<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Mag’s green issue exalts cap-and-trade]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by maxgladwell http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Thu, 17 Apr 2008 10:19:17 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/1 Is it a "green" issue?

I'm just wondering if people are going to criticize this issue for not being printed on recycled paper (I'm assuming it's not). I've been in a number of debates lately on this issue, what with it being "Green Issue" season and all, and my opinion is this: these are news organizations that are doing valuable reporting on important issues surrounding sustainability and climate change. However, the token effort to produce these so-called green issues on recycled paper would be meaningless in the absence of a company-wide sustainability effort and would actually qualify as greenwashing.

I appreciate the efforts of media like Time and Vanity Fair to cover these issues simply because they are relevant and important (like the Iraq war or Darfur or the '08 election). But I don't expect them to throw us a bone with one issue of recycled paper, only to go back to virgin stock the next month. Mainstream media is a HUGE part of the solution; its reach is invaluable. But we also have to realize that these are HUGE corporations that will find their way to sustainability sooner or later one way or another. Should we pressure them? Absolutely. Should we settle for one issue per year on recycled paper? Hell no. Should we call them hypocrites for reporting on green issues when the issue and the company itself are not green? No. Because they're not hypocrites. They don't claim to be green. They are just reporting on it. And the net impact of that reporting can be 1000X the value of Time-Warner itself going green.  

www.MaxGladwell.com The Nexus of Social Media and Green Living

]]> Is it a "green" issue?

I'm just wondering if people are going to criticize this issue for not being printed on recycled paper (I'm assuming it's not). I've been in a number of debates lately on this issue, what with it being "Green Issue" season and all, and my opinion is this: these are news organizations that are doing valuable reporting on important issues surrounding sustainability and climate change. However, the token effort to produce these so-called green issues on recycled paper would be meaningless in the absence of a company-wide sustainability effort and would actually qualify as greenwashing.

I appreciate the efforts of media like Time and Vanity Fair to cover these issues simply because they are relevant and important (like the Iraq war or Darfur or the '08 election). But I don't expect them to throw us a bone with one issue of recycled paper, only to go back to virgin stock the next month. Mainstream media is a HUGE part of the solution; its reach is invaluable. But we also have to realize that these are HUGE corporations that will find their way to sustainability sooner or later one way or another. Should we pressure them? Absolutely. Should we settle for one issue per year on recycled paper? Hell no. Should we call them hypocrites for reporting on green issues when the issue and the company itself are not green? No. Because they're not hypocrites. They don't claim to be green. They are just reporting on it. And the net impact of that reporting can be 1000X the value of Time-Warner itself going green.  

www.MaxGladwell.com The Nexus of Social Media and Green Living

]]> Comment #2 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:56:47 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/2 Sales Tax...or Income Tax ?


The cap and trade system seems to me more of a "sales tax".   It only regulates industry and passes the cost on to us in terms of higher priced goods.

As we know, sales taxes are regressive.  They affect the poor -- who end up paying more for food, clothing, transportation as a percentage of income.

What about Carbon income (or rather Outgo) taxes?

What about consumption?

Under this example, Richard Branson is free to pursue his carbon spewing lifestyle, while Joe Slobobnik is taxed further into the grave.

Yet, as we know, a single airplane flight (of which Sir Richard takes many) can equal the carbon output of an entire regular family for half a year!

J. Bailo Participant Texeme.Construct()



]]> Sales Tax...or Income Tax ?


The cap and trade system seems to me more of a "sales tax".   It only regulates industry and passes the cost on to us in terms of higher priced goods.

As we know, sales taxes are regressive.  They affect the poor -- who end up paying more for food, clothing, transportation as a percentage of income.

What about Carbon income (or rather Outgo) taxes?

What about consumption?

Under this example, Richard Branson is free to pursue his carbon spewing lifestyle, while Joe Slobobnik is taxed further into the grave.

Yet, as we know, a single airplane flight (of which Sir Richard takes many) can equal the carbon output of an entire regular family for half a year!

J. Bailo Participant Texeme.Construct()



]]> Comment #3 by TheGreenMiles http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:45:06 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/3 Disappointed in cover art

I'd much rather have seen them raising a windmill. Would've looked better than the weird tree, anyway -  the branches are so high up it looks more like one of those "this clearly is in no way a cell phone tower but rather a tree" structures.

