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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for GOP leaders resort to high jinks to stall climate bill]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by randino</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:29:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Is it just Republicans?</strong></p><p>Ohio environmentalists are wondering about Sherrod Brown (D OH), who is usually on their side. In a May 3rd article in the Plain Dealer, it looked like Sherrod was going to vote with carbon loving Senator George Voinovich (R OH) against Lieberman Warner. It caused mouths to fall open all over the state. &nbsp;I don't know which way he is going at the moment, but he has really pissed off a lot of people. </p><p>
Hopefully the coming election will alter the balance of power in the Senate. But we should beware of the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" maxim. The record of the Republicans on global warming has been beyond shame and scandal. We should just recognize that our fight is not over if the Democrats sweep the elections. In reality it might prove to be a harder fight than with the Republicans. Your enemies will kick your ass. Your friends will break your heart. </p><p>
Randy Cunningham<br>
Cleveland, OH. 

<p>Randy Cunningham</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Is it just Republicans?</strong></p><p>Ohio environmentalists are wondering about Sherrod Brown (D OH), who is usually on their side. In a May 3rd article in the Plain Dealer, it looked like Sherrod was going to vote with carbon loving Senator George Voinovich (R OH) against Lieberman Warner. It caused mouths to fall open all over the state. &nbsp;I don't know which way he is going at the moment, but he has really pissed off a lot of people. </p><p>
Hopefully the coming election will alter the balance of power in the Senate. But we should beware of the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" maxim. The record of the Republicans on global warming has been beyond shame and scandal. We should just recognize that our fight is not over if the Democrats sweep the elections. In reality it might prove to be a harder fight than with the Republicans. Your enemies will kick your ass. Your friends will break your heart. </p><p>
Randy Cunningham<br>
Cleveland, OH. 

<p>Randy Cunningham</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by MAD MAC</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:50:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Senate</strong></p><p>Look, EVERYONE in the Senate is considering every political angle in everything they do. Don't think for a moment that one of these guys is more politically moral than another....... or that one party is more moral than the other. </p><p>
The issue concerning how to deal with climate change is cost - pure and simple. Who's going to pay what. Because activists have this annoying little habit of lying when it suits their purposes, a lot of time has been lost waiting for the science to solidify. Meanwhile, the politicians are doing what politicians do, which is lie, obfuscate, and dither. </p><p>
There is a lot of momentum on the issue, and as it gathers steam it will galvanize politicians across the spectrum into action. Why? Because it will be politically expedient to do so. </p><p>
So the issue needs to be kept in the forefront. Realistic options need to continue to be explored, invested in (as in renewable energies, carbon sinks, etc.) and implemented. But if you try turning this into a "good guy, bad guy" scenario.......... counter-productive. 

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Senate</strong></p><p>Look, EVERYONE in the Senate is considering every political angle in everything they do. Don't think for a moment that one of these guys is more politically moral than another....... or that one party is more moral than the other. </p><p>
The issue concerning how to deal with climate change is cost - pure and simple. Who's going to pay what. Because activists have this annoying little habit of lying when it suits their purposes, a lot of time has been lost waiting for the science to solidify. Meanwhile, the politicians are doing what politicians do, which is lie, obfuscate, and dither. </p><p>
There is a lot of momentum on the issue, and as it gathers steam it will galvanize politicians across the spectrum into action. Why? Because it will be politically expedient to do so. </p><p>
So the issue needs to be kept in the forefront. Realistic options need to continue to be explored, invested in (as in renewable energies, carbon sinks, etc.) and implemented. But if you try turning this into a "good guy, bad guy" scenario.......... counter-productive. 

