<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New solar funding is almost comically inadequate]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by sunflower http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Wed, 01 Feb 2006 08:27:56 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/1 Austin Powers or solar power

Wow, have I got an headache.  Its not going to be easy beating my head against this same Bush wall.

Apparently, global warming is too terrible for Bush to talk about, or for us to hear (not solving this problem soon will be the destruction of the living Earth, like the Permian Extinction).

So we instead listen to talk about PV solar building materials and ethanol from wood chips to drive our SUVs.  There is no way near enough trees and corn cobs to replace oil with ethanol.

I have been developing new solar technologies since the Carter Administration and I am not a follower of  PV (and not a leader in anything else).  There is a better way.  Follow the least cost path.

We heat our homes with natural gas, oil, and coal electricity.  Washington State would be deforested in three years just to match the energy WA  needs with wood.  The solar resource, even in Seattle climate is far more powerful and with district heating plus seasonal storage can heat the city's homes 100% of the time.  Home oil and gas can be diverted to transportation until better systems become available.  Shut coal down.  Coal is the enemy.

Solar thermal (heat) is lower cost than oil, lower cost than coal electricity.  I live in a passive solar home that collects 20 kilowatts of heat while the sun shines.  That is about three times the heat output of a wood stove.  My favorite heat technology is the solar dish (about four times cheaper than oil).   And when I put PV solar cells in the focus the power output is increased 1000 times, total system cost is less than $1/Watt electric.   Solar Dish Concentrator Materials

It will take a trillion dollars to transition the USA from oil to solar and the return on investment will be very positive.

Bush "Zeroed out" the solar concentrator budget five years ago so the SOTU was just talk, a green cover to a very dark secret agenda.

]]> Austin Powers or solar power

Wow, have I got an headache.  Its not going to be easy beating my head against this same Bush wall.

Apparently, global warming is too terrible for Bush to talk about, or for us to hear (not solving this problem soon will be the destruction of the living Earth, like the Permian Extinction).

So we instead listen to talk about PV solar building materials and ethanol from wood chips to drive our SUVs.  There is no way near enough trees and corn cobs to replace oil with ethanol.

I have been developing new solar technologies since the Carter Administration and I am not a follower of  PV (and not a leader in anything else).  There is a better way.  Follow the least cost path.

We heat our homes with natural gas, oil, and coal electricity.  Washington State would be deforested in three years just to match the energy WA  needs with wood.  The solar resource, even in Seattle climate is far more powerful and with district heating plus seasonal storage can heat the city's homes 100% of the time.  Home oil and gas can be diverted to transportation until better systems become available.  Shut coal down.  Coal is the enemy.

Solar thermal (heat) is lower cost than oil, lower cost than coal electricity.  I live in a passive solar home that collects 20 kilowatts of heat while the sun shines.  That is about three times the heat output of a wood stove.  My favorite heat technology is the solar dish (about four times cheaper than oil).   And when I put PV solar cells in the focus the power output is increased 1000 times, total system cost is less than $1/Watt electric.   Solar Dish Concentrator Materials

It will take a trillion dollars to transition the USA from oil to solar and the return on investment will be very positive.

Bush "Zeroed out" the solar concentrator budget five years ago so the SOTU was just talk, a green cover to a very dark secret agenda.

]]> Comment #2 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:01:06 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/2 Solar cogeneration.

Impressive power output from that concentrator!  Does it burn out the PV cells in full sunlight?

With concentration technology combined with solar heating/cooling, solar cogeneration can convert more of the available solar power to useful energy.  It alters the economics signifigantly.

The design using compoind parabolic concentraion even produces usable electricity and heat from diffuse solar energy that comes through clouds.

By cooling the PV cells with liquid that collects heat, the electric power output of the PV cells can be maximized even on cloudy days and in early morning and evening light.

Can that one dollar per watt of generating capacity you mentioned  be reached with mass production?  Maybe, but even 5 dollars per watt would be economically feasible.  

And by substituting solar heat for home heating/cooling less electricity is needed for those applications.  Saving kwhs is the same as generating them from a cost perspective.

I am looking for some test results from liquid cooled PV cells exposed to concentrated solar energy.  I have had an intertesting discussion  on worldchanging blog,  about a design claiming huge energy increases from PV cells using this design.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/7/25/1076505.html

It's kind of a screwy setup where the cells float in water.  That seems kind of impractical.  

