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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Get to stitchin&#8217;, bitchez]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:18:44 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Funny...</strong></p><p>Sarah writes good, dripping with sarcasm as well. &nbsp;As somebody involved in bay dolphins in lower Texas, however, it was very disturbing. &nbsp;I know several wildlife permit holders down here that would almost have a stroke at the mere suggestion of using them for DHS anti-terror programs. &nbsp;</p><p>
The males are worthless and the females are cranky when they have babies. &nbsp;The males just want to play and screw (um, making sense here?). &nbsp;The females travel in pods and take turns in protecting the babies from the randy males, sharks, and those insane Jet-skis. &nbsp;Both fight very rough and except for circus acts such as Sea World, are pretty much worthless for national defense. &nbsp;</p><p>
I am not sure an otter, seal, or sea lion has more of a brain than a dog, and that suggestion seemed even more remote. &nbsp;But taken together, the proposal is ANIMAL ABUSE.</p><p>
And when you write cute things like knitting warmies for dolphins, although you didn't mean it that way, that is also ANIMAL ABUSE.</p><p>
If you or I did that kind of thing we'd be behind bars in some jail, wildlife permit or no. &nbsp;For the US Navy to even consider this is unconscionable.</p><p>
/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Funny...</strong></p><p>Sarah writes good, dripping with sarcasm as well. &nbsp;As somebody involved in bay dolphins in lower Texas, however, it was very disturbing. &nbsp;I know several wildlife permit holders down here that would almost have a stroke at the mere suggestion of using them for DHS anti-terror programs. &nbsp;</p><p>
The males are worthless and the females are cranky when they have babies. &nbsp;The males just want to play and screw (um, making sense here?). &nbsp;The females travel in pods and take turns in protecting the babies from the randy males, sharks, and those insane Jet-skis. &nbsp;Both fight very rough and except for circus acts such as Sea World, are pretty much worthless for national defense. &nbsp;</p><p>
I am not sure an otter, seal, or sea lion has more of a brain than a dog, and that suggestion seemed even more remote. &nbsp;But taken together, the proposal is ANIMAL ABUSE.</p><p>
And when you write cute things like knitting warmies for dolphins, although you didn't mean it that way, that is also ANIMAL ABUSE.</p><p>
If you or I did that kind of thing we'd be behind bars in some jail, wildlife permit or no. &nbsp;For the US Navy to even consider this is unconscionable.</p><p>
/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:20:02 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>will it work?, is it well done?</strong></p><p>O dear Sam, surely you understand that Sarah v.S., one of whose many names-under-sail is Ironic Sal, is not seriously looking forward to seeing marine mammals fitted out in woolen wraps and mittens. &nbsp;Is it not clear that these knitters are performing a brilliant act of protest, on behalf of our cousins in the water?</p><p>
On dolphin behavior: You clearly know a lot about the subject. &nbsp;It is one of the moral dangers of public aquariums, with shows of trained bottlenose dolphins and orcas, that generally we come to assume that those animals can be "taught tricks" in the same way as dogs. &nbsp;We should understand that there is no simple dividing line between "domesticable" and "wild," when we talk about non-human animals. &nbsp;Really, dolphins, including orcas, the largest dolphins, belong more on the "wild" side. &nbsp;But obviously, their intelligence and highly adaptable social nature (e.g., they are observed to hunt cooperatively with dolphins of other species) have led to their being able to negotiate certain prudent arrangements with their human captors; hence, they are frequently exhibited in aquarium shows. &nbsp;But that impressive level of cooperation should not be interpreted as their having been domesticated.</p><p>
For bottlenose dolphins along the Pacific coast, Monterey is very much at the northern extreme, perhaps even beyond the northern extreme, of where they choose to live. &nbsp;So plunking them down in Puget Sound is surely a case of animal abuse.</p><p>
As for the sea lions, fairly close cousins to dogs (unlike the dolphins and whales, who are ocean-going hippopotamuses), I am confused about their "educability." &nbsp;You, Sammie, write,"I am not sure an otter, seal, or sea lion has more of a brain than a dog, and that suggestion seemed even more remote. &nbsp;But taken together, the proposal is ANIMAL ABUSE."</p><p>
Well, I am no expert, but it seems well established that all carnivores have to be smart, with regard to certain circumstances involving hunting and sociability. &nbsp;And wild carnivores are "smarter" than dogs -- but I am not sure "smarter" is quite the right word. &nbsp;(No offence meant, Little Dog.) &nbsp;Genetically, wolves and dogs are barely distinguishable; but wolves have larger brains. &nbsp;Doggy adaptations include a remarkable cooperativeness with the human beings who feed them, which of course wild carnivores tend to lack. &nbsp;But inasmuch as they depend on their society with humans, and their brilliance at reading human signals, they have lost the adaptiveness of wolves, and even more remarkably, of coyotes, to learning and interpreting all kinds of signals.</p><p>
As for cats, I know too little about them at this point to comment. &nbsp;That they are generally able so successfully to mix cooperation with humans with a basic independence is amazing, and suggests a unique kind of intelligence.</p><p>
Digressively, on cats, I recently saw, again, that African wildlife epic "Born Free." &nbsp;It was a great favorite of mine back in the 1960s. &nbsp;Forty years later, however, I was horrified: Elsa was wonderful, clearly (and so was the lioness-actress who took her part); but Joy Adamson deserved to be shackled in a dungeon. &nbsp;Ah, the poor Adamsons: weren't they both killed by lions? &nbsp;Talk about irony! ...</p><p>
Anyway, back to sea lions: They too have been taught to do "tricks" in aquariums, so assuming that the reward system is in place, I do not doubt that they can do this cuffing "trick."</p><p>
But how do they know if a swimmer or scuba diver is a "terrorist" or not?</p><p>
Does Al-Qaeda have swimming pools at those reconstructed camps in Waziristan? &nbsp;Somehow, scuba diving does not seem the kind of tactic that would come to them naturally.</p><p>
But of course, one should not underestimate them. &nbsp;In that case, though, would they not understand at this point that they must kill any dolphin or sea lion which approaches them? &nbsp;God forbid!</p><p>
Did the dolphins and sea lions have explained to them what they were in for?

