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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for When it comes to green products, who&#8217;s zoomin&#8217; who?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Japhet</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:27:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>I am a Chump<p>I have for years been buying, blindly that is, all of the eco friendly food, cleaners, deodorant (which my bestest pals from college will tell you doesn't really work--its kind of like sticking a bar of soap under each arm) and snacks that I could find. I have since "learned some lessons" and now have narrowed my purchasing habits to a select few of brands. &nbsp;This is not to say that I am ready and willing to be "chumpified" as is so if anyone out there has any good dirt on the following "organic" companies please holla now. <p>
Seventh Generation -- based in VT (my home state) so I eagerly support their work. Their stuff does actually work but am skeptical of their ingriedients. <p>
Garden of Eatin' -- just heard that Kraft or someone bought them out and are no longer on their own. <p>
Patagonia -- no question marks with this company. Right? <p>
Puma -- found out they belong to a signifcant group of corporations who formed a fair-trade coalition (after the Nike sweatshop explosion). <p>
For a really interesting breakdown of organic food companies and who owns who checkout:<br>
<a href="http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/corporate-ownership.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/corporate-ownership.html<br>
&nbsp;</br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I am a Chump<p>I have for years been buying, blindly that is, all of the eco friendly food, cleaners, deodorant (which my bestest pals from college will tell you doesn't really work--its kind of like sticking a bar of soap under each arm) and snacks that I could find. I have since "learned some lessons" and now have narrowed my purchasing habits to a select few of brands. &nbsp;This is not to say that I am ready and willing to be "chumpified" as is so if anyone out there has any good dirt on the following "organic" companies please holla now. <p>
Seventh Generation -- based in VT (my home state) so I eagerly support their work. Their stuff does actually work but am skeptical of their ingriedients. <p>
Garden of Eatin' -- just heard that Kraft or someone bought them out and are no longer on their own. <p>
Patagonia -- no question marks with this company. Right? <p>
Puma -- found out they belong to a signifcant group of corporations who formed a fair-trade coalition (after the Nike sweatshop explosion). <p>
For a really interesting breakdown of organic food companies and who owns who checkout:<br>
<a href="http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/corporate-ownership.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/corporate-ownership.html<br>
&nbsp;</br></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Bobbi Katsanis</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:53:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>I am not a chump anymore. I don't think.</strong></p><p>For cleaning products, as our dear Umbra has indicated, if you've got a gallon jug of white vinegar and a 4-pound box of baking soda, you can clean anything. You can also open a drain: one cup baking soda, followed by one cup vinegar (bubbles! woo-hoo!) followed by boiling water. For more cleaning recipes, look for Epstein &amp; Klein's Substituting Ingredients (The Globe Pequot Press). May be out of print; buy used!</p><p>
For food, buy local buy local buy local. Learn to cook. Better yet, learn to garden. Learn to love your farmer's market. If organic food travels more than 25 miles from cropland to table, the transportation pollution outweighs the pesticide pollution on conventionally grown.</p><p>
You can also make your own cosmetics with locally grown inexpensive ingredients (people who buy $10 organic herbal shampoo are REALLY chumps--it's mostly water, which the shampoo companies are allowed to count as an "organic" ingredient). Recipes in Jeanne Rose's Herbal Body Book. </p><p>
We CAN be enviros without being chumps. Si se puede!</p>
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				<p><strong>I am not a chump anymore. I don't think.</strong></p><p>For cleaning products, as our dear Umbra has indicated, if you've got a gallon jug of white vinegar and a 4-pound box of baking soda, you can clean anything. You can also open a drain: one cup baking soda, followed by one cup vinegar (bubbles! woo-hoo!) followed by boiling water. For more cleaning recipes, look for Epstein &amp; Klein's Substituting Ingredients (The Globe Pequot Press). May be out of print; buy used!</p><p>
For food, buy local buy local buy local. Learn to cook. Better yet, learn to garden. Learn to love your farmer's market. If organic food travels more than 25 miles from cropland to table, the transportation pollution outweighs the pesticide pollution on conventionally grown.</p><p>
You can also make your own cosmetics with locally grown inexpensive ingredients (people who buy $10 organic herbal shampoo are REALLY chumps--it's mostly water, which the shampoo companies are allowed to count as an "organic" ingredient). Recipes in Jeanne Rose's Herbal Body Book. </p><p>
We CAN be enviros without being chumps. Si se puede!</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by lisab</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:47:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Eco chump? Huh?</strong></p><p>You write:<br>
If you pay extra for coffee beans that grew in the shade of trees providing endangered-species habitat, you might be an eco-chump.</p><p>