I'm thinking of inexpensive, mass produced  sheet metal assemblies that attach to roofs and walls instead, incorporating compound parabolic collectors.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Solar cogeneration.

Impressive power output from that concentrator!  Does it burn out the PV cells in full sunlight?

With concentration technology combined with solar heating/cooling, solar cogeneration can convert more of the available solar power to useful energy.  It alters the economics signifigantly.

The design using compoind parabolic concentraion even produces usable electricity and heat from diffuse solar energy that comes through clouds.

By cooling the PV cells with liquid that collects heat, the electric power output of the PV cells can be maximized even on cloudy days and in early morning and evening light.

Can that one dollar per watt of generating capacity you mentioned  be reached with mass production?  Maybe, but even 5 dollars per watt would be economically feasible.  

And by substituting solar heat for home heating/cooling less electricity is needed for those applications.  Saving kwhs is the same as generating them from a cost perspective.

I am looking for some test results from liquid cooled PV cells exposed to concentrated solar energy.  I have had an intertesting discussion  on worldchanging blog,  about a design claiming huge energy increases from PV cells using this design.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/7/25/1076505.html

It's kind of a screwy setup where the cells float in water.  That seems kind of impractical.  

I'm thinking of inexpensive, mass produced  sheet metal assemblies that attach to roofs and walls instead, incorporating compound parabolic collectors.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #3 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:10:37 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/3 This article is even better!

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003127.html

Great rundown on concentrators for PV.  It claims $3 per watt is possible.  No mention of liquid cooled cogeneration though.  39% efficiency though as opposed to the normal 10% of flat plate collectors!

And look at this!  Great design for roof top applications.

http://www.energyinnovations.com/sunflower250.html

It bears your nickname.  Sunflower.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> This article is even better!

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003127.html

Great rundown on concentrators for PV.  It claims $3 per watt is possible.  No mention of liquid cooled cogeneration though.  39% efficiency though as opposed to the normal 10% of flat plate collectors!

And look at this!  Great design for roof top applications.

http://www.energyinnovations.com/sunflower250.html

It bears your nickname.  Sunflower.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #4 by sunflower http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:21:40 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/4 Solar Cogen

Cost $1/Watt(e) is mass produced at gigawatt levels, but more important is $0.20/Watt(t) thermal when mass produced at megawatt levels.  There is no power when cloudy.  Cogeneration at 1000-suns is with water cooling using computer chip heat sinks, no worries there.  More info at http://www.harbornet.com/sunflower/pvdish.html

This is much lower cost than 500 "nucular" plants.

]]> Solar Cogen

Cost $1/Watt(e) is mass produced at gigawatt levels, but more important is $0.20/Watt(t) thermal when mass produced at megawatt levels.  There is no power when cloudy.  Cogeneration at 1000-suns is with water cooling using computer chip heat sinks, no worries there.  More info at http://www.harbornet.com/sunflower/pvdish.html

This is much lower cost than 500 "nucular" plants.

]]> Comment #5 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:44:19 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/5 Yep, excellent.

Beats the hell out of nuke you ler.  Hehey.

Even for home power though, without the megawatt scale I believe it would be competitive given mass production.

Take away that 15 billion per year in subsidies to oil companies and use it to subsidize half the cost of these solar systems for homeowners and small businesses and US manufacturing would be back in business!  The solar business.

And of course the megawatt industrial scale systems are great too!  But would not need subsidies to compete.

Too bad bush could not propose anything like this plan.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Yep, excellent.

Beats the hell out of nuke you ler.  Hehey.

Even for home power though, without the megawatt scale I believe it would be competitive given mass production.

Take away that 15 billion per year in subsidies to oil companies and use it to subsidize half the cost of these solar systems for homeowners and small businesses and US manufacturing would be back in business!  The solar business.

And of course the megawatt industrial scale systems are great too!  But would not need subsidies to compete.

Too bad bush could not propose anything like this plan.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #6 by SolarAmigo http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:28:48 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/6 Solar America Initiative: Not as Bad as You Think

It is a sad fact that this Administration did not bite off a bigger chunk of its federal spending for solar, but let's not lose sight of what has happened here. Although I respect many points that Adam has made here, the conclusion that "this remedy is so pathetically inadequate to the problem that it seems more like an insult" is a bit harsh.  

