<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The RTID package doesn’t give Seattle voters a fair choice]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:24:02 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/1 Libspeak


Only in Libspeak are automobiles not defined as "transit" when they are by far the most used "transporation system" in Seattle and the world.

John Bailo
Sutext:


]]> Libspeak


Only in Libspeak are automobiles not defined as "transit" when they are by far the most used "transporation system" in Seattle and the world.

John Bailo
Sutext:


]]> Comment #2 by nedruod http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 06:14:44 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/2 Substitute

To the roadie, roads seem the yin to transits yang.  Obviously it's not so, but their viewpoint doesn't make this obvious to them.

You are going to have to compromise to get the support of people who don't use public transportation however.  So.. find another substitute, and show them why you're more willing to fulfill that desire, than roads.

I wrote about this topic, at my blog, because we have the same problem in Illinois.  Here, their asking for schools as well as roads.  I say more schools, less roads.  I'm sure there are other ideas, possibly more appropriate to your locale.

Be creative, find something they want, and you're willing to part with and you'll get a compromise your much happier with.

]]> Substitute

To the roadie, roads seem the yin to transits yang.  Obviously it's not so, but their viewpoint doesn't make this obvious to them.

You are going to have to compromise to get the support of people who don't use public transportation however.  So.. find another substitute, and show them why you're more willing to fulfill that desire, than roads.

I wrote about this topic, at my blog, because we have the same problem in Illinois.  Here, their asking for schools as well as roads.  I say more schools, less roads.  I'm sure there are other ideas, possibly more appropriate to your locale.

Be creative, find something they want, and you're willing to part with and you'll get a compromise your much happier with.

]]> Comment #3 by Colin Wright http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:21:15 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/3 Why shy away from Peak Oil?

Erica, you and Ron Sims put forth a passionate argument.

A counterview is present in Walt Crowley's (RIP) "End of the ICE Age" (that's Internal Combustion Engine) piece in today's Seattle Times.

Either way, peak oil will soon be upon us. In my view, the most credible date is 2011. Not only do ASPO's extrapolations from previous discoveries point there, but totalling up the projects coming online give the same conclusion. (Of course, a not unlikely world recession may postpone the date a few years.) We may be one hurricane away from an Oil Shock, according to Shell's US CEO.

The entire debate will then be radically refocused. It is up to us enviros to get our heads out of the sand, and educate the public and be ready to push for huge investments in mass transit, both locally and federally.

]]> Why shy away from Peak Oil?

Erica, you and Ron Sims put forth a passionate argument.

A counterview is present in Walt Crowley's (RIP) "End of the ICE Age" (that's Internal Combustion Engine) piece in today's Seattle Times.

Either way, peak oil will soon be upon us. In my view, the most credible date is 2011. Not only do ASPO's extrapolations from previous discoveries point there, but totalling up the projects coming online give the same conclusion. (Of course, a not unlikely world recession may postpone the date a few years.) We may be one hurricane away from an Oil Shock, according to Shell's US CEO.

The entire debate will then be radically refocused. It is up to us enviros to get our heads out of the sand, and educate the public and be ready to push for huge investments in mass transit, both locally and federally.

]]> Comment #4 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:55:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/4 I'm with the Sierra club

"...all those new roads -- roads that will just fill up, as roads do."

Joe Blow thinks that more roads will mean less congestion. Counter intuitive as it sounds, more roads quickly lead to the same levels of congestion no matter how many roads you build. People find ways not to drive when congestion gets bad enough and a steady state of congestion ensues, as seen in New York City.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> I'm with the Sierra club

"...all those new roads -- roads that will just fill up, as roads do."

Joe Blow thinks that more roads will mean less congestion. Counter intuitive as it sounds, more roads quickly lead to the same levels of congestion no matter how many roads you build. People find ways not to drive when congestion gets bad enough and a steady state of congestion ensues, as seen in New York City.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #5 by Michelle Parker http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:28:06 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/5 If they build it, the bikes will come

Just think, the sooner Peak Oil hits, the sooner all those miles and miles of fresh pavement will become great bike paths!

]]> If they build it, the bikes will come

Just think, the sooner Peak Oil hits, the sooner all those miles and miles of fresh pavement will become great bike paths!

]]> Comment #6 by Sam Wells http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:50:30 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/6 Wishcasting

That's called "wish-casting" my friend.  You expect peak oil so it is a final thing in your mind, 2011.  But you forget we have a duty to promote regional mobility.  Obviously, not all people are as blessed as you to be able to bicycle ... some can even barely walk.  That's rather insensitive in my book.

