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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New study says trees are absorbing less CO2 than predicted]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:32:18 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Got ourselves into a corner<p>95% of the forests that covered the US a few hundred years ago are gone. If they reappeared, they would simply accelerate global warming. We have probably already passed several points of no return like this. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Got ourselves into a corner<p>95% of the forests that covered the US a few hundred years ago are gone. If they reappeared, they would simply accelerate global warming. We have probably already passed several points of no return like this. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Kit Stolz</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:34:21 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>another forest, another story<p>Hmmm. On NPR/National Geographic's "climate connection" series they recently had a nice piece about experiments by Harvard researchers on an old New England forest that told a different story.<p>
"When scientists started monitoring the breathing of this stand of hemlock trees, they suspected any carbon dioxide captured by new growth would be canceled out by carbon dioxide released from decaying old trees. This is one of the oldest parts of Harvard Forest. Unlike other sections, it was never cleared for agriculture but was used instead as a woodlot. Some of the trees are 300 years old.<p>
But the measurements delivered a surprise. The hemlocks capture a lot more carbon from the air than they give up: about a ton more, per acre, per year.<p>
Equally surprising is the carbon's destination: "Only about half of the carbon that gets pulled out of the atmosphere is going into wood," says Hadley. "The rest must be going into the soil."<p>
Other places in this forest, where the trees are younger, have been capturing even more carbon. And Steven Wofsy, the scientist at Harvard who pioneered the monitoring techniques used here, says at the site that he's watched the longest (17 years), the forest has been soaking up carbon faster and faster.<p>
"That is a real mystery," he says. "We know where it's going, but we don't know why. We're trying to unravel that. It's one of the big questions in climate science.""<p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17332316" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1733 ...<p>
Suspect this may be one of those science stories that resists easy conclusions. </p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>another forest, another story<p>Hmmm. On NPR/National Geographic's "climate connection" series they recently had a nice piece about experiments by Harvard researchers on an old New England forest that told a different story.<p>
"When scientists started monitoring the breathing of this stand of hemlock trees, they suspected any carbon dioxide captured by new growth would be canceled out by carbon dioxide released from decaying old trees. This is one of the oldest parts of Harvard Forest. Unlike other sections, it was never cleared for agriculture but was used instead as a woodlot. Some of the trees are 300 years old.<p>
But the measurements delivered a surprise. The hemlocks capture a lot more carbon from the air than they give up: about a ton more, per acre, per year.<p>
Equally surprising is the carbon's destination: "Only about half of the carbon that gets pulled out of the atmosphere is going into wood," says Hadley. "The rest must be going into the soil."<p>
Other places in this forest, where the trees are younger, have been capturing even more carbon. And Steven Wofsy, the scientist at Harvard who pioneered the monitoring techniques used here, says at the site that he's watched the longest (17 years), the forest has been soaking up carbon faster and faster.<p>
"That is a real mystery," he says. "We know where it's going, but we don't know why. We're trying to unravel that. It's one of the big questions in climate science.""<p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17332316" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1733 ...<p>
Suspect this may be one of those science stories that resists easy conclusions. </p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:41:28 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Your example Kit<p>also suggests that forests can be pretty durable. Power generation stations don't last forever either. My guess is that one study found a local effect, the other is predicting an overall effect. Both may be right, both may be wrong.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Your example Kit<p>also suggests that forests can be pretty durable. Power generation stations don't last forever either. My guess is that one study found a local effect, the other is predicting an overall effect. Both may be right, both may be wrong.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:45:16 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Harvard Forest<p>But then there's the story on NPR the other day from the nation's longest studied forest, the Harvard Forest here in Mass: here's a clip:<p>
"When scientists started monitoring the breathing of this stand of hemlock trees, they suspected any carbon dioxide captured by new growth would be canceled out by carbon dioxide released from decaying old trees. <p>