Umm... make fun if you want, but I think if more people were buying stuff like organic, shade grown coffee, the world would be a better place. &nbsp;</p><p>
If you don't agree, why the heck are you writing for Grist?</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Eco chump? Huh?</strong></p><p>You write:<br>
If you pay extra for coffee beans that grew in the shade of trees providing endangered-species habitat, you might be an eco-chump.</p><p>
Umm... make fun if you want, but I think if more people were buying stuff like organic, shade grown coffee, the world would be a better place. &nbsp;</p><p>
If you don't agree, why the heck are you writing for Grist?</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by perifrog</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:01:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>I am unclear</strong></p><p>Perhaps Lisa B is confused by the humor like I was. &nbsp;My reading comprehension is not superb, but I think Penrose was suggesting that as ridiculous as some of the prices and gimmicks to sell eco wares are... In our capitalist society, when we act as ecochumps we may actually be acting as ecochamps because we're rewarding them by giving them our bucks and it may encourage them to make even more eco friendly products. &nbsp;</p><p>
I find this a very interesting article. &nbsp;I'm a penny-pincher, and unfortunately I often let economics win over the environment. &nbsp;I've been reading a interesting book, though somewhat dated, called Ecopsychology. &nbsp;The articles by Alan Durning, Allen Kanner, and Mary Gomes discuss consumerism in general and what role capitilism and psychology behind the advertising have played with our outrageous consumerism. &nbsp;Patagonias pants are super cool and organic and all, but wouldn't that pair of pants in the thrift store serve just as well, is sort of their point. &nbsp;As a new homeowner, this is all very interesting to me...with the amount of shopping I've been doing. &nbsp;Maybe I should be saving my money from all the knick nacks for new appliances. &nbsp;Ironically, I shop at Food Lion because its on the way home and wastes less gas, but all the organic produce (whether local or not) is wrapped in styrofoam and plastic because wouldn't it be terrible for it to come in contact with a chemical. &nbsp;I'm not preaching, just sharing thoughts, my eco soul has a long way to go, but I'm getting there.</p>
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				<p><strong>I am unclear</strong></p><p>Perhaps Lisa B is confused by the humor like I was. &nbsp;My reading comprehension is not superb, but I think Penrose was suggesting that as ridiculous as some of the prices and gimmicks to sell eco wares are... In our capitalist society, when we act as ecochumps we may actually be acting as ecochamps because we're rewarding them by giving them our bucks and it may encourage them to make even more eco friendly products. &nbsp;</p><p>
I find this a very interesting article. &nbsp;I'm a penny-pincher, and unfortunately I often let economics win over the environment. &nbsp;I've been reading a interesting book, though somewhat dated, called Ecopsychology. &nbsp;The articles by Alan Durning, Allen Kanner, and Mary Gomes discuss consumerism in general and what role capitilism and psychology behind the advertising have played with our outrageous consumerism. &nbsp;Patagonias pants are super cool and organic and all, but wouldn't that pair of pants in the thrift store serve just as well, is sort of their point. &nbsp;As a new homeowner, this is all very interesting to me...with the amount of shopping I've been doing. &nbsp;Maybe I should be saving my money from all the knick nacks for new appliances. &nbsp;Ironically, I shop at Food Lion because its on the way home and wastes less gas, but all the organic produce (whether local or not) is wrapped in styrofoam and plastic because wouldn't it be terrible for it to come in contact with a chemical. &nbsp;I'm not preaching, just sharing thoughts, my eco soul has a long way to go, but I'm getting there.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by jdhlax</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 09:59:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Right On, Lisa</strong></p><p>Calling buyers of shade grown coffee ecochumps was a particularly bad example. &nbsp;Falling for the legally meaningless term "natural" is one thing, but buying an alternative product that doesn't destroy the rainforest, as consumption of the traditional product does, is NOT being a chump of any kind. &nbsp;In fact, buying the rainforest-destroying coffee makes you a chump!</p>
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				<p><strong>Right On, Lisa</strong></p><p>Calling buyers of shade grown coffee ecochumps was a particularly bad example. &nbsp;Falling for the legally meaningless term "natural" is one thing, but buying an alternative product that doesn't destroy the rainforest, as consumption of the traditional product does, is NOT being a chump of any kind. &nbsp;In fact, buying the rainforest-destroying coffee makes you a chump!</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by johnfrancis</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:40:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>the chumpions</strong></p><p>Am in full accord with most assertions and will be sure that my wife reads the article as she tends to be a patsy &amp; somewhat OCD on the topic.<br>
However, alluding to hemp as possibly suspect is a mistake, except perhaps regarding pricing. Personally, I consider it a miracle plant and wear as much as possible. &nbsp;It is tragic that our great society cannot overcome its missplaced fears and fully exploit the potential uses of hemp for benefit of mankind, including solution of our oil dependency problem; while at the same time creating capital (and the paper we print it on). </br></p>