Join the discussion on global warming, recycling, and organic beer at The Green Miles!

]]> Disappointed in cover art

I'd much rather have seen them raising a windmill. Would've looked better than the weird tree, anyway -  the branches are so high up it looks more like one of those "this clearly is in no way a cell phone tower but rather a tree" structures.

Join the discussion on global warming, recycling, and organic beer at The Green Miles!

]]> Comment #4 by stevenearlsalmony http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:46:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/4 The grandiose thinking and unsustainable..........

....... behavior of the pols, wheelers and dealers, pyramid scheme pros and sub prime swindle specialists managing the global political economy.

I am imagining that the following questions are rhetorical ones to many people in the Gristmill community.

"Why are politicians and skeptics so willing to risk their future and everyone else's future on blindly clinging to a course of action that has a high probability of leading to a seriously crippled future? If you even suspect that global warming represents a serious risk to your survival (and we have far more than suspicion these days), why wouldn't you do everything protect and conserve your planet?"

It would please me to hear from others; but from my humble perspective the "answers" to these questions are all-too-obvious.

The leaders in my generation of elders wish to live without having to accept limits to growth of seemingly endless economic globalization, of increasing per capita consumption and skyrocketing human population numbers; our desires are evidently insatiable. We choose to believe anything that is politically convenient, economically expedient and socially agreeable; our way of life is not negotiable. We dare anyone to question our values or behaviors.

We religiously promote our shared fantasies of endless economic growth and soon to be unsustainable overconsumption, overproduction oand overpopulation activities, and in so doing deny that Earth has limited resources upon which the survival of life as we know it depends.

My not-so-great generation appears to be doing a disservice to everything and everyone but ourselves. We are the "what's in it for me?" generation. We demonstrate precious little regard for the maintenance of the integrity of Earth; shallow willingness to actually protect the environment from crippling degradation; lack of serious consideration for the preservation of biodiversity, wilderness, and a good enough future for our children and coming generations; and no appreciation of the understanding that we are no more or less than human beings with "feet of clay."

We live arrogantly in a soon to be unsustainable way in our planetary home and are proud of it, thank you very much. Certainly, we will "have our cake and eat it, too." We will fly around in thousands of private jets, own fleets of cars, live in McMansions, exchange secret handshakes, go to our exclusive clubs and distant hideouts, and risk nothing of value to us. Please do not bother us with the problems of the world. We choose not to hear, see or speak of them. We are the economic powerbrokers, their bought-and-paid-for politicians and the many minions in the mass media. We hold most of the Earth's wealth and control the power it purchases. If left to our own devices, we will continue in the exercise of our `rights' to ravenously consume Earth's limited resources; to expand economic globalization unto every corner of our natural world and, guess what, beyond; to encourage the unbridled growth of the human species so that where there are now 6+ billion people, by 2050 we will have 9+ billion members of the human community and, guess what, even more people, perhaps billions more in the distant future, if that is what we desire.

We are the reigning, self-proclaimed masters of the universe. We have no regard for human limits or Earth's limitations, thank you very much. We are idolaters of the global political economy. Please understand that we do not want anyone to present us with scientific evidence that we could be living unsustainably in an artificially designed, temporary world of our own making...... a manmade world filling up with distinctly human enterprises which appear to be approaching a point in human history when global consumption, production and propagation activities of the human species become unsustainable on the tiny planet God has blessed us to inhabit........and not to overwhelm, I suppose.

Sincerely,

Steve

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population,
established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/


]]> The grandiose thinking and unsustainable..........

....... behavior of the pols, wheelers and dealers, pyramid scheme pros and sub prime swindle specialists managing the global political economy.

I am imagining that the following questions are rhetorical ones to many people in the Gristmill community.

"Why are politicians and skeptics so willing to risk their future and everyone else's future on blindly clinging to a course of action that has a high probability of leading to a seriously crippled future? If you even suspect that global warming represents a serious risk to your survival (and we have far more than suspicion these days), why wouldn't you do everything protect and conserve your planet?"

It would please me to hear from others; but from my humble perspective the "answers" to these questions are all-too-obvious.

The leaders in my generation of elders wish to live without having to accept limits to growth of seemingly endless economic globalization, of increasing per capita consumption and skyrocketing human population numbers; our desires are evidently insatiable. We choose to believe anything that is politically convenient, economically expedient and socially agreeable; our way of life is not negotiable. We dare anyone to question our values or behaviors.

