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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for How much global warming results from air travel?]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:30:04 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sources of error<p>Atmosfair does have <a href="http://www.atmosfair.de/fileadmin/user_upload/image4/atmosfair_calculator_04.pdf" rel="nofollow">a 23 page PDF laying out their methodology.<p>
It says, in part:<p>
"A compromise between accuracy and data volume was struck when designing<br>
the Emissions Calculator. The most important factors are simulated, if at all<br>
possible, without giving an exaggerated impression of accuracy."<p>
It lists the following as major uncertainties:<p>
Aircraft type<br>
Seating<br>
Seat occupancy rate<br>
Engine type<br>
Condition of aircraft and engines<br>
Specific fuel consumption as a function of flight distance<br>
Detours<br>
Holding patterns<br>
Weather<br>
Current state of atmosphere<br>
Scientific knowledge level to IPCC 1999

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></br></br></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sources of error<p>Atmosfair does have <a href="http://www.atmosfair.de/fileadmin/user_upload/image4/atmosfair_calculator_04.pdf" rel="nofollow">a 23 page PDF laying out their methodology.<p>
It says, in part:<p>
"A compromise between accuracy and data volume was struck when designing<br>
the Emissions Calculator. The most important factors are simulated, if at all<br>
possible, without giving an exaggerated impression of accuracy."<p>
It lists the following as major uncertainties:<p>
Aircraft type<br>
Seating<br>
Seat occupancy rate<br>
Engine type<br>
Condition of aircraft and engines<br>
Specific fuel consumption as a function of flight distance<br>
Detours<br>
Holding patterns<br>
Weather<br>
Current state of atmosphere<br>
Scientific knowledge level to IPCC 1999

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></br></br></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:33:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Planetary Boundary Layer (PBL)</strong></p><p>I agree that it's complicated - I've worked on lower level atmospheric emissions from aircraft for years. &nbsp;These emissions are usually only counted within the mixing layer that extends up to the PBL, which can be 3,000 to 5,000 feet during the day. &nbsp;Above the tropopause, emissions do not generally mix down (except in severe storms). &nbsp;</p><p>
So do high-altitude jet plane emissions even count? &nbsp;My understanding is that many parts of the stratosphere are actually cooling, not warming up. &nbsp;</p><p>
Then as a minor point, you say that taxi operations (ground aviation movements) are fairly dependable and short. &nbsp;Tell that to folks like me who have sat for hours on the tarmac, only to find out that the plane is out of fuel and has to take on a few more thousand pounds!

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Planetary Boundary Layer (PBL)</strong></p><p>I agree that it's complicated - I've worked on lower level atmospheric emissions from aircraft for years. &nbsp;These emissions are usually only counted within the mixing layer that extends up to the PBL, which can be 3,000 to 5,000 feet during the day. &nbsp;Above the tropopause, emissions do not generally mix down (except in severe storms). &nbsp;</p><p>
So do high-altitude jet plane emissions even count? &nbsp;My understanding is that many parts of the stratosphere are actually cooling, not warming up. &nbsp;</p><p>
Then as a minor point, you say that taxi operations (ground aviation movements) are fairly dependable and short. &nbsp;Tell that to folks like me who have sat for hours on the tarmac, only to find out that the plane is out of fuel and has to take on a few more thousand pounds!

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:30:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>taxi</strong></p><p>you say that taxi operations (ground aviation movements) are fairly dependable and short.</p><p>
I think his point was that taxi operations don't vary in any predictable fashion, and aren't related to the length of the flight. &nbsp;They are, however, potentially a big wild card on any given flight.</p>
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				<p><strong>taxi</strong></p><p>you say that taxi operations (ground aviation movements) are fairly dependable and short.</p><p>
I think his point was that taxi operations don't vary in any predictable fashion, and aren't related to the length of the flight. &nbsp;They are, however, potentially a big wild card on any given flight.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:04:34 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>And this doesn't begin to cover...</strong></p><p>...flights from cargo planes, private jets, military planes, and the like.</p><p>
And if we really wanna get technical 'bout it, how much do the rocket and satellite launches add?</p>
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				<p><strong>And this doesn't begin to cover...</strong></p><p>...flights from cargo planes, private jets, military planes, and the like.</p><p>
And if we really wanna get technical 'bout it, how much do the rocket and satellite launches add?</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:47:09 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>cargo included</strong></p><p>To Green Engineer, I realize that taxi time averages are hard to get but for large international airports, but the data is there. I use FAA raw data, anyway. &nbsp;</p><p>
To Taser, general aviation (small planes), regional taxi panes, and commercial cargo planes are usually included in the airport activity statistics in separate columns. &nbsp;Helicopter activity is typically not. And because of Homeland Security, good luck on getting any military data, anywhere. &nbsp;It is a bunch. &nbsp;Forget rockets.</p><p>
To all, I am still having a problem with a distance-based function. I think that is bogus, since cruising it usually at 20,000 to 30,000 feet. It's all about take-offs and climb-out, descent approach and landing. If we were talking international ship emissions, I would say just the opposite. &nbsp;//sam