But the measurements delivered a surprise. The hemlocks capture a lot more carbon from the air than they give up: about a ton more, per acre, per year. <p>
Equally surprising is the carbon's destination: "Only about half of the carbon that gets pulled out of the atmosphere is going into wood," says Hadley. "The rest must be going into the soil."<p>
Other places in this forest, where the trees are younger, have been capturing even more carbon. And Steven Wofsy, the scientist at Harvard who pioneered the monitoring techniques used here, says at the site that he's watched the longest (17 years), the forest has been soaking up carbon faster and faster." <p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17332316" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1733 ...<p>
Not saying there's no merit to the study that's the subject of this post, but that this question is an awful lot bigger than just one piece of research.<p>
Erik<br>


<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,100+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Harvard Forest<p>But then there's the story on NPR the other day from the nation's longest studied forest, the Harvard Forest here in Mass: here's a clip:<p>
"When scientists started monitoring the breathing of this stand of hemlock trees, they suspected any carbon dioxide captured by new growth would be canceled out by carbon dioxide released from decaying old trees. <p>
But the measurements delivered a surprise. The hemlocks capture a lot more carbon from the air than they give up: about a ton more, per acre, per year. <p>
Equally surprising is the carbon's destination: "Only about half of the carbon that gets pulled out of the atmosphere is going into wood," says Hadley. "The rest must be going into the soil."<p>
Other places in this forest, where the trees are younger, have been capturing even more carbon. And Steven Wofsy, the scientist at Harvard who pioneered the monitoring techniques used here, says at the site that he's watched the longest (17 years), the forest has been soaking up carbon faster and faster." <p>
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17332316" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1733 ...<p>
Not saying there's no merit to the study that's the subject of this post, but that this question is an awful lot bigger than just one piece of research.<p>
Erik<br>


<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,100+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:49:14 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>you win Kit<p>Sorry for the duplication of comments: we must've been typing our responses out at the same moment, Kit.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,100+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>you win Kit<p>Sorry for the duplication of comments: we must've been typing our responses out at the same moment, Kit.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,100+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:13:19 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>all trees emit CO2</strong></p><p>Interesting, and I think the scientists are still working on the dilemma. First thing to note is that a tree will not grow unless it respires, meaning to convert sugars into growth, taking in oxygen and producing gaseous carbon dioxide. They do this 24 hours a day as long as they are alive.</p><p>
Fortunately, when the sun shines photosynthesis occurs in the reverse, creating sugars from carbon dioxide and emitting oxygen. Some numbers are heard were that for the average tree, three times as much CO2 is absorbed instead of emitted during respiration. Juvenile trees are much higher in proportion and very old trees and about even-Steven.</p><p>
But such generalizations fall apart if one examines different regional, different tree types, and effects of environmental impacts such as increased ambient CO2 and nocturnal temperature. One study seems to claim that as night-time temperatures rise, growth-related &nbsp;respiration increases rapidly. Other studies purport that trees in the Amazon is growing faster, producing more oxygen, and absorbing more CO2 than ever on a per-tree basis (e.g., lower respiration rates than expected). </p><p>
My intuition tells me that higher night-time temperatures and a prolonged drought would only increase CO2 levels from trees, thereby off-setting any environmental benefit as to CO2 reduction. Water is a key ingredient in photosynthesis and transporting sugars about the tree's organs. Therefore, the tree would utilize more stored sugars during a drought and respire much more, 24 hours a day. Not that I know much more than a layman, but a fascinating topic for naturalists. &nbsp;/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>all trees emit CO2</strong></p><p>Interesting, and I think the scientists are still working on the dilemma. First thing to note is that a tree will not grow unless it respires, meaning to convert sugars into growth, taking in oxygen and producing gaseous carbon dioxide. They do this 24 hours a day as long as they are alive.</p><p>
Fortunately, when the sun shines photosynthesis occurs in the reverse, creating sugars from carbon dioxide and emitting oxygen. Some numbers are heard were that for the average tree, three times as much CO2 is absorbed instead of emitted during respiration. Juvenile trees are much higher in proportion and very old trees and about even-Steven.</p><p>