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				<p><strong>the chumpions</strong></p><p>Am in full accord with most assertions and will be sure that my wife reads the article as she tends to be a patsy &amp; somewhat OCD on the topic.<br>
However, alluding to hemp as possibly suspect is a mistake, except perhaps regarding pricing. Personally, I consider it a miracle plant and wear as much as possible. &nbsp;It is tragic that our great society cannot overcome its missplaced fears and fully exploit the potential uses of hemp for benefit of mankind, including solution of our oil dependency problem; while at the same time creating capital (and the paper we print it on). </br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by JoanMM</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:52:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Chump is as Chump does</strong></p><p>That was the most obnoxious article I have ever read on Grist. &nbsp;It made me reconsider my subscription (decision pending). &nbsp;</p><p>
I truly appreciate that Grist posts pieces challenging both conventional and unconventional wisdom, but this eco-chump article was just stupid -- and demeaning of people who try to make more environmentally sound buying decisions.</p><p>
The fact that the article focused on Doritos as a potential eco-product (what the #$% do you expect of Doritos?!?!?!?) is ridiculous, as is the part of the story about buying bark mulch as a drain cleaner. &nbsp;Not everyone is so stupid. </p><p>
Penrose is right about one thing -- he gives credence to Barnum's saying about one being born every minute, but I think that adage applies more to him than the rest of us eco-chumps out there, even if we do occasionally buy the wrong paper towels. </p><p>
The article also showed Penrose knows nothing about how effective the power of consumers who care about the environment can be. &nbsp;Praising McD's for ditching the styrofoam? &nbsp;Duh -- that happened ONLY after a very effective grassroots consumer campaign concerned about CFCs and recycling forced Ronald McDonald's hand.</p><p>
I have a sense of humor -- really. &nbsp;Maybe if this article was funnier, or more clever, the point and the attempt at satire (??) would have worked. Alas, it was neither funny nor clever. &nbsp;Instead, although Penrose claimed not to be discouraging people from trying to buy more ecologically-friendly products, I can't see how it did anything BUT that. </p>
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				<p><strong>Chump is as Chump does</strong></p><p>That was the most obnoxious article I have ever read on Grist. &nbsp;It made me reconsider my subscription (decision pending). &nbsp;</p><p>
I truly appreciate that Grist posts pieces challenging both conventional and unconventional wisdom, but this eco-chump article was just stupid -- and demeaning of people who try to make more environmentally sound buying decisions.</p><p>
The fact that the article focused on Doritos as a potential eco-product (what the #$% do you expect of Doritos?!?!?!?) is ridiculous, as is the part of the story about buying bark mulch as a drain cleaner. &nbsp;Not everyone is so stupid. </p><p>
Penrose is right about one thing -- he gives credence to Barnum's saying about one being born every minute, but I think that adage applies more to him than the rest of us eco-chumps out there, even if we do occasionally buy the wrong paper towels. </p><p>
The article also showed Penrose knows nothing about how effective the power of consumers who care about the environment can be. &nbsp;Praising McD's for ditching the styrofoam? &nbsp;Duh -- that happened ONLY after a very effective grassroots consumer campaign concerned about CFCs and recycling forced Ronald McDonald's hand.</p><p>
I have a sense of humor -- really. &nbsp;Maybe if this article was funnier, or more clever, the point and the attempt at satire (??) would have worked. Alas, it was neither funny nor clever. &nbsp;Instead, although Penrose claimed not to be discouraging people from trying to buy more ecologically-friendly products, I can't see how it did anything BUT that. </p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Stentor</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:34:16 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>huh?</strong></p><p>What was the point of this article? The author dumped a load of above-it-all nihilistic cynicism on us, then suddenly twisted around at the end for a bit of naive inspirationalism. If he had explained concrete strategies for avoiding being taken advantage of by the "natural" label, and given suggestions (a la Bobbi Katsanas's comment) for reducing the impact of your consumption and making your dollars count more in pushing companies toward green practices, that would be great. Instead we have an article that pointlessly ruffles the feathers of people who try to shop green.</p>
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				<p><strong>huh?</strong></p><p>What was the point of this article? The author dumped a load of above-it-all nihilistic cynicism on us, then suddenly twisted around at the end for a bit of naive inspirationalism. If he had explained concrete strategies for avoiding being taken advantage of by the "natural" label, and given suggestions (a la Bobbi Katsanas's comment) for reducing the impact of your consumption and making your dollars count more in pushing companies toward green practices, that would be great. Instead we have an article that pointlessly ruffles the feathers of people who try to shop green.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by pfontova</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:23:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>What was that about?!</strong></p><p>What a horrible article and what was the point? Don't be a chump and don't buy organic or eco friendly products? I think I missed something. </p>