We religiously promote our shared fantasies of endless economic growth and soon to be unsustainable overconsumption, overproduction oand overpopulation activities, and in so doing deny that Earth has limited resources upon which the survival of life as we know it depends.

My not-so-great generation appears to be doing a disservice to everything and everyone but ourselves. We are the "what's in it for me?" generation. We demonstrate precious little regard for the maintenance of the integrity of Earth; shallow willingness to actually protect the environment from crippling degradation; lack of serious consideration for the preservation of biodiversity, wilderness, and a good enough future for our children and coming generations; and no appreciation of the understanding that we are no more or less than human beings with "feet of clay."

We live arrogantly in a soon to be unsustainable way in our planetary home and are proud of it, thank you very much. Certainly, we will "have our cake and eat it, too." We will fly around in thousands of private jets, own fleets of cars, live in McMansions, exchange secret handshakes, go to our exclusive clubs and distant hideouts, and risk nothing of value to us. Please do not bother us with the problems of the world. We choose not to hear, see or speak of them. We are the economic powerbrokers, their bought-and-paid-for politicians and the many minions in the mass media. We hold most of the Earth's wealth and control the power it purchases. If left to our own devices, we will continue in the exercise of our `rights' to ravenously consume Earth's limited resources; to expand economic globalization unto every corner of our natural world and, guess what, beyond; to encourage the unbridled growth of the human species so that where there are now 6+ billion people, by 2050 we will have 9+ billion members of the human community and, guess what, even more people, perhaps billions more in the distant future, if that is what we desire.

We are the reigning, self-proclaimed masters of the universe. We have no regard for human limits or Earth's limitations, thank you very much. We are idolaters of the global political economy. Please understand that we do not want anyone to present us with scientific evidence that we could be living unsustainably in an artificially designed, temporary world of our own making...... a manmade world filling up with distinctly human enterprises which appear to be approaching a point in human history when global consumption, production and propagation activities of the human species become unsustainable on the tiny planet God has blessed us to inhabit........and not to overwhelm, I suppose.

Sincerely,

Steve

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population,
established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/


]]> Comment #5 by enki http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:38:40 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/5 making it personal

So if I make contributions to charities tax deductible and then set up my own charity and donate heavily to myself I can live tax free? Cool. Sounds like cap n trade to me...

Mike Johnston

]]> making it personal

So if I make contributions to charities tax deductible and then set up my own charity and donate heavily to myself I can live tax free? Cool. Sounds like cap n trade to me...

Mike Johnston

]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:22:57 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/6 Time sucks

It is the flagship of mass delusional media.

I can't actually read it.  It was hard enough reading the excerpts.  

So please don't tell me, let me guess.

No mention of hedge fund bubble problems with the trade part.  

No mention that caps can be raised at will by a GOP government.

No mention of a distributed renewable smart grid powering plugin hybrids and geo heat exchange heated/cooled buildings.  

No mention of direct subsidy diversion from fossil, nucleatr, and fuel farming industries straight to homeowners and farmers who install solar, wind, and farm biogas power.

Plenty of blah, blah, blahing about cellulosic ethanol, clean coal, and newer, safer nuclear power.

Am I right?  Of course, mass delusion, Time reports, we throw it in the recycling bin.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Time sucks

It is the flagship of mass delusional media.

I can't actually read it.  It was hard enough reading the excerpts.  

So please don't tell me, let me guess.

No mention of hedge fund bubble problems with the trade part.  

No mention that caps can be raised at will by a GOP government.

No mention of a distributed renewable smart grid powering plugin hybrids and geo heat exchange heated/cooled buildings.  

No mention of direct subsidy diversion from fossil, nucleatr, and fuel farming industries straight to homeowners and farmers who install solar, wind, and farm biogas power.

Plenty of blah, blah, blahing about cellulosic ethanol, clean coal, and newer, safer nuclear power.

Am I right?  Of course, mass delusion, Time reports, we throw it in the recycling bin.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #7 by caniscandida http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:34:37 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/7 Absolutely, Amazing!

We have had a subscription to Newsweek for many years, and are about to let it drop.

On raising the pine tree: Yes, that is a weak image.

After all, the original image of raising the flag on Iwo Jima is notoriously concocted.

Which is more American, and more patriotic: loving the erection of a flag, or loving honesty, sincerity and truth?

