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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for It contains some transformative measures]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by calvinjones</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 04:27:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>EE and CHP<p>"Then they added CHP/EE and they got the votes."<p>
Can we peal back the gloss please? What does this mean?<p>
A renewable energy target of 20% would be good 15% not nearly as good but progress...what is the curent level?<p>
What is the current level of CHP + Renewables?<p>
How would energy efficiency be measured...i`m asuming the rather solid metric of reduction in deman would not be used, rather there would be refrence to some sort of fictional baseline?<p>
Devil is in the details.<p>
It is entirely possible that current renewables+chp could be only a few % from the target and a poorly a high end baseline could be reduced to a slight imporvement on busines as usuall to give a few more percent (with total demand and carbon going up all the while).<br>


<p>Interested in climate change?
<a href="http://climatechangeaction.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://climatechangeaction.blogspot.com</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>EE and CHP<p>"Then they added CHP/EE and they got the votes."<p>
Can we peal back the gloss please? What does this mean?<p>
A renewable energy target of 20% would be good 15% not nearly as good but progress...what is the curent level?<p>
What is the current level of CHP + Renewables?<p>
How would energy efficiency be measured...i`m asuming the rather solid metric of reduction in deman would not be used, rather there would be refrence to some sort of fictional baseline?<p>
Devil is in the details.<p>
It is entirely possible that current renewables+chp could be only a few % from the target and a poorly a high end baseline could be reduced to a slight imporvement on busines as usuall to give a few more percent (with total demand and carbon going up all the while).<br>


<p>Interested in climate change?
<a href="http://climatechangeaction.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://climatechangeaction.blogspot.com</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:17:18 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Calvin - good questions</strong></p><p>The initial language called for 20% traditional renewables, which effectively means wind, since that is the only of the conventional with enough mass to impact the %. &nbsp;The non-windy states have always been hostile to such a provision, seeing it as a wealth transfer. &nbsp;Many arguments about externalities notwithstanding, perception is reality, and this perception has stalled many a federal RPS over the last decade. &nbsp;(Jobs in home districts always trump ideology in Congress, after all.)</p><p>
When the House realized they didn't have the votes to get 20%, they tried again at 15% but still didn't have the votes. &nbsp;This led to an amendment from Doyle &amp; Terry suggesting that energy efficiency also be added into the mix, such that new EE and cogen (with the latter earning a credit only to the extent that the new facility is more efficient than the separate baseline) would also be able to trade up to 27% of the total RPS, or 27% x 15% = 4% of the total. &nbsp;This got the votes to pass, in large part because now the industrial, non-windy states could participate. &nbsp;</p><p>
Politics being the art of the possible, we got it done, and done in a way that is really hard to game. &nbsp;I rarely praise Washington energy bills, but this one so far looks really good.</p>
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				<p><strong>Calvin - good questions</strong></p><p>The initial language called for 20% traditional renewables, which effectively means wind, since that is the only of the conventional with enough mass to impact the %. &nbsp;The non-windy states have always been hostile to such a provision, seeing it as a wealth transfer. &nbsp;Many arguments about externalities notwithstanding, perception is reality, and this perception has stalled many a federal RPS over the last decade. &nbsp;(Jobs in home districts always trump ideology in Congress, after all.)</p><p>
When the House realized they didn't have the votes to get 20%, they tried again at 15% but still didn't have the votes. &nbsp;This led to an amendment from Doyle &amp; Terry suggesting that energy efficiency also be added into the mix, such that new EE and cogen (with the latter earning a credit only to the extent that the new facility is more efficient than the separate baseline) would also be able to trade up to 27% of the total RPS, or 27% x 15% = 4% of the total. &nbsp;This got the votes to pass, in large part because now the industrial, non-windy states could participate. &nbsp;</p><p>
Politics being the art of the possible, we got it done, and done in a way that is really hard to game. &nbsp;I rarely praise Washington energy bills, but this one so far looks really good.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:02:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>New EE</strong></p><p>Being able to count energy efficiency against the RPS implies that there is a standardized way to quantify the energy savings from EE projects. &nbsp;As someone who works in building retrocommissioning, I know that this can be tricky, although there are various standards that can apply.</p><p>
Does the House bill specify the measurement standard, or how EE savings are to be quantified for purposes of the RPS?</p>
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				<p><strong>New EE</strong></p><p>Being able to count energy efficiency against the RPS implies that there is a standardized way to quantify the energy savings from EE projects. &nbsp;As someone who works in building retrocommissioning, I know that this can be tricky, although there are various standards that can apply.</p><p>
Does the House bill specify the measurement standard, or how EE savings are to be quantified for purposes of the RPS?</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:16:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>EE M&amp;V</strong></p><p>GreenEngineer,</p><p>
It is fuzzy. &nbsp;The good thing about it is that (unlike many EE bills I have seen) it does not explicitly exclude anything. &nbsp;The bad thing is that it is not clear about how it decides what it says to include.</p><p>
The broad eligibility is as follows:</p><p>


