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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The economy is an ecosystem]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:35:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>How do we know how much is enough?</strong></p><p>I'm wondering what is driving the growth in the economic system as you describe it. Would it be the outer circle of consumer goods and services? Or could it be at a community level where municipalities are buying green power and transit? Both?</p><p>
The reason I make the distinction is that I see consumer-driven society as a dead-end (possibly literally). That is, where does this insane appetite for McMansions and $2000 televisions come from? It seems not only unhealthy to me, but pathological. Unless we can break that cycle of addiction to (luxury) consumer goods I don't see how we can open people's minds to the possibilities inherent in the personal growth that accompanies democractic decision-making, and participating in the arts and nature.</p><p>
On the other hand, if individual passive consumers could be transformed into active citizens who organize for a local green manufacturing economy, then I think we would have a chance of designing a system for a reasonable and equitable distribution of goods that wouldn't endanger the earth. In other words, how do we get to the society that favors quality over quantity?</p>
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				<p><strong>How do we know how much is enough?</strong></p><p>I'm wondering what is driving the growth in the economic system as you describe it. Would it be the outer circle of consumer goods and services? Or could it be at a community level where municipalities are buying green power and transit? Both?</p><p>
The reason I make the distinction is that I see consumer-driven society as a dead-end (possibly literally). That is, where does this insane appetite for McMansions and $2000 televisions come from? It seems not only unhealthy to me, but pathological. Unless we can break that cycle of addiction to (luxury) consumer goods I don't see how we can open people's minds to the possibilities inherent in the personal growth that accompanies democractic decision-making, and participating in the arts and nature.</p><p>
On the other hand, if individual passive consumers could be transformed into active citizens who organize for a local green manufacturing economy, then I think we would have a chance of designing a system for a reasonable and equitable distribution of goods that wouldn't endanger the earth. In other words, how do we get to the society that favors quality over quantity?</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:49:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ideally, mandate recycling, restrict land use...</strong></p><p>Basically, if you can't pull any more minerals, oil, etc., out of the ground, and if you can't convert anymore wildlife areas/farmland into suburbs, and everything has to be able to be completely recyclable, then there won't be the materials for more. &nbsp;Now, that would obviously be quite the challenge in today's culture.</p><p>
Another avenue -- utopian, but an avenue -- is to significantly increase tax levels, and funnel most wealth into social investments, not private ones -- including municipal utilities, municipal housing, transit, health care, even some form of keeping a certain amount of agricultural land working and sustainable outside the municipality. &nbsp;I dare not call this a socialist alternative, as toxic as that might sound to an American audience, so I'll call it a municipal-based economy &nbsp;-- based on a city or town. &nbsp;Again, a huge culture shift.</p><p>
Finally, since you mentioned participation, mandating or at least encouraging employee-ownership-and-control would increase participation levels an order of magnitude. Combined with municipal-based economics, restrictions on land use and mandated recycling, could add up to an economy that would have to concentrate more on quality than quantity. &nbsp;</p><p>
Or maybe I should call it ecotopia?</p>
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				<p><strong>Ideally, mandate recycling, restrict land use...</strong></p><p>Basically, if you can't pull any more minerals, oil, etc., out of the ground, and if you can't convert anymore wildlife areas/farmland into suburbs, and everything has to be able to be completely recyclable, then there won't be the materials for more. &nbsp;Now, that would obviously be quite the challenge in today's culture.</p><p>
Another avenue -- utopian, but an avenue -- is to significantly increase tax levels, and funnel most wealth into social investments, not private ones -- including municipal utilities, municipal housing, transit, health care, even some form of keeping a certain amount of agricultural land working and sustainable outside the municipality. &nbsp;I dare not call this a socialist alternative, as toxic as that might sound to an American audience, so I'll call it a municipal-based economy &nbsp;-- based on a city or town. &nbsp;Again, a huge culture shift.</p><p>
Finally, since you mentioned participation, mandating or at least encouraging employee-ownership-and-control would increase participation levels an order of magnitude. Combined with municipal-based economics, restrictions on land use and mandated recycling, could add up to an economy that would have to concentrate more on quality than quantity. &nbsp;</p><p>
Or maybe I should call it ecotopia?</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by gmobus</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:05:37 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>A distinct difference between economy and ecology<p>I appreciate the effort to analogize the economy as an ecology since the latter is, in the Gaia theory anyway, balanced in the long run with respect to energy and material flows.<p>
But I think Colin raises a good point that needs to be considered. One major difference between the economy of humans and the ecology of Gaia is that in the latter the drive is from the lowest trophic layer. That is, what pumps energy into the system is the photosynthetic activities of plants and some bacteria. The higher trophic levels then dissipate the stored energy and the heat eventually re-radiates to space. <p>
