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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Ramblings for Fathers Day]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by John Fish Kurmann</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:45:20 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Not to...<p>...discourage you from trying to be the kind of person you want your kids to look up to, Dave, but I think the evidence is clear that you're assuming you can have more lasting effect on the kind of people your children turn out to be than you actually will. Oh, your behavior toward and in front of them will certainly have strong effects on your relationships with your sons and on intrafamily dynamics, but it will apparently have little if any discernible lasting effect on their outside-the-home personalities. <p>
Judith Rich Harris, the foremost person in recent times to point this out publicly, has written 2 books explaining the evidence, The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do--Parents Matter Less Than You Think and Peers Matter More and No Two Alike: Human Nature and Human Individuality. Her website is <a href="http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/" rel="nofollow">here and one of her short essays explaining her ideas is <a href="http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2222614.ece" rel="nofollow">here.<p>
All of which is not to say that you have no way to affect the outside-the-home personalities of your sons, just that your ability to affect them is less direct, through the decisions you make that will help determine who their peers will be during childhood.

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith</p></p></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Not to...<p>...discourage you from trying to be the kind of person you want your kids to look up to, Dave, but I think the evidence is clear that you're assuming you can have more lasting effect on the kind of people your children turn out to be than you actually will. Oh, your behavior toward and in front of them will certainly have strong effects on your relationships with your sons and on intrafamily dynamics, but it will apparently have little if any discernible lasting effect on their outside-the-home personalities. <p>
Judith Rich Harris, the foremost person in recent times to point this out publicly, has written 2 books explaining the evidence, The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do--Parents Matter Less Than You Think and Peers Matter More and No Two Alike: Human Nature and Human Individuality. Her website is <a href="http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/" rel="nofollow">here and one of her short essays explaining her ideas is <a href="http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2222614.ece" rel="nofollow">here.<p>
All of which is not to say that you have no way to affect the outside-the-home personalities of your sons, just that your ability to affect them is less direct, through the decisions you make that will help determine who their peers will be during childhood.

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith</p></p></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Steven T</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:00:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Makes sense in a perfectionist kind of way</strong></p><p>Dave, your thoughts ring true. &nbsp;They also have an edge of perfectionism -- which is inevitably doomed to many disappointments, given that we all walk into parenthood with "baggage."</p><p>
So a friendly amendment? &nbsp;If our kids learn the most from our actions rather than our words, then we might tone down the rhetoric and become better -- much better -- at standing back and observing our own behavior.</p><p>
If we see things we don't like, it isn't easy to change. &nbsp;A big reason why is because we don't move through life in isolation. &nbsp;We are part of a family system whose basic dynamics may reach back generations. &nbsp;</p><p>
If, for example, our family system suffers from widespread and largely untreated alcoholism, that won't be an easy issue for an individual family member to deal with. &nbsp;Indeed, the individual may not transcend his or her own addictive tendencies without reaching for support outside that family system. &nbsp;Renegotiating the power structure in a dysfunctional family system can be particularly difficult when you have kids.</p><p>
Children are mirrors into our souls. &nbsp;In their own way they are like Zen masters, because they place before us every day new challenges to the way we have lived. &nbsp;Try as hard as we might, we as parents will never quite "get it right." &nbsp;That's because we are human. &nbsp;But if we are able to model empathy, perhaps our children will end up having empathy for us, and we can laugh together at the absurdities of life.</p>
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				<p><strong>Makes sense in a perfectionist kind of way</strong></p><p>Dave, your thoughts ring true. &nbsp;They also have an edge of perfectionism -- which is inevitably doomed to many disappointments, given that we all walk into parenthood with "baggage."</p><p>
