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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Expensive coal + hydrogen = ?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:10:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Clean Coal Can Do Good<p>The issue is that we and the rest of the world will continue to use coal until a better baseload technology or smart grid comes to pass.<p>
However, the situation is dire right now. &nbsp; The US can clean up its CO2 by a significant percentage just by replacing some of its old coal infrastructure with new. &nbsp; &nbsp;Obviously it's not the only thing.<p>
In China, the situation is more dire because they are hell bent on expanding and nothing will stop them. &nbsp; At best we can hope they will use clean coal or we'll be stuck with bad coal technology from them for the next 30 years.<p>
Check out today's article in the W Post:<p>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/14/AR2007111402010.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007 ...<p>
World's Power Plant Emissions Detailed<p>
China, South Africa and India host the world's five dirtiest utility companies in terms of global warming pollution, according to the first-ever worldwide database of power plants' carbon dioxide emissions, while a single Southern Co. plant in Juliette, Ga., emits more annually than Brazil's entire power sector.

<p><b><a href="http://log.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">My Log</a></b></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Clean Coal Can Do Good<p>The issue is that we and the rest of the world will continue to use coal until a better baseload technology or smart grid comes to pass.<p>
However, the situation is dire right now. &nbsp; The US can clean up its CO2 by a significant percentage just by replacing some of its old coal infrastructure with new. &nbsp; &nbsp;Obviously it's not the only thing.<p>
In China, the situation is more dire because they are hell bent on expanding and nothing will stop them. &nbsp; At best we can hope they will use clean coal or we'll be stuck with bad coal technology from them for the next 30 years.<p>
Check out today's article in the W Post:<p>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/14/AR2007111402010.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007 ...<p>
World's Power Plant Emissions Detailed<p>
China, South Africa and India host the world's five dirtiest utility companies in terms of global warming pollution, according to the first-ever worldwide database of power plants' carbon dioxide emissions, while a single Southern Co. plant in Juliette, Ga., emits more annually than Brazil's entire power sector.

<p><b><a href="http://log.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">My Log</a></b></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:12:21 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>And thats exactly why</strong></p><p>In China, the situation is more dire because they are hell bent on expanding and nothing will stop them.</p><p>
And thats exactly why a hyper-expensive coal technology will be even more ignored than an expensive renewable technology.</p><p>
The only thing we can hope to do is scale up renewables, such that we can lower the price.</p><p>
Since Coal on the other hand, cannot be both clean and cheap at the same time.</p>
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				<p><strong>And thats exactly why</strong></p><p>In China, the situation is more dire because they are hell bent on expanding and nothing will stop them.</p><p>
And thats exactly why a hyper-expensive coal technology will be even more ignored than an expensive renewable technology.</p><p>
The only thing we can hope to do is scale up renewables, such that we can lower the price.</p><p>
Since Coal on the other hand, cannot be both clean and cheap at the same time.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by nitack</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:19:39 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Coal can not be clean</strong></p><p>Since Coal on the other hand, cannot be both clean and cheap at the same time.</p><p>
Sorry to break it to you, but <b>coal can never be clean</b>... period.</p><p>
You can scrub out the impurities so that they are not included in the combustion process. &nbsp;However you are left with a toxic sludge of all those impurities. &nbsp;Law of conservation of matter: "matter cannot be created/destroyed, although it may be rearranged". &nbsp;So rather than have those toxins locked in coal harmlessly trapped below the surface you can have it in the air or as a sludge to deal with.</p><p>
As for carbon capture... oh boy, where to begin. &nbsp;Where are you going to put all this compressed carbon dioxide you capture? &nbsp;Sink barrels to the bottom of the sea? &nbsp;How long will it be trapped? &nbsp;Will those barrels leak eventually? &nbsp;Will that contribute to ocean acidification? &nbsp;Carbon capture is not a <b>SUSTAINABLE</b> solution. &nbsp;At best it is a stop gap until we further develop <b>RENEWABLE</b> energy production to the point it can fill our needs. &nbsp;To devote obscene financial resources and pin the worlds hopes on carbon capture technology is utter stupidity. &nbsp;Your just entrenching fossil fuels and ultimately the issue is not solved.</p>