Animals do not demand food so much as simply consume what is present and when their numbers increase beyond the carrying capacity they die off or fail to reproduce to compensate. Hence the balance.<p>
Humans do demand from above. They do want more and find ways to reroute energy flows, or in the case of fossil fuels to tap into the bank as it were, to serve their purposes. They invent the new ways to consume and expropriate energy production systems to provide what they want. There is no balance.<p>
Except, perhaps in the long run. With the peaking of oil and gas production the energy bonanza is over and I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to replace it with alternative energy production systems. Then we will begin to see the similarities between the economy and the ecosystem. But we will also see the similarities between humans and all other animals faced with energy restrictions. That won't be a rebuilding of the economy. It will be what Richard Heinberg calls 'powering down' at best and chaos at worst. The latter seems like a high probability scenario to me in light of humanity, at the same time it is running on less gas, will have to cope with and adapt to the effects of climate change.<p>
Regarding the production of energy: I loved Jon's description of the multi-tiered production system. In some of the work that I am doing at UWT (see my profile) I am building models of what I call the energy production sustainability criterion. Stated simply it says that any form of alternative energy production equipment, or what I call energy conversion capital, must produce sufficient energy to not only feed free energy to the end consumers, but must also feed back into its own maintenance and 'reproduction' cycle. That latter contribution may be minuscule in real-time, but it must cumulatively, over the working life of the unit, provide enough power to produce the next generation of conversion capital. And that includes enough power to produce the next generation of manufacturing plant and machine tools, etc. It remains to be seen that clean energy systems like photovoltaics and wind turbines will actually meet this long-range sustainability criterion. &nbsp;<p>
George<br>
<a href="http://www.questioneverything.typepad.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.questioneverything.typepad.com<br>


<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>A distinct difference between economy and ecology<p>I appreciate the effort to analogize the economy as an ecology since the latter is, in the Gaia theory anyway, balanced in the long run with respect to energy and material flows.<p>
But I think Colin raises a good point that needs to be considered. One major difference between the economy of humans and the ecology of Gaia is that in the latter the drive is from the lowest trophic layer. That is, what pumps energy into the system is the photosynthetic activities of plants and some bacteria. The higher trophic levels then dissipate the stored energy and the heat eventually re-radiates to space. <p>
Animals do not demand food so much as simply consume what is present and when their numbers increase beyond the carrying capacity they die off or fail to reproduce to compensate. Hence the balance.<p>
Humans do demand from above. They do want more and find ways to reroute energy flows, or in the case of fossil fuels to tap into the bank as it were, to serve their purposes. They invent the new ways to consume and expropriate energy production systems to provide what they want. There is no balance.<p>
Except, perhaps in the long run. With the peaking of oil and gas production the energy bonanza is over and I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to replace it with alternative energy production systems. Then we will begin to see the similarities between the economy and the ecosystem. But we will also see the similarities between humans and all other animals faced with energy restrictions. That won't be a rebuilding of the economy. It will be what Richard Heinberg calls 'powering down' at best and chaos at worst. The latter seems like a high probability scenario to me in light of humanity, at the same time it is running on less gas, will have to cope with and adapt to the effects of climate change.<p>
Regarding the production of energy: I loved Jon's description of the multi-tiered production system. In some of the work that I am doing at UWT (see my profile) I am building models of what I call the energy production sustainability criterion. Stated simply it says that any form of alternative energy production equipment, or what I call energy conversion capital, must produce sufficient energy to not only feed free energy to the end consumers, but must also feed back into its own maintenance and 'reproduction' cycle. That latter contribution may be minuscule in real-time, but it must cumulatively, over the working life of the unit, provide enough power to produce the next generation of conversion capital. And that includes enough power to produce the next generation of manufacturing plant and machine tools, etc. It remains to be seen that clean energy systems like photovoltaics and wind turbines will actually meet this long-range sustainability criterion. &nbsp;<p>
George<br>
<a href="http://www.questioneverything.typepad.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.questioneverything.typepad.com<br>


<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:47:11 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Models rule!<p>George --<p>
I've wanted to create computer models of my ideas for a while now (<a href="http://globalmakeover.com/sites/economicreconstruction.com/static/JonRynn/ProductionSystem.html" rel="nofollow">here's a link to an SVG-based version of a start of a model, but you need Adobe's SVG add-in), and it sounds like you are moving in a similar direction, if I may be so bold. &nbsp;I'd like to hear more about your work as you move forward (maybe a guest blog post?)<p>