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by F James Handley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 04:41:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Boxer's trap for global warming deniers<p>I'm a bit surprised that Repubicans are falling into Boxer's trap so predictably. &nbsp;The Lieberman-Warner bill never had any chance of passage. &nbsp;She forced a vote so the environmental score-keepers would notch one up for the Ds and one down for the Rs.<p>
The bill is deeply flawed -- Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and a coalition of other progressive environmental groups point out that the bill would GIVE AWAY most of the carbon emissions permits. They advocate actioning ALL permits. &nbsp;Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have also called for 100% auction of permits. &nbsp;So Lieberman-Warner is already way behind the political curve. &nbsp;<p>
But who would get the permit auction money? &nbsp;The bill gives most of it to big energy corporations. &nbsp;<p>
Rep Markey has introduced a bill in the House that would distribute auction revenue to individuals, and Sen Corker has offered a similar amendment in the Senate. &nbsp;Worthy improvements that aren't getting serious consideration (yet).<p>
Lieberman-Warner is a trail balloon, but more than that, it's a trap to bring the howling dogs who deny the climate problem out of the woodwork so Democrats can campaign against them. &nbsp;As legislation, it's a failure. &nbsp;As political strategy, it's working like clockwork, and I can't help wondering why Republicans don't try to improve the bill (or at least fake it) intstead of obstructing it. &nbsp;There's plenty to improve on (like where the revenue would go) and they could avoid being tarred as neanderthal global warming deniers. &nbsp;<p>
Too bad Boxer's political trick is working so well. &nbsp;But maybe it will lead to a realignment in the Senate.<p>
Economists agree that the gold standard for effective climate policy is a revenue-neutral carbon tax with dividend. &nbsp;Maybe the spectacular crash of Lieberman-Warner will start a discussion about better alternatives.<p>
For more about the advantages of a revenue-neutral carbon tax, see <a href="http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbontax.org.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Boxer's trap for global warming deniers<p>I'm a bit surprised that Repubicans are falling into Boxer's trap so predictably. &nbsp;The Lieberman-Warner bill never had any chance of passage. &nbsp;She forced a vote so the environmental score-keepers would notch one up for the Ds and one down for the Rs.<p>
The bill is deeply flawed -- Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and a coalition of other progressive environmental groups point out that the bill would GIVE AWAY most of the carbon emissions permits. They advocate actioning ALL permits. &nbsp;Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have also called for 100% auction of permits. &nbsp;So Lieberman-Warner is already way behind the political curve. &nbsp;<p>
But who would get the permit auction money? &nbsp;The bill gives most of it to big energy corporations. &nbsp;<p>
Rep Markey has introduced a bill in the House that would distribute auction revenue to individuals, and Sen Corker has offered a similar amendment in the Senate. &nbsp;Worthy improvements that aren't getting serious consideration (yet).<p>
Lieberman-Warner is a trail balloon, but more than that, it's a trap to bring the howling dogs who deny the climate problem out of the woodwork so Democrats can campaign against them. &nbsp;As legislation, it's a failure. &nbsp;As political strategy, it's working like clockwork, and I can't help wondering why Republicans don't try to improve the bill (or at least fake it) intstead of obstructing it. &nbsp;There's plenty to improve on (like where the revenue would go) and they could avoid being tarred as neanderthal global warming deniers. &nbsp;<p>
Too bad Boxer's political trick is working so well. &nbsp;But maybe it will lead to a realignment in the Senate.<p>
Economists agree that the gold standard for effective climate policy is a revenue-neutral carbon tax with dividend. &nbsp;Maybe the spectacular crash of Lieberman-Warner will start a discussion about better alternatives.<p>
For more about the advantages of a revenue-neutral carbon tax, see <a href="http://www.carbontax.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbontax.org.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Michael Wagner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:50:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Windowdressing???</strong></p><p>"The case for nuclear power as a low carbon energy source to replace fossil fuels has been challenged in a new report by Australian academics, "Nuclear's CO2 cost 'will climb,'" R. Rincon, BBC News, 04/30/08.</p><p>
"The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) recently put out a report that says that nuclear power is too complex and too expensive and that the lead times are way too long for nuclear power to be capable of solving the greehouse effect," The truth about uranium mining and nuclear weapons," Socialist Worker Australia, 04/20/07.</p><p>
How come we never hear about the permanent-magnet "MagLev" wind generators = 20% more output, plus its low-center of gravity = perfect for offshore wind farms = unlimited potential?</p><p>
Turn electricity into Hydrogen for "rainy days."</p>
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				<p><strong>Windowdressing???</strong></p><p>"The case for nuclear power as a low carbon energy source to replace fossil fuels has been challenged in a new report by Australian academics, "Nuclear's CO2 cost 'will climb,'" R. Rincon, BBC News, 04/30/08.</p><p>
"The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) recently put out a report that says that nuclear power is too complex and too expensive and that the lead times are way too long for nuclear power to be capable of solving the greehouse effect," The truth about uranium mining and nuclear weapons," Socialist Worker Australia, 04/20/07.</p><p>
How come we never hear about the permanent-magnet "MagLev" wind generators = 20% more output, plus its low-center of gravity = perfect for offshore wind farms = unlimited potential?</p><p>
Turn electricity into Hydrogen for "rainy days."</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Kenny B</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:08:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Evil Republicans</strong></p><p>It's rare that there's such a clear-cut bad guy in a debate. &nbsp;I can't believe how the Republicans are reacting to this. &nbsp;They're just shy of being the bad guy in an episode of Captain Planet.</p><p>
In any case, I would MUCH rather see a straight up tax on carbon, but that would be easy fodder for the planet-killing Republicans. &nbsp;They would say things like "They want to tax you for breathing," and use the old tax-happy liberal label. &nbsp;It's too easy to hate, so I don't see it happening.</p><p>
The emissions trading scheme, however, amounts to practically the same thing, but because it's not called a "tax," it gets labeled as a "market mechanism" and more people think, "I like markets because they mean money."</p><p>
That's why even though the bill is deeply flawed, it pains me to see Republicans treat it like a kid treats his medicine, using all manner of ridiculous tricks to hide from it. &nbsp;My only solace is the notion that there could be a better bill put forward in 2009.</p>
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				<p><strong>Evil Republicans</strong></p><p>It's rare that there's such a clear-cut bad guy in a debate. &nbsp;I can't believe how the Republicans are reacting to this. &nbsp;They're just shy of being the bad guy in an episode of Captain Planet.</p><p>
In any case, I would MUCH rather see a straight up tax on carbon, but that would be easy fodder for the planet-killing Republicans. &nbsp;They would say things like "They want to tax you for breathing," and use the old tax-happy liberal label. &nbsp;It's too easy to hate, so I don't see it happening.</p><p>
The emissions trading scheme, however, amounts to practically the same thing, but because it's not called a "tax," it gets labeled as a "market mechanism" and more people think, "I like markets because they mean money."</p><p>
That's why even though the bill is deeply flawed, it pains me to see Republicans treat it like a kid treats his medicine, using all manner of ridiculous tricks to hide from it. &nbsp;My only solace is the notion that there could be a better bill put forward in 2009.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:52:01 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Add It Up</strong></p><p><br>
I think the whole thing is unravelling for the Democrats.</p><p>
Stock market up.<br>
Bakken Formation gives us gas for next 300 years.<br>
New oil refinery makes us energy independent.<br>
Global temperatues declining.<br>
Gold down.</p><p>
It all adds up; the Gore hoaxers have been defrocked.</br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Add It Up</strong></p><p><br>
I think the whole thing is unravelling for the Democrats.</p><p>
Stock market up.<br>
Bakken Formation gives us gas for next 300 years.<br>
New oil refinery makes us energy independent.<br>
Global temperatues declining.<br>
Gold down.</p><p>
It all adds up; the Gore hoaxers have been defrocked.</br></br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by zenkate</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:48:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>What is the matter with everybody?</strong></p><p>Why is this stalling even happening? Our country has so many serious issues that need wise individuals to carefully evaluate the complex situations and reason out thoughtful and thorough solutions. They should not be playing power games with our COUNTRY and futures on the line! They should be ashamed of themselves for being so incredibly childish. There is debate to be had. Hash out the details like grownups, please. Time is too precious for these sophomoric political games. 

