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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Now they&#8217;re burning coal to make ethanol]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Ana Unruh Cohen</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 12:49:55 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Worth talking about<p>The Center for American Progress hosted a one-day conference examining a <a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&amp;b=1241597" rel="nofollow">similar proposition back in December. I don't think the idea is "conventional wisdom" inside the beltway yet, but some people are talking about it. Changing farm policy is still a huge political challenge.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Worth talking about<p>The Center for American Progress hosted a one-day conference examining a <a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&amp;b=1241597" rel="nofollow">similar proposition back in December. I don't think the idea is "conventional wisdom" inside the beltway yet, but some people are talking about it. Changing farm policy is still a huge political challenge.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by CowsEatGrass</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 13:05:08 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Bright Side?</strong></p><p>Although I'm not committing to be in favor of said magic wand, or any agricultural subsidy for that matter, a few things in this post offer more hope than you afford.</p><p>


Corn production does not have to be as damaging as it currently is. &nbsp;Given, square-miles of monocultres of any sort present an ecological threat, but the current practices could be reformed incrementally to greatly reduce their impact. &nbsp;And when the crops are to processed into fuel, there is the possibility that polycultures could be developed that would be more productive, less harmful, and yeild as much energy as corn alone. &nbsp;Processing would, of course, be a challenge here.</p><p>
The corn oil byproduct could also be used as fuel for transportation.

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				<p><strong>Bright Side?</strong></p><p>Although I'm not committing to be in favor of said magic wand, or any agricultural subsidy for that matter, a few things in this post offer more hope than you afford.</p><p>


Corn production does not have to be as damaging as it currently is. &nbsp;Given, square-miles of monocultres of any sort present an ecological threat, but the current practices could be reformed incrementally to greatly reduce their impact. &nbsp;And when the crops are to processed into fuel, there is the possibility that polycultures could be developed that would be more productive, less harmful, and yeild as much energy as corn alone. &nbsp;Processing would, of course, be a challenge here.</p><p>
The corn oil byproduct could also be used as fuel for transportation.

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            <title>Comment #3 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:43:57 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>markets</strong></p><p>Put aside for a moment the dubious merits of corn as a primary source of ethanol -- perhaps it's true that once production gets ramped up, other crops will get rotated in and some of the damage could be reduced.</p><p>
But if present farm subsidies were simply dumped into the auto fuels market, how would that not massively distort that market (as badly as the ag market is now distorted)? </p><p>
And what chance would we ever have of reducing personal transportation in general if "America's farmers" were depending on us to burn their products?

<p>www.grist.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>markets</strong></p><p>Put aside for a moment the dubious merits of corn as a primary source of ethanol -- perhaps it's true that once production gets ramped up, other crops will get rotated in and some of the damage could be reduced.</p><p>
But if present farm subsidies were simply dumped into the auto fuels market, how would that not massively distort that market (as badly as the ag market is now distorted)? </p><p>
And what chance would we ever have of reducing personal transportation in general if "America's farmers" were depending on us to burn their products?

<p>www.grist.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Mar 2006 14:55:33 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Competition</strong></p><p>Even with large ethanol from corn subsidies, 1 dollar per gallon is the figure now, maybe green competition to agribizz monoculture/chemical switchgrass or corn could fool these sneaky lobbyists and their government henchmen.</p><p>
A solar and wind powered algae based biofuel system can produce a lot more fuel and actually recycle waste and reduce CO2 from power plants doing it. &nbsp;Will these projects get the 1 dollar per gallon subsidy?</p><p>
If not, why not? &nbsp;And shouldn't biodiesel from waste or algae get that same subsidy?</p><p>
Level the playing field and agri-bizz might be beaten in the market place with &nbsp;ultra low cost biofuel production from waste using solar and wind power. &nbsp;With clean water and green electric power as &nbsp;byproducts.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Competition</strong></p><p>Even with large ethanol from corn subsidies, 1 dollar per gallon is the figure now, maybe green competition to agribizz monoculture/chemical switchgrass or corn could fool these sneaky lobbyists and their government henchmen.</p><p>
A solar and wind powered algae based biofuel system can produce a lot more fuel and actually recycle waste and reduce CO2 from power plants doing it. &nbsp;Will these projects get the 1 dollar per gallon subsidy?</p><p>
If not, why not? &nbsp;And shouldn't biodiesel from waste or algae get that same subsidy?</p><p>
Level the playing field and agri-bizz might be beaten in the market place with &nbsp;ultra low cost biofuel production from waste using solar and wind power. &nbsp;With clean water and green electric power as &nbsp;byproducts.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 00:51:07 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>No one seems to realize that<p>ethanol production from cellulose is still in the experimental stage, like fusion power. All of this discussion over a fuel that has yet to be proven commercially viable seems premature to me, but what do I know?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>No one seems to realize that<p>ethanol production from cellulose is still in the experimental stage, like fusion power. All of this discussion over a fuel that has yet to be proven commercially viable seems premature to me, but what do I know?