<p>Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!</p></p>
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				<p><strong>will it work?, is it well done?</strong></p><p>O dear Sam, surely you understand that Sarah v.S., one of whose many names-under-sail is Ironic Sal, is not seriously looking forward to seeing marine mammals fitted out in woolen wraps and mittens. &nbsp;Is it not clear that these knitters are performing a brilliant act of protest, on behalf of our cousins in the water?</p><p>
On dolphin behavior: You clearly know a lot about the subject. &nbsp;It is one of the moral dangers of public aquariums, with shows of trained bottlenose dolphins and orcas, that generally we come to assume that those animals can be "taught tricks" in the same way as dogs. &nbsp;We should understand that there is no simple dividing line between "domesticable" and "wild," when we talk about non-human animals. &nbsp;Really, dolphins, including orcas, the largest dolphins, belong more on the "wild" side. &nbsp;But obviously, their intelligence and highly adaptable social nature (e.g., they are observed to hunt cooperatively with dolphins of other species) have led to their being able to negotiate certain prudent arrangements with their human captors; hence, they are frequently exhibited in aquarium shows. &nbsp;But that impressive level of cooperation should not be interpreted as their having been domesticated.</p><p>
For bottlenose dolphins along the Pacific coast, Monterey is very much at the northern extreme, perhaps even beyond the northern extreme, of where they choose to live. &nbsp;So plunking them down in Puget Sound is surely a case of animal abuse.</p><p>
As for the sea lions, fairly close cousins to dogs (unlike the dolphins and whales, who are ocean-going hippopotamuses), I am confused about their "educability." &nbsp;You, Sammie, write,"I am not sure an otter, seal, or sea lion has more of a brain than a dog, and that suggestion seemed even more remote. &nbsp;But taken together, the proposal is ANIMAL ABUSE."</p><p>
Well, I am no expert, but it seems well established that all carnivores have to be smart, with regard to certain circumstances involving hunting and sociability. &nbsp;And wild carnivores are "smarter" than dogs -- but I am not sure "smarter" is quite the right word. &nbsp;(No offence meant, Little Dog.) &nbsp;Genetically, wolves and dogs are barely distinguishable; but wolves have larger brains. &nbsp;Doggy adaptations include a remarkable cooperativeness with the human beings who feed them, which of course wild carnivores tend to lack. &nbsp;But inasmuch as they depend on their society with humans, and their brilliance at reading human signals, they have lost the adaptiveness of wolves, and even more remarkably, of coyotes, to learning and interpreting all kinds of signals.</p><p>
As for cats, I know too little about them at this point to comment. &nbsp;That they are generally able so successfully to mix cooperation with humans with a basic independence is amazing, and suggests a unique kind of intelligence.</p><p>
Digressively, on cats, I recently saw, again, that African wildlife epic "Born Free." &nbsp;It was a great favorite of mine back in the 1960s. &nbsp;Forty years later, however, I was horrified: Elsa was wonderful, clearly (and so was the lioness-actress who took her part); but Joy Adamson deserved to be shackled in a dungeon. &nbsp;Ah, the poor Adamsons: weren't they both killed by lions? &nbsp;Talk about irony! ...</p><p>
Anyway, back to sea lions: They too have been taught to do "tricks" in aquariums, so assuming that the reward system is in place, I do not doubt that they can do this cuffing "trick."</p><p>
But how do they know if a swimmer or scuba diver is a "terrorist" or not?</p><p>
Does Al-Qaeda have swimming pools at those reconstructed camps in Waziristan? &nbsp;Somehow, scuba diving does not seem the kind of tactic that would come to them naturally.</p><p>
But of course, one should not underestimate them. &nbsp;In that case, though, would they not understand at this point that they must kill any dolphin or sea lion which approaches them? &nbsp;God forbid!</p><p>
Did the dolphins and sea lions have explained to them what they were in for?

<p>Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 04:38:05 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/something-fishy-knitting-for-dolphins/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Arrr<p>I pray this yarn not be made of wool... &nbsp;

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Arrr<p>I pray this yarn not be made of wool... &nbsp;

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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