I will admit one can never build our way out of congestion.  Sure, new roads fill up as soon as they are opened but you added capacity to the system.  The old hippie motto "if you don't build it they won't come" as to highways and transit is simply wrong, wrong, wrong.  

But I agree, bundling the project with as a single, huge combined package was a huge mistake.    People are too smart for that.  Thank goodness, too.

Onward through the fog

]]> Wishcasting

That's called "wish-casting" my friend.  You expect peak oil so it is a final thing in your mind, 2011.  But you forget we have a duty to promote regional mobility.  Obviously, not all people are as blessed as you to be able to bicycle ... some can even barely walk.  That's rather insensitive in my book.

I will admit one can never build our way out of congestion.  Sure, new roads fill up as soon as they are opened but you added capacity to the system.  The old hippie motto "if you don't build it they won't come" as to highways and transit is simply wrong, wrong, wrong.  

But I agree, bundling the project with as a single, huge combined package was a huge mistake.    People are too smart for that.  Thank goodness, too.

Onward through the fog

]]> Comment #7 by racc http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:30:43 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/7 Automobiles aren't the Most Used Form of Transport

John:

Automobiles are not by far the most used "transportation system" in the world. More people bicycle, walk and use public transit than will ever be able to drive. There are over 6 billion people on the planet and around 800 million automobiles. There is simply not enough steel, plastic and oil on this planet for everyone to drive.

We have to stop thinking we in North America are the center of the world and we somehow are entitled to drive consuming resources that others in the world and future generations will require to have a good standard of living.

Everyone, liberal and conservative refers public transit as transit. I have never seen a conservative try and refer to the automobile as transit.

Richard

]]> Automobiles aren't the Most Used Form of Transport

John:

Automobiles are not by far the most used "transportation system" in the world. More people bicycle, walk and use public transit than will ever be able to drive. There are over 6 billion people on the planet and around 800 million automobiles. There is simply not enough steel, plastic and oil on this planet for everyone to drive.

We have to stop thinking we in North America are the center of the world and we somehow are entitled to drive consuming resources that others in the world and future generations will require to have a good standard of living.

Everyone, liberal and conservative refers public transit as transit. I have never seen a conservative try and refer to the automobile as transit.

Richard

]]> Comment #8 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Tue, 02 Oct 2007 08:31:04 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/8 Tell It To The AAA !

Automobiles are not by far the most used "transportation system" in the world.

Yes, but they are in Seattle.   And yes, a car plus a road network is a "system".   It is the most flexible, the best loved (when done right), more economically efficient way to have multi-nodal transportation across areas in the range of 50 miles and allow for the efficiencies, economies and benefits of sprawl.

I have never seen a conservative try and refer to the automobile as transit.

I do it all the time.

John Bailo
Sutext:

]]> Tell It To The AAA !

Automobiles are not by far the most used "transportation system" in the world.

Yes, but they are in Seattle.   And yes, a car plus a road network is a "system".   It is the most flexible, the best loved (when done right), more economically efficient way to have multi-nodal transportation across areas in the range of 50 miles and allow for the efficiencies, economies and benefits of sprawl.

I have never seen a conservative try and refer to the automobile as transit.

I do it all the time.

John Bailo
Sutext:

]]> Comment #9 by Michelle Parker http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:39:40 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/9 Wishcasting (a.k.a. "Positive Thinking")

Sam,

Your point is well taken. In fact, when I wrote my comment about bikes (with a hat tip to Kevin Costner's movie, Field of Dreams), I was also thinking about my mother, who is currently in a wheelchair. She would love to have miles and miles of smooth pavement to wheel around on.  

One good bike-transportation solution to have, when one needs or prefers someone else to do the pedaling, is a cycle rickshaw.  I've ridden in one, in Singapore, and highly recommend it.

]]> Wishcasting (a.k.a. "Positive Thinking")

Sam,

Your point is well taken. In fact, when I wrote my comment about bikes (with a hat tip to Kevin Costner's movie, Field of Dreams), I was also thinking about my mother, who is currently in a wheelchair. She would love to have miles and miles of smooth pavement to wheel around on.  

One good bike-transportation solution to have, when one needs or prefers someone else to do the pedaling, is a cycle rickshaw.  I've ridden in one, in Singapore, and highly recommend it.

]]> Comment #10 by eriqa http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Wed, 03 Oct 2007 00:29:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/10 transit

According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: tran·sit  

1 a : an act, process, or instance of passing through or over : PASSAGE b : CHANGE, TRANSITION c (1) : conveyance of persons or things from one place to another (2) : usually local transportation especially of people by public conveyance; also : vehicles or a system engaged in such transportation.