Back to reality, however, I was amazed that William Catton's 1980 book, "Overshoot", is still very relevant to today's problems. &nbsp;This form of human civilization will certainly have to change, or it will experience overshoot and be changed. &nbsp;However, I think that it is important to try to create positive "visions", or better yet, "models", of what a different civilization would look like, no matter how <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/30/184324/535" rel="nofollow">utopian the effort might seem now. &nbsp;I think that Heinberg is sometimes too ready to give up on cities; he seems to think we will go back to villages and small towns, but I think that if we were to tackle our problems logically right now, cities would be a central part of the solution (I attempted sketch a city-centered solution <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=74" rel="nofollow">here)<br>
</br></a></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Models rule!<p>George --<p>
I've wanted to create computer models of my ideas for a while now (<a href="http://globalmakeover.com/sites/economicreconstruction.com/static/JonRynn/ProductionSystem.html" rel="nofollow">here's a link to an SVG-based version of a start of a model, but you need Adobe's SVG add-in), and it sounds like you are moving in a similar direction, if I may be so bold. &nbsp;I'd like to hear more about your work as you move forward (maybe a guest blog post?)<p>
Back to reality, however, I was amazed that William Catton's 1980 book, "Overshoot", is still very relevant to today's problems. &nbsp;This form of human civilization will certainly have to change, or it will experience overshoot and be changed. &nbsp;However, I think that it is important to try to create positive "visions", or better yet, "models", of what a different civilization would look like, no matter how <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/30/184324/535" rel="nofollow">utopian the effort might seem now. &nbsp;I think that Heinberg is sometimes too ready to give up on cities; he seems to think we will go back to villages and small towns, but I think that if we were to tackle our problems logically right now, cities would be a central part of the solution (I attempted sketch a city-centered solution <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=74" rel="nofollow">here)<br>
</br></a></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by stevenearlsalmony</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:27:31 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Dear George Mobus<p>Keep going.<p>
Steven Earl Salmony<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/</a></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Dear George Mobus<p>Keep going.<p>
Steven Earl Salmony<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/</a></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by stevenearlsalmony</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:42:16 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Dear John Rynn<p>Please consider that the global human economy is an artificially designed, momentary, manmade construction, one that appears to be rapidly approaching a point in human history when endless economic growth will become patently unsustainable on the surface of a planetary home the size of ours. To the extent modifications in unbridled economic globalization are chosen by the managers of the human economy that adopt the workings of the sustainable economy of God's good Earth, then it will become sustainable, I suppose.<p>
Steven Earl Salmony, Ph.D., M.P.A.<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/</a></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Dear John Rynn<p>Please consider that the global human economy is an artificially designed, momentary, manmade construction, one that appears to be rapidly approaching a point in human history when endless economic growth will become patently unsustainable on the surface of a planetary home the size of ours. To the extent modifications in unbridled economic globalization are chosen by the managers of the human economy that adopt the workings of the sustainable economy of God's good Earth, then it will become sustainable, I suppose.<p>
Steven Earl Salmony, Ph.D., M.P.A.<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/</a></br></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:12:01 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/rebuild-the-economy-by-building-green-industries/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Steve --</strong></p><p>Of course our civilization is artificial, humans evolved as tool-makers, changing now into machine-makers. &nbsp;I think that humans are actually much better at designing and making tools and machinery than they are at managing resources, which we have botched horribly. &nbsp;So if a civilization was constructed -- and it will take a massive job of construction -- that was sustainable, we would have to have strict rules, even taboos, against destroying our ecosystems -- sort of like the law in Carmel, California that you can't cut down any trees, spread to the whole world. &nbsp;No more mining, moratoria on fishing -- so that human creativity could be directed toward the arts, entertainment, electronics, science, sustainable engineering -- and away from possessing more and more. &nbsp;I have no idea if that is a psychological leap that people could make, perhaps you have more experience with that than I.</p>
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				<p><strong>Steve --</strong></p><p>Of course our civilization is artificial, humans evolved as tool-makers, changing now into machine-makers. &nbsp;I think that humans are actually much better at designing and making tools and machinery than they are at managing resources, which we have botched horribly. &nbsp;So if a civilization was constructed -- and it will take a massive job of construction -- that was sustainable, we would have to have strict rules, even taboos, against destroying our ecosystems -- sort of like the law in Carmel, California that you can't cut down any trees, spread to the whole world. &nbsp;No more mining, moratoria on fishing -- so that human creativity could be directed toward the arts, entertainment, electronics, science, sustainable engineering -- and away from possessing more and more. &nbsp;I have no idea if that is a psychological leap that people could make, perhaps you have more experience with that than I.</p>
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