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>cargo included</strong></p><p>To Green Engineer, I realize that taxi time averages are hard to get but for large international airports, but the data is there. I use FAA raw data, anyway. &nbsp;</p><p>
To Taser, general aviation (small planes), regional taxi panes, and commercial cargo planes are usually included in the airport activity statistics in separate columns. &nbsp;Helicopter activity is typically not. And because of Homeland Security, good luck on getting any military data, anywhere. &nbsp;It is a bunch. &nbsp;Forget rockets.</p><p>
To all, I am still having a problem with a distance-based function. I think that is bogus, since cruising it usually at 20,000 to 30,000 feet. It's all about take-offs and climb-out, descent approach and landing. If we were talking international ship emissions, I would say just the opposite. &nbsp;//sam

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by rivergal</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:46:06 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>CO2 Emissions are Dependent on Weight!</strong></p><p>News flash: planes use more fuel when they carry more weight. &nbsp;Why is no one talking about this? &nbsp;Nor is anyone talking about the fact that as Americans get fatter and fatter, we use more gasoline when we drive even if nothing else changes. &nbsp;Fat people also consume more food, which uses more energy to produce and transport.</p><p>
I weigh only 110 lbs and travel very light -- lightweight wheeled 22" suitcase with not much in it. &nbsp;I often site next to HUGE guys whose jeans and shoes alone weigh as much as all the things in my suitcase. &nbsp;I also keep my car virtually empty of stuff except for emergency equipment. &nbsp;My contribution to CO2 emissions is a lot lower than those of people who let their BMI get up over 20, not to mention 25, 30, etc.</p><p>
Losing weight is something most Americans could do to help save the planet.</p>
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				<p><strong>CO2 Emissions are Dependent on Weight!</strong></p><p>News flash: planes use more fuel when they carry more weight. &nbsp;Why is no one talking about this? &nbsp;Nor is anyone talking about the fact that as Americans get fatter and fatter, we use more gasoline when we drive even if nothing else changes. &nbsp;Fat people also consume more food, which uses more energy to produce and transport.</p><p>
I weigh only 110 lbs and travel very light -- lightweight wheeled 22" suitcase with not much in it. &nbsp;I often site next to HUGE guys whose jeans and shoes alone weigh as much as all the things in my suitcase. &nbsp;I also keep my car virtually empty of stuff except for emergency equipment. &nbsp;My contribution to CO2 emissions is a lot lower than those of people who let their BMI get up over 20, not to mention 25, 30, etc.</p><p>
Losing weight is something most Americans could do to help save the planet.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by William Bert</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:54:16 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>A Few Comments<p>Kudos to Clark Williams-Derry for the helpful post examining what's behind carbon offsetters' air travel calculators. &nbsp;It's great to see this information gathered in one place, even if the only definite conclusion that can be drawn is it's complicated. :)<p>
I noticed the chart from the Stockholm Environment Institute says, "Calculations were done on 7/3/06 if not indicated otherwise." &nbsp;A year and a half is a long time, especially in a quickly-moving industry like carbon offsets. &nbsp;Carbonfund.org has been using an updated calculator for some time. &nbsp;It includes, among other improvements, a multiplier for radiative forcing and the ability to choose departure and arrival locations. &nbsp;<p>
You can read about the methodology for the air travel calculator and all the Carbonfund.org calculators here: <a href="www.carbonfund.org/site/pages/carbon_calculators/category/Assumptions/" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbonfund.org/site/pages/carbon_calculators/c ....<p>
Thanks for this great post and keep up the good work. &nbsp;Transparency is the name of the game for carbon offsetters, and we applaud any effort to increase it. &nbsp;To that end, we'll be featuring a posting on the <a href="http://carbonfund.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Carbonfund.org blog in the near future detailing the decisions behind our assumptions for air travel.<p>
William from Carbonfund.org</p></a></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>A Few Comments<p>Kudos to Clark Williams-Derry for the helpful post examining what's behind carbon offsetters' air travel calculators. &nbsp;It's great to see this information gathered in one place, even if the only definite conclusion that can be drawn is it's complicated. :)<p>