]]> transit

According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:

Main Entry: tran·sit  

1 a : an act, process, or instance of passing through or over : PASSAGE b : CHANGE, TRANSITION c (1) : conveyance of persons or things from one place to another (2) : usually local transportation especially of people by public conveyance; also : vehicles or a system engaged in such transportation.

]]> Comment #11 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:33:43 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/11 Plan's Originator Shuns It


Oh, btw, not that Grist would ever tell anyone, but the Seattle Times just printed an interview in which a distraught Ron Sims, the King County Executive, who promoted Light Rail for the last 6 years, said that he was "forced into" supporting it and thinks that its completely wrong from the ground up!

Read it and Weep Libs:

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/009341.html

John Bailo
Sutext:


]]> Plan's Originator Shuns It


Oh, btw, not that Grist would ever tell anyone, but the Seattle Times just printed an interview in which a distraught Ron Sims, the King County Executive, who promoted Light Rail for the last 6 years, said that he was "forced into" supporting it and thinks that its completely wrong from the ground up!

Read it and Weep Libs:

http://soundpolitics.com/archives/009341.html

John Bailo
Sutext:


]]> Comment #12 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:36:19 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/12 Good definition of a car


Great definition of car.

Conveyance of persons or things from one place to another...yep, my 1991 Grand Prix does that great.

Local transporation: sure, it's right outside my apartment door.

Public: Yeah, all my neighbors can see it and I certainly don't drive in private but take it on "public" roadways paid for by "the public".

John Bailo
Sutext:



]]> Good definition of a car


Great definition of car.

Conveyance of persons or things from one place to another...yep, my 1991 Grand Prix does that great.

Local transporation: sure, it's right outside my apartment door.

Public: Yeah, all my neighbors can see it and I certainly don't drive in private but take it on "public" roadways paid for by "the public".

John Bailo
Sutext:



]]> Comment #13 by PolluteLessDotCom http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:40:18 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/13 John is right

Even if you do not like it:

In the USA the automobile is considered transit and transportation.

Just because you do not like the way it is used does not mean it is not covered by a definition. Trying to find ways to exclude the automobile from a definition is missing the point. The automobile is popular and used by millions because it is convenient, belongs to you, gives you freedom to drive anywhere anytime, and may give you your dose of adrenaline (depending on your needs for compensating for other shortcomings). There are VERY GOOD REASONS for why fossil fuels and automobiles are popular. Not sustainable, but explainable. Excluding the automobile from the definition makes no difference. Making it easier to drive by car results in no change - just more cars.

And, yes, WORLDWIDE the automobile has little meaning, although I fear that the increased uses coming in the next decade will have tremendous impact.

If you seed roads you will harvest traffic. Without exception as far as I know.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

]]> John is right

Even if you do not like it:

In the USA the automobile is considered transit and transportation.

Just because you do not like the way it is used does not mean it is not covered by a definition. Trying to find ways to exclude the automobile from a definition is missing the point. The automobile is popular and used by millions because it is convenient, belongs to you, gives you freedom to drive anywhere anytime, and may give you your dose of adrenaline (depending on your needs for compensating for other shortcomings). There are VERY GOOD REASONS for why fossil fuels and automobiles are popular. Not sustainable, but explainable. Excluding the automobile from the definition makes no difference. Making it easier to drive by car results in no change - just more cars.

And, yes, WORLDWIDE the automobile has little meaning, although I fear that the increased uses coming in the next decade will have tremendous impact.

If you seed roads you will harvest traffic. Without exception as far as I know.

Karsten
http://www.polluteless.com

]]> Comment #14 by nedruod http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/ Fri, 05 Oct 2007 10:51:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/roads-with-transit-no-thanks/14 Forgot one John

Seems you forgot your also using the public's air supply, destroying it.  Lucky for you, you don't have to pay for it, or you might not like your car so much.

It's a nice feeling to disrespect our shared planet.  Hey better yet, how about we bottle up all your exhaust and pump it through your house?  We can even be generous and dilute it based upon the amount of "air space" above your property.

I suspect you wouldn't approve of that at all, but it's okay as long as you have billions of miles to spread that pollution out over.  I hope no one else does the same though or we'll all be screwed.  That's unlikely though, right?

]]> Forgot one John

Seems you forgot your also using the public's air supply, destroying it.  Lucky for you, you don't have to pay for it, or you might not like your car so much.

It's a nice feeling to disrespect our shared planet.  Hey better yet, how about we bottle up all your exhaust and pump it through your house?  We can even be generous and dilute it based upon the amount of "air space" above your property.

I suspect you wouldn't approve of that at all, but it's okay as long as you have billions of miles to spread that pollution out over.  I hope no one else does the same though or we'll all be screwed.  That's unlikely though, right?

]]>