<p>The earth is our house. Let's clean it up!</p></p>
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				<p><strong>What is the matter with everybody?</strong></p><p>Why is this stalling even happening? Our country has so many serious issues that need wise individuals to carefully evaluate the complex situations and reason out thoughtful and thorough solutions. They should not be playing power games with our COUNTRY and futures on the line! They should be ashamed of themselves for being so incredibly childish. There is debate to be had. Hash out the details like grownups, please. Time is too precious for these sophomoric political games. 

<p>The earth is our house. Let's clean it up!</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:34:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/senate-all-before1/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Refining does not equal drilling...</strong></p><p>Bakken Formation gives us gas for next 300 years.</p><p>
Again, I ask, what's your source for this?</p><p>
New oil refinery makes us energy independent.</p><p>
Idiot. &nbsp;Oil refineries <strong>refine</strong> oil, that's why we call 'em oil <strong>refineries</strong>. &nbsp;They turn oil into other things, like gasoline. &nbsp;</p><p>
Refineries don't make a nation energy independent if they still get the oil for the refineries from other countries.</p><p>
Global temperatues declining.</p><p>
Not yet.</p><p>
Gold down.</p><p>
Let me guess...ya invested in Enron stocks, didn't ya?</p><p>
We've been over this, <strong>jabailo</strong>, just cause prices go up or down for a week, that doesn't make it a long-term trend.</p><p>
I suppose ya haven't seen that oil, copper, and steel prices are up, have ya? &nbsp;Along with most food stuffs?<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Refining does not equal drilling...</strong></p><p>Bakken Formation gives us gas for next 300 years.</p><p>
Again, I ask, what's your source for this?</p><p>
New oil refinery makes us energy independent.</p><p>
Idiot. &nbsp;Oil refineries <strong>refine</strong> oil, that's why we call 'em oil <strong>refineries</strong>. &nbsp;They turn oil into other things, like gasoline. &nbsp;</p><p>
Refineries don't make a nation energy independent if they still get the oil for the refineries from other countries.</p><p>
Global temperatues declining.</p><p>
Not yet.</p><p>
Gold down.</p><p>
Let me guess...ya invested in Enron stocks, didn't ya?</p><p>
We've been over this, <strong>jabailo</strong>, just cause prices go up or down for a week, that doesn't make it a long-term trend.</p><p>
I suppose ya haven't seen that oil, copper, and steel prices are up, have ya? &nbsp;Along with most food stuffs?<br>
</br></p>
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