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				<p><strong>Coal can not be clean</strong></p><p>Since Coal on the other hand, cannot be both clean and cheap at the same time.</p><p>
Sorry to break it to you, but <b>coal can never be clean</b>... period.</p><p>
You can scrub out the impurities so that they are not included in the combustion process. &nbsp;However you are left with a toxic sludge of all those impurities. &nbsp;Law of conservation of matter: "matter cannot be created/destroyed, although it may be rearranged". &nbsp;So rather than have those toxins locked in coal harmlessly trapped below the surface you can have it in the air or as a sludge to deal with.</p><p>
As for carbon capture... oh boy, where to begin. &nbsp;Where are you going to put all this compressed carbon dioxide you capture? &nbsp;Sink barrels to the bottom of the sea? &nbsp;How long will it be trapped? &nbsp;Will those barrels leak eventually? &nbsp;Will that contribute to ocean acidification? &nbsp;Carbon capture is not a <b>SUSTAINABLE</b> solution. &nbsp;At best it is a stop gap until we further develop <b>RENEWABLE</b> energy production to the point it can fill our needs. &nbsp;To devote obscene financial resources and pin the worlds hopes on carbon capture technology is utter stupidity. &nbsp;Your just entrenching fossil fuels and ultimately the issue is not solved.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by nycowboy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 05:37:18 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Re: Coal can not be clean</strong></p><p>I agree with that. </p><p>
But I'd rather have a cleaner coal plant burning coal then a dirtier one. It's better to capturing and landfilling that crap then it is to be breathing it, killing our trees it, and making our cities covered with haze.</p><p>
The future of energy needs to be in renewables. But we need to clean up existing plants, until we can fully phase them out.</p>
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				<p><strong>Re: Coal can not be clean</strong></p><p>I agree with that. </p><p>
But I'd rather have a cleaner coal plant burning coal then a dirtier one. It's better to capturing and landfilling that crap then it is to be breathing it, killing our trees it, and making our cities covered with haze.</p><p>
The future of energy needs to be in renewables. But we need to clean up existing plants, until we can fully phase them out.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Ekirky</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:09:10 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/stupid-idea-on-so-many-levels1/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>there seems to be a bit of confusion....</strong></p><p>A "clean" coal plant can mean one of two things. Some coal plants emit more sulfur and other non-carbon pollutants than others. These pollutants contribute to acid rain and other problems, and old plants tend to emit more than new ones. Old or new coal plants can be outfitted with "scrubbers" that remove some of the sulfur, mercury and other pollutants and stop them from exiting into the atmosphere. These scrubbers exist and are relatively cost-effective at removing some, if not all, of these non-carbon pollutants. <br>
However, the only way to stop a coal plant form emitting carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas, is by capturing and sequestering the carbon. This process is not currently under way anywhere, and its not entirely clear whether it ever will be. It is prohibitively expensive, at least for the moment, and it has not been proven to be safe. Certian scientific or enginnering breakthorughs could make it a real possibilty, though, which would allow us to burn coal without contributing to global climate change. FutureGen's clean coal plant will, supposedly, use carbon capture and sequestration while producing electricity. </br></p>
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				<p><strong>there seems to be a bit of confusion....</strong></p><p>A "clean" coal plant can mean one of two things. Some coal plants emit more sulfur and other non-carbon pollutants than others. These pollutants contribute to acid rain and other problems, and old plants tend to emit more than new ones. Old or new coal plants can be outfitted with "scrubbers" that remove some of the sulfur, mercury and other pollutants and stop them from exiting into the atmosphere. These scrubbers exist and are relatively cost-effective at removing some, if not all, of these non-carbon pollutants. <br>
However, the only way to stop a coal plant form emitting carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas, is by capturing and sequestering the carbon. This process is not currently under way anywhere, and its not entirely clear whether it ever will be. It is prohibitively expensive, at least for the moment, and it has not been proven to be safe. Certian scientific or enginnering breakthorughs could make it a real possibilty, though, which would allow us to burn coal without contributing to global climate change. FutureGen's clean coal plant will, supposedly, use carbon capture and sequestration while producing electricity. </br></p>
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