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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Since offshore oil is de minimis, why shouldn&#8217;t Obama and the Dems make a deal? Part 1]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Russ</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 02:21:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/1</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>bad deal<p>The idea that there's some kind of binding grand compromise in the offing here is a foolish one.<p>
Do you really think any "deal" with these people will hold up? You can make deals, and then they'll just renege on their part of the bargain while making further demands.<br>
They'll demand ever more subsidies, tax breaks, royalty alienation, rollback of environmental regulations....At the same time they'll demand that "alternative" investment go to coal-to-liquids, coal spray-n-pray scams, CCS RD&amp;D boondoggles, nukes, the hydrogen cell procrastination scam, etc.<p>
This is just old-fashioned appeasement plain and simple. (This comparison is precise. if you're worried about public opinion, remember that 30s appeasement was very popular.)<p>
This is pandering to the flat earth notion that we can drill and burn our way out of the mess we're in from being addicted to drilling and burning. It's Homer Simpson sinking in the tarpit, plunging in his arms to extract his legs, and then his face to extract his arms.<br>
If you really think the political situation is so hopeless that you still want to pander while Rome burns, you might as well just give up and admit, we're lost.<p>
The Democrats certainly do need a better message, but what, if the people are such idiots? The enemy knows exactly what they want to do - keep the fossil fuel party going to the dead end, and permanently forestall any transformation beyond fossil fuels. They're certainly willing to make a tactical "compromise", since they know when they bust the deal, the Dems will just cave in again, as they always do, and be willing to make another deal. As McCain has admitted, the point of offshore drilling is not to really do anything about price and supply (which he knows it won't), but to send a psychological signal, to help keep everyone in the bunker (and of course to add more obscene profits to Big Oil's treasure hoard).<p>
Of course, I'm aware of the political realities, that there's almost zero chance of America growing out of its clinical retardism and actually assuming adult responsibilities, that there's almost 100% chance we'll just continue to whine and pout and demand and scream "IT'S MINE!" So almost certainly every drop that can be drilled eventually will, of course at zero benefit to all these spoiled brats, just at tremendous profit to the dinosaur corporations.<p>
So if a "deal" has to be attempted, there's at least one thing which seems obvious. I'd demand part of the deal be and end to ALL fossil fuel subsidies, incentives, royalty waivers, etc. Perhaps that's one issue WE could "demagogue". After all, when they refuse, we could say to the people, <br>
"The deal's all set, but even as they pile up endless billions of dollars in profits they still refuse to give up their corporate welfare handouts which we know you hate so much. So THAT'S why your gasoline is going to keep getting more expensive - because ExxonMobil refuses to take $11 billion instead of $11.5, and their waterboys in Congress are worried about getting less in bribes, er, campaign contributions. That's why the Republicans are holding up the drilling deal." <br>
(Perhaps this could be a poison pill to kill the deal, save the seas and coasts, while trying to turn the tables of obstructionism perception.)<p>
As for Obama's willingness to temporize here, do you really think he's making a cold political calculation, or is this more evidence that he's soft in the face of the intransigence of greed and power? Other examples - health care, FISA, Iraq. &nbsp;Also the general tenor of his campaign, as described by <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/opinion/04krugman.html?_r=1&amp;ref=opinion&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">Paul Krugman:<p>
 <br>
Incidentally, it's surprising that the lousy economy hasn't yet had more impact on the campaign. Mr. McCain essentially proposes continuing the policies of a president whose approval rating on economics is only 20 percent. So why isn't Mr. Obama further ahead in the polls?<p>
One answer may be that Mr. Obama, perhaps inhibited by his desire to transcend partisanship (and avoid praising the last Democratic president?), has been surprisingly diffident about attacking the Bush economic record. An illustration: if you go to the official Obama Web site and click on the economic issues page, what you see first isn't a call for change -- what you see is a long quote from the candidate extolling the wonders of the free market, which could just as easily have come from a speech by President Bush. <p>
There's one thing we have to get straight - you can make a temporary deal, retreat a little bit, but that'll only cause them to step forward and attack again. There can never be a "compromise". They'll never compromise. Greed fundamentalism never does, and never can. <p>
&nbsp; </p></p></p></br></p></a></p></br></br></p></p></p></br></p></p></br></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>bad deal<p>The idea that there's some kind of binding grand compromise in the offing here is a foolish one.<p>
Do you really think any "deal" with these people will hold up? You can make deals, and then they'll just renege on their part of the bargain while making further demands.<br>
They'll demand ever more subsidies, tax breaks, royalty alienation, rollback of environmental regulations....At the same time they'll demand that "alternative" investment go to coal-to-liquids, coal spray-n-pray scams, CCS RD&amp;D boondoggles, nukes, the hydrogen cell procrastination scam, etc.<p>
This is just old-fashioned appeasement plain and simple. (This comparison is precise. if you're worried about public opinion, remember that 30s appeasement was very popular.)<p>
This is pandering to the flat earth notion that we can drill and burn our way out of the mess we're in from being addicted to drilling and burning. It's Homer Simpson sinking in the tarpit, plunging in his arms to extract his legs, and then his face to extract his arms.<br>
If you really think the political situation is so hopeless that you still want to pander while Rome burns, you might as well just give up and admit, we're lost.<p>
The Democrats certainly do need a better message, but what, if the people are such idiots? The enemy knows exactly what they want to do - keep the fossil fuel party going to the dead end, and permanently forestall any transformation beyond fossil fuels. They're certainly willing to make a tactical "compromise", since they know when they bust the deal, the Dems will just cave in again, as they always do, and be willing to make another deal. As McCain has admitted, the point of offshore drilling is not to really do anything about price and supply (which he knows it won't), but to send a psychological signal, to help keep everyone in the bunker (and of course to add more obscene profits to Big Oil's treasure hoard).<p>
Of course, I'm aware of the political realities, that there's almost zero chance of America growing out of its clinical retardism and actually assuming adult responsibilities, that there's almost 100% chance we'll just continue to whine and pout and demand and scream "IT'S MINE!" So almost certainly every drop that can be drilled eventually will, of course at zero benefit to all these spoiled brats, just at tremendous profit to the dinosaur corporations.<p>
So if a "deal" has to be attempted, there's at least one thing which seems obvious. I'd demand part of the deal be and end to ALL fossil fuel subsidies, incentives, royalty waivers, etc. Perhaps that's one issue WE could "demagogue". After all, when they refuse, we could say to the people, <br>
"The deal's all set, but even as they pile up endless billions of dollars in profits they still refuse to give up their corporate welfare handouts which we know you hate so much. So THAT'S why your gasoline is going to keep getting more expensive - because ExxonMobil refuses to take $11 billion instead of $11.5, and their waterboys in Congress are worried about getting less in bribes, er, campaign contributions. That's why the Republicans are holding up the drilling deal." <br>
(Perhaps this could be a poison pill to kill the deal, save the seas and coasts, while trying to turn the tables of obstructionism perception.)<p>
As for Obama's willingness to temporize here, do you really think he's making a cold political calculation, or is this more evidence that he's soft in the face of the intransigence of greed and power? Other examples - health care, FISA, Iraq. &nbsp;Also the general tenor of his campaign, as described by <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/opinion/04krugman.html?_r=1&amp;ref=opinion&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">Paul Krugman:<p>
 <br>
Incidentally, it's surprising that the lousy economy hasn't yet had more impact on the campaign. Mr. McCain essentially proposes continuing the policies of a president whose approval rating on economics is only 20 percent. So why isn't Mr. Obama further ahead in the polls?<p>
One answer may be that Mr. Obama, perhaps inhibited by his desire to transcend partisanship (and avoid praising the last Democratic president?), has been surprisingly diffident about attacking the Bush economic record. An illustration: if you go to the official Obama Web site and click on the economic issues page, what you see first isn't a call for change -- what you see is a long quote from the candidate extolling the wonders of the free market, which could just as easily have come from a speech by President Bush. <p>
There's one thing we have to get straight - you can make a temporary deal, retreat a little bit, but that'll only cause them to step forward and attack again. There can never be a "compromise". They'll never compromise. Greed fundamentalism never does, and never can. <p>
&nbsp; </p></p></p></br></p></a></p></br></br></p></p></p></br></p></p></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by archigeek</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 02:29:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>^^^up</strong></p><p>What he said.