So a friendly amendment? &nbsp;If our kids learn the most from our actions rather than our words, then we might tone down the rhetoric and become better -- much better -- at standing back and observing our own behavior.</p><p>
If we see things we don't like, it isn't easy to change. &nbsp;A big reason why is because we don't move through life in isolation. &nbsp;We are part of a family system whose basic dynamics may reach back generations. &nbsp;</p><p>
If, for example, our family system suffers from widespread and largely untreated alcoholism, that won't be an easy issue for an individual family member to deal with. &nbsp;Indeed, the individual may not transcend his or her own addictive tendencies without reaching for support outside that family system. &nbsp;Renegotiating the power structure in a dysfunctional family system can be particularly difficult when you have kids.</p><p>
Children are mirrors into our souls. &nbsp;In their own way they are like Zen masters, because they place before us every day new challenges to the way we have lived. &nbsp;Try as hard as we might, we as parents will never quite "get it right." &nbsp;That's because we are human. &nbsp;But if we are able to model empathy, perhaps our children will end up having empathy for us, and we can laugh together at the absurdities of life.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by kmp</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:46:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Powerful</strong></p><p>David, that was beautifully put. &nbsp;Obama may be eloquent, but you are heartfelt, and generous to share a snapshot of your family life with us.</p><p>
While I can see the logic in the theory that John Fish Kurman presents, that you cannot control who your children turn out to be (my own siblings are a case in point) I also agree wholeheartedly with you that the best, and in fact, only, real gift you give your children is to be the best possible version of yourself, day after day.</p><p>
Back in January I took care of a friend's three-and-a-half year old daughter for a month, while my friend was having, and recuperating from, abdominal surgery. &nbsp;Even though I would generally consider myself a "good person," I can't tell you how many times I had to check a typical behavior, or re-examine a behavior, once viewed through the lens of this precocious and very intelligent little girl. &nbsp;I would tell her that she shouldn't run the water while she brushes her teeth, that it is wasteful, and she would say "But you do." &nbsp;And I would think, "I do??" &nbsp;And I would have to answer "Well, I will stop doing that then." I taught her not to talk with her mouth full of food, and now if I ask her a question and she is still chewing she'll point insistently to her mouth and give me a look of great disdain. </p><p>
Even in such a short time as a month, I found myself refining to a better, more tolerant and more understanding person, even with the background of exhaustion (5:30 am is NOT my normal wake up time!), worry over my friend's health, and stress in trying to do my job at night and during the all too infrequent naps.</p><p>
The other day, I was talking to my friend on the phone, when my little (now 4 year-old) charge got on the phone to tell me about her day in school. &nbsp;When she was done, she said "I love you, Big K" (my nickname, to distinguish from her 3 year-old friend Kayla). &nbsp;It should be ridiculous, the rush of pride I felt at hearing those words; it should be, but it isn't. &nbsp;I want to continue to be worthy of her love, to be the best possible person I can be, in her eyes and in mine. &nbsp;And not so she will grow up to be just like me; so she will grow up understanding the joy of being the best possible person she can be. </p>
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				<p><strong>Powerful</strong></p><p>David, that was beautifully put. &nbsp;Obama may be eloquent, but you are heartfelt, and generous to share a snapshot of your family life with us.</p><p>
While I can see the logic in the theory that John Fish Kurman presents, that you cannot control who your children turn out to be (my own siblings are a case in point) I also agree wholeheartedly with you that the best, and in fact, only, real gift you give your children is to be the best possible version of yourself, day after day.</p><p>
Back in January I took care of a friend's three-and-a-half year old daughter for a month, while my friend was having, and recuperating from, abdominal surgery. &nbsp;Even though I would generally consider myself a "good person," I can't tell you how many times I had to check a typical behavior, or re-examine a behavior, once viewed through the lens of this precocious and very intelligent little girl. &nbsp;I would tell her that she shouldn't run the water while she brushes her teeth, that it is wasteful, and she would say "But you do." &nbsp;And I would think, "I do??" &nbsp;And I would have to answer "Well, I will stop doing that then." I taught her not to talk with her mouth full of food, and now if I ask her a question and she is still chewing she'll point insistently to her mouth and give me a look of great disdain. </p><p>