Let's take a step back and think about what many of us thought when Bush took office-- all renewable programs might be completely zeroed out.  Trust me, that was a real possibility.  We have now reached the stage that, for whatever reason, political optics or otherwise, the Bush Administration is listening to the push from level-headed Energy Secy Sam Bodman and at least making a modest effort towards solar, bringing us the largest solar budget in 25 years.  

I think that as a community of solar supporters and activists, we should run with this rather than dump on it.  As a Democratic Washington energy "insider," if you told me 5 years ago that Bush would promote any energy initiative that didn't involve oil, I'd assume you were smoking crack recently.  A solar initiative?  You've been doing double time on the pipe.

$148 million in FY07 pales in comparison to military spending, or probably fuel for Air Force One & Two for that matter. But think about what a doubling of the federal solar budget does for the domestic PV industry (if you have any doubts as to their enthusiasm, check out the industry homepage at http://www.seia.org).  Think about the possibility of additional funding opening up more private financing markets for PV because of short- to mid-term risk reduction.  Think about the few cents/kWh that it may knock off the cost of PV systems that are already starting to penetrate certain high-value markets, such as Hawaii and New York, with considerable speed.  And think about whether this Solar America Initiative will extend for another year, or two, or five.  That could easily add up to $1 billion in a hurry.

And remember, compared to the California initiative, which I fully support and commend, this money is required by law to be cost-shared.  Leveraged by law, this $1 billion could turn into $2 billion.  All of a sudden, it's not peanuts.  And I'm not being a bleary-eyed dreamer here -- this is the reality of Presidential initiatives and cost-sharing requirements.  SAI could play a significant role in bringing a substantial federal R&D presence to the PV world -- the States (including California) simply don't have the expertise resident in our National Labs to do the R&D side-- hence the abundance of credits/rebates.

So for the good of all of us, please keep critiquing and pointing out how we can do more and do better.  But don't forget to stop and smell the roses once in a while.  Maybe something positive will come out of this after all.

]]> Solar America Initiative: Not as Bad as You Think

It is a sad fact that this Administration did not bite off a bigger chunk of its federal spending for solar, but let's not lose sight of what has happened here. Although I respect many points that Adam has made here, the conclusion that "this remedy is so pathetically inadequate to the problem that it seems more like an insult" is a bit harsh.  

Let's take a step back and think about what many of us thought when Bush took office-- all renewable programs might be completely zeroed out.  Trust me, that was a real possibility.  We have now reached the stage that, for whatever reason, political optics or otherwise, the Bush Administration is listening to the push from level-headed Energy Secy Sam Bodman and at least making a modest effort towards solar, bringing us the largest solar budget in 25 years.  

I think that as a community of solar supporters and activists, we should run with this rather than dump on it.  As a Democratic Washington energy "insider," if you told me 5 years ago that Bush would promote any energy initiative that didn't involve oil, I'd assume you were smoking crack recently.  A solar initiative?  You've been doing double time on the pipe.

$148 million in FY07 pales in comparison to military spending, or probably fuel for Air Force One & Two for that matter. But think about what a doubling of the federal solar budget does for the domestic PV industry (if you have any doubts as to their enthusiasm, check out the industry homepage at http://www.seia.org).  Think about the possibility of additional funding opening up more private financing markets for PV because of short- to mid-term risk reduction.  Think about the few cents/kWh that it may knock off the cost of PV systems that are already starting to penetrate certain high-value markets, such as Hawaii and New York, with considerable speed.  And think about whether this Solar America Initiative will extend for another year, or two, or five.  That could easily add up to $1 billion in a hurry.

And remember, compared to the California initiative, which I fully support and commend, this money is required by law to be cost-shared.  Leveraged by law, this $1 billion could turn into $2 billion.  All of a sudden, it's not peanuts.  And I'm not being a bleary-eyed dreamer here -- this is the reality of Presidential initiatives and cost-sharing requirements.  SAI could play a significant role in bringing a substantial federal R&D presence to the PV world -- the States (including California) simply don't have the expertise resident in our National Labs to do the R&D side-- hence the abundance of credits/rebates.

So for the good of all of us, please keep critiquing and pointing out how we can do more and do better.  But don't forget to stop and smell the roses once in a while.  Maybe something positive will come out of this after all.