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Ana Unruh Cohen</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 01:10:54 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>not quite fusion</strong></p><p>Iogen and Shell are working on building the first cellulosic refinery. They might have all the financing worked out this year. And a DuPont backed group is also working on building a plant. These will be critical in proving the ability of the technology to scale up. </p><p>
Fusion folks are still trying to figure out how to produce energy for longer than a tiny fraction of a second. </p>
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				<p><strong>not quite fusion</strong></p><p>Iogen and Shell are working on building the first cellulosic refinery. They might have all the financing worked out this year. And a DuPont backed group is also working on building a plant. These will be critical in proving the ability of the technology to scale up. </p><p>
Fusion folks are still trying to figure out how to produce energy for longer than a tiny fraction of a second. </p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 04:10:10 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>True, Ana<p>Note <a href="http://www.iogen.ca/news_events/press_releases/2006_01_08.html" rel="nofollow">here who their major partners are, and be sure to read the disclaimer if anyone out there feels confident enough to invest in some of these ventures. I was not suggesting that the two energy schemes were on equal footing for becoming <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4629239.stm" rel="nofollow">commercially viable. I was just using fusion as an example of a scheme that has yet to prove commercially viable. According to this <a href="http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:sesPHn2CkGcJ:www.ethanol.org/documents/6-05_Cellulosic_Ethanol.pdf+technical+hurdles+to+cellulosic&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=2" rel="nofollow">report:<p>
Even with the dramatic reduction in cost, enzymes for cellulose conversion to ethanol are still several times more expensive than those for the production of starch-based ethanol.<p>
Keep in mind that these will be facilities to test commercial viability, they may not prove viable.<p>
I don't' view the potential for cellulosic ethanol in the same light that I view biodiesel grown with soybeans or in cleared rainforests. Although the jury is still out. The enthusiasm for this is similar though. Try doing a Google search to verify that biodiesel releases ten times more smog forming nitrogen oxides into the air than <b>gasoline cars (suggesting another reason that trading a <b>gasoline car for a biodiesel one may not be too smart). It is illegal to sell diesel cars in some states because of smog forming pollutants. Try doing the same to verify that using biodiesel will stuff 11.6 football fields worth of soybeans into your gas tank annually. We are acting like a bunch of sheep, running wildly in one direction, then another. In this instance the stampede was started by Bush's speech. This research has been going on for a quarter of a century.<p>
Will a new enzyme breakthrough completely destroy the biodiesel industry that is now enthusiastically using billions of dollars of government money to build an infrastructure? Will the farmers who invested in biodiesel refineries go bankrupt if enough (they won't all do so) diesel consumers switch to a cleaner, cheaper ethanol fuel? What will all of my friends and neighbors who ran out to buy diesel Jettas to save the planet do with their cars then? The same thing might happen to cellulosic fuels if battery technology (or something else) comes along to give cars an equivalent gas mileage of 120 MPG.<p>
Personally, I'm betting on a viable hybrid electric car, and I intend to back that bet up with a purchase.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></p></b></b></p></p></p></a></a></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>True, Ana<p>Note <a href="http://www.iogen.ca/news_events/press_releases/2006_01_08.html" rel="nofollow">here who their major partners are, and be sure to read the disclaimer if anyone out there feels confident enough to invest in some of these ventures. I was not suggesting that the two energy schemes were on equal footing for becoming <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4629239.stm" rel="nofollow">commercially viable. I was just using fusion as an example of a scheme that has yet to prove commercially viable. According to this <a href="http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:sesPHn2CkGcJ:www.ethanol.org/documents/6-05_Cellulosic_Ethanol.pdf+technical+hurdles+to+cellulosic&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;ct=clnk&amp;cd=2" rel="nofollow">report:<p>
Even with the dramatic reduction in cost, enzymes for cellulose conversion to ethanol are still several times more expensive than those for the production of starch-based ethanol.<p>
Keep in mind that these will be facilities to test commercial viability, they may not prove viable.<p>
