in generalities, of course, certain states and municipalities excepted), hoping that embarrassment will eventually contribute to change.

Doing what I can to change attitudes, from within...

]]> Comment #10 by archstanton http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/ Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:12:23 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/the-cash-nexus/10 White Man's Bourbon

My suggestion is that the transcendentally noble and virtuous western nations begin a program whereby newborn infants from poor nations are imported, mulched, liquified and poured directly into the gas tanks of SUVs.  That ought to keep the western lifestyle humming along for at least a few months.  After that, we can all pray to Jesus that the human race can last out the 21st century without becoming extinct.  That honor will be bestowed upon the 22nd century.

]]> White Man's Bourbon

My suggestion is that the transcendentally noble and virtuous western nations begin a program whereby newborn infants from poor nations are imported, mulched, liquified and poured directly into the gas tanks of SUVs.  That ought to keep the western lifestyle humming along for at least a few months.  After that, we can all pray to Jesus that the human race can last out the 21st century without becoming extinct.  That honor will be bestowed upon the 22nd century.

]]>