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

]]> Absolutely, Amazing!

We have had a subscription to Newsweek for many years, and are about to let it drop.

On raising the pine tree: Yes, that is a weak image.

After all, the original image of raising the flag on Iwo Jima is notoriously concocted.

Which is more American, and more patriotic: loving the erection of a flag, or loving honesty, sincerity and truth?

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

]]> Comment #8 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 01:45:03 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/8 Our solutions?

This is what Time calls them:

"...naive wish lists that could cripple America's growth"

I bet the nitwit who wrote this trash doesn't even know what a plugin hybrid is or geo heat exchange.  And has never heard of a distributed renewable smart grid.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Our solutions?

This is what Time calls them:

"...naive wish lists that could cripple America's growth"

I bet the nitwit who wrote this trash doesn't even know what a plugin hybrid is or geo heat exchange.  And has never heard of a distributed renewable smart grid.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #9 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:06:15 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/9 Cap and trade costs

"A new study by the National Association of Manufacturers, an industry trade group, estimates that Lieberman-Warner would cost the U.S. up to 4?million jobs by 2030 while eroding gdp by up to $669 billion per year. "The environmental community would have you believe that you can make these changes and not only will there not be negative consequences, there'll be positive consequences," says Republican Representative Joe Barton, ranking minority member of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce."

Let's look at the alternative.

Direct subsidy diversion.  Take even 50 billion in subsidies away from fossil, nuclear, and agribizz industries.  How much will that cost industry?  50 billion.

Put the 50 billion into direct per kwh payments to homeowners, farmers, and small business who install solar, wind, and biogas systems. And direct payments for geo heat exchange and plugin hybrid conservation.

This bypasses hedge funds, the cash goes to consumers, thenfrom consumers to industries that provide the energy systems and vehicles.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Cap and trade costs

"A new study by the National Association of Manufacturers, an industry trade group, estimates that Lieberman-Warner would cost the U.S. up to 4?million jobs by 2030 while eroding gdp by up to $669 billion per year. "The environmental community would have you believe that you can make these changes and not only will there not be negative consequences, there'll be positive consequences," says Republican Representative Joe Barton, ranking minority member of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce."

Let's look at the alternative.

Direct subsidy diversion.  Take even 50 billion in subsidies away from fossil, nuclear, and agribizz industries.  How much will that cost industry?  50 billion.

Put the 50 billion into direct per kwh payments to homeowners, farmers, and small business who install solar, wind, and biogas systems. And direct payments for geo heat exchange and plugin hybrid conservation.

This bypasses hedge funds, the cash goes to consumers, thenfrom consumers to industries that provide the energy systems and vehicles.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #10 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:09:16 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/10 It's a mess

Of lies Canis.  Worse than usual.  But that's Time.

I decided to use their lies against their pet project, cap and trade.  Internal inconsistency!

The mark of liars and sophists down through the ages.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> It's a mess

Of lies Canis.  Worse than usual.  But that's Time.

I decided to use their lies against their pet project, cap and trade.  Internal inconsistency!

The mark of liars and sophists down through the ages.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #11 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/ Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:16:45 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/sneak-peek-at-times-cover-story/11 Consumer costs

"such a challenge is easier for a major utility to face than it is for some consumers. Any carbon cap with teeth will boost electricity and gas prices in the short term, before carbon-free alternatives can be scaled to market, and that will hurt those already struggling to heat their homes and fill their tanks."

Yes consumers will bear the brunt of a hedge fund bubble caused by cap and trade.

With direct subsidy diversion, energy prices will only rise an incremental amount when the subsidies for big oil and coal are withdrawn.  Consumers who invest in plugin hybrids, solar, and geo heat exchange will quickly reap rewards in lower energy costs and subsidies to pay off the investments.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Consumer costs

"such a challenge is easier for a major utility to face than it is for some consumers. Any carbon cap with teeth will boost electricity and gas prices in the short term, before carbon-free alternatives can be scaled to market, and that will hurt those already struggling to heat their homes and fill their tanks."

Yes consumers will bear the brunt of a hedge fund bubble caused by cap and trade.

With direct subsidy diversion, energy prices will only rise an incremental amount when the subsidies for big oil and coal are withdrawn.  Consumers who invest in plugin hybrids, solar, and geo heat exchange will quickly reap rewards in lower energy costs and subsidies to pay off the investments.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]>