I don't' view the potential for cellulosic ethanol in the same light that I view biodiesel grown with soybeans or in cleared rainforests. Although the jury is still out. The enthusiasm for this is similar though. Try doing a Google search to verify that biodiesel releases ten times more smog forming nitrogen oxides into the air than <b>gasoline cars (suggesting another reason that trading a <b>gasoline car for a biodiesel one may not be too smart). It is illegal to sell diesel cars in some states because of smog forming pollutants. Try doing the same to verify that using biodiesel will stuff 11.6 football fields worth of soybeans into your gas tank annually. We are acting like a bunch of sheep, running wildly in one direction, then another. In this instance the stampede was started by Bush's speech. This research has been going on for a quarter of a century.<p>
Will a new enzyme breakthrough completely destroy the biodiesel industry that is now enthusiastically using billions of dollars of government money to build an infrastructure? Will the farmers who invested in biodiesel refineries go bankrupt if enough (they won't all do so) diesel consumers switch to a cleaner, cheaper ethanol fuel? What will all of my friends and neighbors who ran out to buy diesel Jettas to save the planet do with their cars then? The same thing might happen to cellulosic fuels if battery technology (or something else) comes along to give cars an equivalent gas mileage of 120 MPG.<p>
Personally, I'm betting on a viable hybrid electric car, and I intend to back that bet up with a purchase.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></p></b></b></p></p></p></a></a></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 04:30:52 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Thus trumping Odo and his stinking Prius<p>High gas mileage will be the new status symbol. Mark my words somebody.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thus trumping Odo and his stinking Prius<p>High gas mileage will be the new status symbol. Mark my words somebody.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:01:27 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>ah!</strong></p><p>But I still have my bicycles ;-)</p><p>
(You guys who ride in snow already trump me.)</p>
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				<p><strong>ah!</strong></p><p>But I still have my bicycles ;-)</p><p>
(You guys who ride in snow already trump me.)</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 05:46:26 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Studded tires</strong></p><p>The studded bicycle tires work great odo, but then there's slush and cars sliding all over.</p><p>
Cellulosic ethanol, not so great. &nbsp;Conservation lands put into monocrop switchgrass that needs oil based chemical fertilizer, herbicides, and farming energy &nbsp;is not a good solution to transportation energy problems.</p><p>
Furthermore the processing energy will come from fossil or nuclear power.</p><p>
And as Lester Brown points out water is the big problem with energy farming, it is the limiting factor. &nbsp;When fuel crops raise the price of food because of water shortage it will be too late, society will already be dependent on fuel farming. </p><p>
When burned ethanol is only slightly cleaner than gasoline, still producing plenty of greenhouse gases.</p><p>
Isn't global climate change most of the problem we now have? &nbsp;Imported energy that entails constant war is a close second, but the main problem must be solved along with the secondary problem. &nbsp;Switchgrass won't do that, and it drains precious capital from the real effort.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Studded tires</strong></p><p>The studded bicycle tires work great odo, but then there's slush and cars sliding all over.</p><p>
Cellulosic ethanol, not so great. &nbsp;Conservation lands put into monocrop switchgrass that needs oil based chemical fertilizer, herbicides, and farming energy &nbsp;is not a good solution to transportation energy problems.</p><p>
Furthermore the processing energy will come from fossil or nuclear power.</p><p>
And as Lester Brown points out water is the big problem with energy farming, it is the limiting factor. &nbsp;When fuel crops raise the price of food because of water shortage it will be too late, society will already be dependent on fuel farming. </p><p>
When burned ethanol is only slightly cleaner than gasoline, still producing plenty of greenhouse gases.</p><p>
Isn't global climate change most of the problem we now have? &nbsp;Imported energy that entails constant war is a close second, but the main problem must be solved along with the secondary problem. &nbsp;Switchgrass won't do that, and it drains precious capital from the real effort.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by wordwright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/switchgrass-the-magic-wand-that-transforms-crappy-biofuels-policy-into-gold/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:31:36 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Biodiesel emissions</strong></p><p>I'm baffled by the number of references I've seen lately, in this thread and others, to the increase in nitrous oxide emissions caused by biodiesel (relative to petrodiesel and especially to gasoline). &nbsp;Has no one heard of a <strong>catalytic converter</strong>?</p>
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				<p><strong>Biodiesel emissions</strong></p><p>I'm baffled by the number of references I've seen lately, in this thread and others, to the increase in nitrous oxide emissions caused by biodiesel (relative to petrodiesel and especially to gasoline). &nbsp;Has no one heard of a <strong>catalytic converter</strong>?</p>
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