EE - "electricity savings adjusted to reflect any associated increase[s]... at the facility." &nbsp;Great spirit, but really hard to quantify, as you correctly point out. &nbsp;The key on this will clearly be at the DOE on implementation, should it get through the Senate.</p><p>
Recycled energy - "a reduction in electricity consumption that is attributable to electrical or mechanical power, or both, produced by modifying an industrial or commercial system that was in operation before July 1, 2007 in order to recapture energy that would otherwise be wasted". &nbsp;This one is fairly straightforward, and easy to see how to quantify, since the relevant equipment is all metered.</p><p>
Combined Heat and Power - "the increment of electricity output... that is attributable to the higher efficiency of the combined system (as compared to the efficiency of the separate production of the electricity and thermal outputs) &nbsp;shall be considered electricity savings..."</p><p>


For what it's worth, they do stipulate that the M&amp;V protocols are to be developed by June 30, 2009, so there is time to set this up properly before then.</p>
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				<p><strong>EE M&amp;V</strong></p><p>GreenEngineer,</p><p>
It is fuzzy. &nbsp;The good thing about it is that (unlike many EE bills I have seen) it does not explicitly exclude anything. &nbsp;The bad thing is that it is not clear about how it decides what it says to include.</p><p>
The broad eligibility is as follows:</p><p>


EE - "electricity savings adjusted to reflect any associated increase[s]... at the facility." &nbsp;Great spirit, but really hard to quantify, as you correctly point out. &nbsp;The key on this will clearly be at the DOE on implementation, should it get through the Senate.</p><p>
Recycled energy - "a reduction in electricity consumption that is attributable to electrical or mechanical power, or both, produced by modifying an industrial or commercial system that was in operation before July 1, 2007 in order to recapture energy that would otherwise be wasted". &nbsp;This one is fairly straightforward, and easy to see how to quantify, since the relevant equipment is all metered.</p><p>
Combined Heat and Power - "the increment of electricity output... that is attributable to the higher efficiency of the combined system (as compared to the efficiency of the separate production of the electricity and thermal outputs) &nbsp;shall be considered electricity savings..."</p><p>


For what it's worth, they do stipulate that the M&amp;V protocols are to be developed by June 30, 2009, so there is time to set this up properly before then.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by farnishk</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:20:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/saturday-nights-energy-bill/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Republican response - hilarious!<p>Have a look at the <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070805/pl_nm/usa_energy_house_dc" rel="nofollow">Yahoo! News article  to see what John Boehner says.<p>
"Green Pork Projects". Green Pork!!?<p>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!<p>
Have these people never heard of irony?<p>
Thank goodness the naysayers are irrelevant dinosaurs who should be buried to make the same oil they so dearly crave.<p>
Keith Farnish<br>
<a href="http://www.theearthblog.org" rel="nofollow">www.theearthblog.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Republican response - hilarious!<p>Have a look at the <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070805/pl_nm/usa_energy_house_dc" rel="nofollow">Yahoo! News article  to see what John Boehner says.<p>
"Green Pork Projects". Green Pork!!?<p>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!<p>
Have these people never heard of irony?<p>
Thank goodness the naysayers are irrelevant dinosaurs who should be buried to make the same oil they so dearly crave.<p>
Keith Farnish<br>
<a href="http://www.theearthblog.org" rel="nofollow">www.theearthblog.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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