Even in such a short time as a month, I found myself refining to a better, more tolerant and more understanding person, even with the background of exhaustion (5:30 am is NOT my normal wake up time!), worry over my friend's health, and stress in trying to do my job at night and during the all too infrequent naps.</p><p>
The other day, I was talking to my friend on the phone, when my little (now 4 year-old) charge got on the phone to tell me about her day in school. &nbsp;When she was done, she said "I love you, Big K" (my nickname, to distinguish from her 3 year-old friend Kayla). &nbsp;It should be ridiculous, the rush of pride I felt at hearing those words; it should be, but it isn't. &nbsp;I want to continue to be worthy of her love, to be the best possible person I can be, in her eyes and in mine. &nbsp;And not so she will grow up to be just like me; so she will grow up understanding the joy of being the best possible person she can be. </p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:01:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Self loathing</strong></p><p>"I'd become resigned to being a person I didn't much like. I berated myself, often loathed myself, but I didn't have much faith in my ability to be a better person."</p><p>
It's a pyramid. &nbsp;Built stone by stone. &nbsp;Good job exposing it DR! &nbsp;It just maybe the biggest problem, underlying all other problems. &nbsp;On target as usual.<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Self loathing</strong></p><p>"I'd become resigned to being a person I didn't much like. I berated myself, often loathed myself, but I didn't have much faith in my ability to be a better person."</p><p>
It's a pyramid. &nbsp;Built stone by stone. &nbsp;Good job exposing it DR! &nbsp;It just maybe the biggest problem, underlying all other problems. &nbsp;On target as usual.<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:25:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Lovely, DR</strong></p><p>That is a beautiful message. &nbsp;I hope you had a good Fathers' Day.</p><p>
Good words from Barack and Kaela, too! &nbsp;Kaela, it is for such as you that the proverb, "A friend in need is a friend indeed," has been passed down.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Lovely, DR</strong></p><p>That is a beautiful message. &nbsp;I hope you had a good Fathers' Day.</p><p>
Good words from Barack and Kaela, too! &nbsp;Kaela, it is for such as you that the proverb, "A friend in need is a friend indeed," has been passed down.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:33:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Yep</strong></p><p>You got that right Canis!</p><p>
I forgot one thing, if you encourage kids to remove their own splinters it suddenly doesn't hurt. &nbsp;It's like majic. &nbsp;</p><p>
You just have to love it how DR's story directly illustrates how we all need to give ourselves a break from our own harsh judgement of ourselves, in order to give that same break to others, especially those we love and care for. &nbsp;Aum, that's zen.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Yep</strong></p><p>You got that right Canis!</p><p>
I forgot one thing, if you encourage kids to remove their own splinters it suddenly doesn't hurt. &nbsp;It's like majic. &nbsp;</p><p>
You just have to love it how DR's story directly illustrates how we all need to give ourselves a break from our own harsh judgement of ourselves, in order to give that same break to others, especially those we love and care for. &nbsp;Aum, that's zen.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:46:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ramblings-for-fathers-day/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Right, Amazing.</strong></p><p>And the cautions of JFK and Steven are important. &nbsp;One wonders what new lessons about fatherhood DR will learn, once his sons are out of the house most of the day, and learning entirely new things, altogether uncontrollable by his parents, and ultimately preferring the company of others to that of their parents.</p><p>
I might add, totally unrelated to anything: DR is indeed a fuzzface, but the nape of his neck is adorable.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Right, Amazing.</strong></p><p>And the cautions of JFK and Steven are important. &nbsp;One wonders what new lessons about fatherhood DR will learn, once his sons are out of the house most of the day, and learning entirely new things, altogether uncontrollable by his parents, and ultimately preferring the company of others to that of their parents.</p><p>
I might add, totally unrelated to anything: DR is indeed a fuzzface, but the nape of his neck is adorable.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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