]]> Comment #7 by sunflower http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Sat, 04 Feb 2006 04:44:26 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/7 fuzzy economic mathematics

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_06/b3970108.htm
silicon shortage

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/03/politics/03energy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
In Energy Work, One Hand Giveth and the Other Taketh - New York Times  (requires login)

Earmarked new solar funds causing layoffs at NREL



]]> fuzzy economic mathematics

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_06/b3970108.htm
silicon shortage

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/03/politics/03energy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
In Energy Work, One Hand Giveth and the Other Taketh - New York Times  (requires login)

Earmarked new solar funds causing layoffs at NREL



]]> Comment #8 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:16:28 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/8 55 cents per kwh in Germany?

Incredible sun!

A shortage of silicon, one of the most plentiful, inexpensive elements on planet earth!  It's in the sand and rocks!!

And no solar furnace powered silicon wafer fabs (cogenerating electricity and heat)in US deserts?

Government policy and industrial planning of the worst kind.  Similar to war production in WW 2 Germany.

Our foresight and organization in war production was one of the main reasons we beat them.

We need that edge back to win these energy wars.  The world will fight to the last drop of oil, while the solution to the energy shortage lies in the sand beneath our feet, and the sunlight from the sky above.

Consider this though...  with your solar concentrator  invention and others like it, less silicon is needed to produce more power.  It's a gold rush, with Germany and other countries offering 55 cents per kwh for solar power.

Every square foot of silicon replaced with metal reflector surface is a huge cost savings, the pricier the silicon, the more profit possible on the reflectors.

Know any German venture capitalists?  Hehey.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> 55 cents per kwh in Germany?

Incredible sun!

A shortage of silicon, one of the most plentiful, inexpensive elements on planet earth!  It's in the sand and rocks!!

And no solar furnace powered silicon wafer fabs (cogenerating electricity and heat)in US deserts?

Government policy and industrial planning of the worst kind.  Similar to war production in WW 2 Germany.

Our foresight and organization in war production was one of the main reasons we beat them.

We need that edge back to win these energy wars.  The world will fight to the last drop of oil, while the solution to the energy shortage lies in the sand beneath our feet, and the sunlight from the sky above.

Consider this though...  with your solar concentrator  invention and others like it, less silicon is needed to produce more power.  It's a gold rush, with Germany and other countries offering 55 cents per kwh for solar power.

Every square foot of silicon replaced with metal reflector surface is a huge cost savings, the pricier the silicon, the more profit possible on the reflectors.

Know any German venture capitalists?  Hehey.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #9 by birdboy http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/ Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:29:03 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/sotu-bushs-austin-powers-moment/9 typically pitiful pitance pacifies party patriots

It was a shock to hear Dubya talk about our addiction to oil- a pleasant, 5 volt kind of shock, capable of flipping a bit, but not of driving any current. But is that where your expectations are? I remember when we were leaders in new technology, forward thinking, inpiring and assisting the world into better, easier days. Is this kind of funding going to put US in the lead? Remember Japan's 10 billion in solar subsidies? This administration's contribution to the biggest problem in the history of man on Earth (global warming) is nothing to cheer about. Sounds like lip service to pacify elements of the party who admit there is a need for action and to thereby solidify the real push to dominate and control the world for US consumption.

Clearly, greed is still calling the shots from the White House. I suspect another big push to drill in the parks and the reserves will follow as the means to execute the Bush plan for energy independence (which has nothing to do with saving the Earth from reckless consumption).

a liberal in redsville

]]> typically pitiful pitance pacifies party patriots

It was a shock to hear Dubya talk about our addiction to oil- a pleasant, 5 volt kind of shock, capable of flipping a bit, but not of driving any current. But is that where your expectations are? I remember when we were leaders in new technology, forward thinking, inpiring and assisting the world into better, easier days. Is this kind of funding going to put US in the lead? Remember Japan's 10 billion in solar subsidies? This administration's contribution to the biggest problem in the history of man on Earth (global warming) is nothing to cheer about. Sounds like lip service to pacify elements of the party who admit there is a need for action and to thereby solidify the real push to dominate and control the world for US consumption.

Clearly, greed is still calling the shots from the White House. I suspect another big push to drill in the parks and the reserves will follow as the means to execute the Bush plan for energy independence (which has nothing to do with saving the Earth from reckless consumption).

a liberal in redsville

]]>