But such generalizations fall apart if one examines different regional, different tree types, and effects of environmental impacts such as increased ambient CO2 and nocturnal temperature. One study seems to claim that as night-time temperatures rise, growth-related &nbsp;respiration increases rapidly. Other studies purport that trees in the Amazon is growing faster, producing more oxygen, and absorbing more CO2 than ever on a per-tree basis (e.g., lower respiration rates than expected). </p><p>
My intuition tells me that higher night-time temperatures and a prolonged drought would only increase CO2 levels from trees, thereby off-setting any environmental benefit as to CO2 reduction. Water is a key ingredient in photosynthesis and transporting sugars about the tree's organs. Therefore, the tree would utilize more stored sugars during a drought and respire much more, 24 hours a day. Not that I know much more than a layman, but a fascinating topic for naturalists. &nbsp;/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:09:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ineluctable Aethers...<p><br>
Anthropogenic Global Warming is sounding more and more to me like those 19th century "aethers" that physicists used to talk about. &nbsp; Whenever you read some Royal Academy scientist going on about a discovery, they always throw in something about the cause being an "ineluctable aether".<p>
So too global warming.<p>
Here's a very simple story. &nbsp; Trees are absorbing less CO2 because of warming.<p>
Now, an ordinary person would say "oh, well that's why the CO2 keeps rising...because whatever is causing the warming is affecting the trees and the result is more CO2".<p>
But no. &nbsp;Not the Grist Ecologists. &nbsp; They have to throw in the AGW aether and invent a roundabout reason to blame Man for the whole thing and somehow make it a feedback loop without ever proving causality.

<p><b><a href="http://log.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">My Log</a></b></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ineluctable Aethers...<p><br>
Anthropogenic Global Warming is sounding more and more to me like those 19th century "aethers" that physicists used to talk about. &nbsp; Whenever you read some Royal Academy scientist going on about a discovery, they always throw in something about the cause being an "ineluctable aether".<p>
So too global warming.<p>
Here's a very simple story. &nbsp; Trees are absorbing less CO2 because of warming.<p>
Now, an ordinary person would say "oh, well that's why the CO2 keeps rising...because whatever is causing the warming is affecting the trees and the result is more CO2".<p>
But no. &nbsp;Not the Grist Ecologists. &nbsp; They have to throw in the AGW aether and invent a roundabout reason to blame Man for the whole thing and somehow make it a feedback loop without ever proving causality.

<p><b><a href="http://log.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">My Log</a></b></p></p></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:57:17 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/shorter-winters-weaken-forest-carbon-sinks/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;aether&quot;</strong></p><p>Interesting you bring up that word, "aether." &nbsp;It simply means ether, although the concept included everything from evil airs at night to physical properties with less magical connotations. It turns out there were amazingly correct, as long as we take some poetic license (e.g., strong a weak forces not fully explained by particle physics). Even more astounding, trees and vegetable matter play a major role on the Earth, just as oceans do offshore. Sign, no time for a book here ...</p><p>
But I must admit, beyond the science which has shown serious doubts about trees being "carbon sinks" over the last decade, it just doesn't make any sense to give credits for planting trees - because we're cutting down the forests as fast as we can! How can we give a CO2 credit for 50 acres of new trees when 500 acres of trees were bulldozed down at the same time, and another 500 went down due to diseases and pests?</p><p>
Give me a break. &nbsp;/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;aether&quot;</strong></p><p>Interesting you bring up that word, "aether." &nbsp;It simply means ether, although the concept included everything from evil airs at night to physical properties with less magical connotations. It turns out there were amazingly correct, as long as we take some poetic license (e.g., strong a weak forces not fully explained by particle physics). Even more astounding, trees and vegetable matter play a major role on the Earth, just as oceans do offshore. Sign, no time for a book here ...</p><p>
But I must admit, beyond the science which has shown serious doubts about trees being "carbon sinks" over the last decade, it just doesn't make any sense to give credits for planting trees - because we're cutting down the forests as fast as we can! How can we give a CO2 credit for 50 acres of new trees when 500 acres of trees were bulldozed down at the same time, and another 500 went down due to diseases and pests?</p><p>
Give me a break. &nbsp;/sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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