<p>The mellotron is your friend.</p></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>^^^up</strong></p><p>What he said.

<p>The mellotron is your friend.</p></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:19:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Once Again...an argument without axioms</strong></p><p><br>
The thing is people launched into the whole yes/no about offshore drilling as if we were all 50 year old Senators in the late 1970s who remembered every word. &nbsp; I feel like I walked into the middle...not the beginning of a debate.</p><p>
First off, though I've asked here several times...I have yet to hear the definitive list of what's wrong with offshore drilling. &nbsp;And nobody has answered by challenge that it seems to fit the Green paradigm of local production...less transportation...more control...less chance for error.</p><p>
Could someone take us back to Square One and re-iterate the real concerns, problems, benefits of offshore oil? &nbsp; &nbsp; And why can't it be a little bit? &nbsp;Why can't we have some offshore...not end to end drilling platforms. &nbsp;<br>
</br></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Once Again...an argument without axioms</strong></p><p><br>
The thing is people launched into the whole yes/no about offshore drilling as if we were all 50 year old Senators in the late 1970s who remembered every word. &nbsp; I feel like I walked into the middle...not the beginning of a debate.</p><p>
First off, though I've asked here several times...I have yet to hear the definitive list of what's wrong with offshore drilling. &nbsp;And nobody has answered by challenge that it seems to fit the Green paradigm of local production...less transportation...more control...less chance for error.</p><p>
Could someone take us back to Square One and re-iterate the real concerns, problems, benefits of offshore oil? &nbsp; &nbsp; And why can't it be a little bit? &nbsp;Why can't we have some offshore...not end to end drilling platforms. &nbsp;<br>
</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by 314159265</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:29:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-for-nothing/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>numbers, jabailo, numbers</strong></p><p>and very simple math.<br>
But obviously still too complex for the average U.S. senator. Please send more horses to D.C.

<p>Mars J. Pictor Florifulgurator, Western Bavarian Forest.</p></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>numbers, jabailo, numbers</strong></p><p>and very simple math.<br>
But obviously still too complex for the average U.S. senator. Please send more horses to D.C.

<p>Mars J. Pictor Florifulgurator, Western Bavarian Forest.</p></br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
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