I noticed the chart from the Stockholm Environment Institute says, "Calculations were done on 7/3/06 if not indicated otherwise." &nbsp;A year and a half is a long time, especially in a quickly-moving industry like carbon offsets. &nbsp;Carbonfund.org has been using an updated calculator for some time. &nbsp;It includes, among other improvements, a multiplier for radiative forcing and the ability to choose departure and arrival locations. &nbsp;<p>
You can read about the methodology for the air travel calculator and all the Carbonfund.org calculators here: <a href="www.carbonfund.org/site/pages/carbon_calculators/category/Assumptions/" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbonfund.org/site/pages/carbon_calculators/c ....<p>
Thanks for this great post and keep up the good work. &nbsp;Transparency is the name of the game for carbon offsetters, and we applaud any effort to increase it. &nbsp;To that end, we'll be featuring a posting on the <a href="http://carbonfund.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Carbonfund.org blog in the near future detailing the decisions behind our assumptions for air travel.<p>
William from Carbonfund.org</p></a></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by picassotrigger</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:09:29 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/the-answer-depends-on-whom-you-ask/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Advice I once received from a farmer...</strong></p><p>Many years ago, I met a teacher while on a flight to New Orleans. He complained to me that the rural school he work at provided his class with computers, but refused to purchase mice for those machines. As there were only a few computers, he purchased them with his own money so his kids could get more use out of the machines.</p><p>
The teacher also farmed to supplement his income, and he drew an analogy between the computer mice and the price of nails on the farm. He said that because the cost of grain represented 80% of his total costs, he watched the price of grain very closely. But if he needed a box of nails to repair fencing, he just bought the nails regardless of what they cost.</p><p>
The IPCC report on Aviation cited above suggests that CO2 emissions from aircraft represented 2% of total anthropogenic CO2 emissions in 1992. I don't know whether that number has increased in the last 16 years, and I have heard that high-altitude emissions are worse than ground-level emissions of the same magnitude. That said, however, I am largely of the same mind as the farmer: if coal burning represents more than 40% of global emissions, liquid petroleum another 40%, and tropical deforestation somewhere in excess of 10%, I don't see air travel as a particularly significant concern. By the farmers reasoning, air travel is looking a great deal like the box of nails.</p><p>
Assuming absolutely no improvements in flight efficiency, air travel could increase by 50% and it would still represent less than 3% of total emissions.</p><p>
If the high-altitude emission issue is far more significant than I am accounting for in my reasoning, or if there is some other reason why air travel is represents far more than 2-3% of the problem, I am open to change my position.</p>
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				<p><strong>Advice I once received from a farmer...</strong></p><p>Many years ago, I met a teacher while on a flight to New Orleans. He complained to me that the rural school he work at provided his class with computers, but refused to purchase mice for those machines. As there were only a few computers, he purchased them with his own money so his kids could get more use out of the machines.</p><p>
The teacher also farmed to supplement his income, and he drew an analogy between the computer mice and the price of nails on the farm. He said that because the cost of grain represented 80% of his total costs, he watched the price of grain very closely. But if he needed a box of nails to repair fencing, he just bought the nails regardless of what they cost.</p><p>
The IPCC report on Aviation cited above suggests that CO2 emissions from aircraft represented 2% of total anthropogenic CO2 emissions in 1992. I don't know whether that number has increased in the last 16 years, and I have heard that high-altitude emissions are worse than ground-level emissions of the same magnitude. That said, however, I am largely of the same mind as the farmer: if coal burning represents more than 40% of global emissions, liquid petroleum another 40%, and tropical deforestation somewhere in excess of 10%, I don't see air travel as a particularly significant concern. By the farmers reasoning, air travel is looking a great deal like the box of nails.</p><p>
Assuming absolutely no improvements in flight efficiency, air travel could increase by 50% and it would still represent less than 3% of total emissions.</p><p>
If the high-altitude emission issue is far more significant than I am accounting for in my reasoning, or if there is some other reason why air travel is represents far more than 2-3% of the problem, I am open to change my position.</p>
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