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				<p><strong>What was that about?!</strong></p><p>What a horrible article and what was the point? Don't be a chump and don't buy organic or eco friendly products? I think I missed something. </p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Japhet</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:07:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>EnviroPerfectionist</strong></p><p>It seems that as concerned world citizens, and ones that are partial to the ecological health of the planet and biosphere, we activists are also perfectionists. It sounds like this piece was written to just some skepticism in the fire. I agree that we need to be weary of what we buy and to be vigilant over what is really considered "organic" or "natural" in someone else's definition. At the same time I agree with those above that we should be more encouraging sensible purchases and people who are at least trying to get it right as opposed to filling them with more repudiation. &nbsp;Kudos to the writer for having the guts to post such a controversial article but even more kudos to those who have flagged it with coherent argument. </p>
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				<p><strong>EnviroPerfectionist</strong></p><p>It seems that as concerned world citizens, and ones that are partial to the ecological health of the planet and biosphere, we activists are also perfectionists. It sounds like this piece was written to just some skepticism in the fire. I agree that we need to be weary of what we buy and to be vigilant over what is really considered "organic" or "natural" in someone else's definition. At the same time I agree with those above that we should be more encouraging sensible purchases and people who are at least trying to get it right as opposed to filling them with more repudiation. &nbsp;Kudos to the writer for having the guts to post such a controversial article but even more kudos to those who have flagged it with coherent argument. </p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by perifrog</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:37:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>I can't believe the reaction</strong></p><p>I really can't believe all the anger that came from that article. &nbsp;Those who make eco purchases are very laudable, those who try to reduce all purchases (and use vinegar, etc) are even more laudable, those who poke fun at the ironic twist that capitalism plays in eco products (the author) are laudable as well. &nbsp;Those of us who read gristmill are for the most part the choir...readers shop in eco friendly stores and buy eco friendly products. &nbsp;Don't forget joe schmo consumer out there who prizes his money and feels a little cheated when buying some wonderful organic earth friendly cereal, which has the same amount of packaging and half the cereal as the regular brand but costs double. &nbsp;As for big corporations providing eco alternatives...its a touchy subject...I highly suggest the movies Supersize me and even more The Corporation. &nbsp;Even when corporations are "being good" they aren't necessarily truly good. &nbsp;Its not a cut and dry issue, as most environmental issues aren't. &nbsp;Walmart, Doritos, and McDonalds have a long way to go, and perhaps can never be completely environmentally friendly. &nbsp;Remember folks satire or not, that author is more environmentally minded that at least 90% of the population of the US. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>I can't believe the reaction</strong></p><p>I really can't believe all the anger that came from that article. &nbsp;Those who make eco purchases are very laudable, those who try to reduce all purchases (and use vinegar, etc) are even more laudable, those who poke fun at the ironic twist that capitalism plays in eco products (the author) are laudable as well. &nbsp;Those of us who read gristmill are for the most part the choir...readers shop in eco friendly stores and buy eco friendly products. &nbsp;Don't forget joe schmo consumer out there who prizes his money and feels a little cheated when buying some wonderful organic earth friendly cereal, which has the same amount of packaging and half the cereal as the regular brand but costs double. &nbsp;As for big corporations providing eco alternatives...its a touchy subject...I highly suggest the movies Supersize me and even more The Corporation. &nbsp;Even when corporations are "being good" they aren't necessarily truly good. &nbsp;Its not a cut and dry issue, as most environmental issues aren't. &nbsp;Walmart, Doritos, and McDonalds have a long way to go, and perhaps can never be completely environmentally friendly. &nbsp;Remember folks satire or not, that author is more environmentally minded that at least 90% of the population of the US. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:45:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Great article</strong></p><p>It will make some people think twice, or maybe even once.</p>
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				<p><strong>Great article</strong></p><p>It will make some people think twice, or maybe even once.</p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jul 2005 00:40:36 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>Here's one.</strong></p><p>Instead of all those expensive "herbal" shampoos and cosmetics, trim a cedar branch or two (from a tree that needs trimming anyway preferably) steam 'em in your sauna or sweatlodge, or stovetop steamer, squeeze the cedar and rub your skin.</p><p>
Guaranteed non-chemical, herbal treatment that removes your body odor for a long time (it's the cedar oil, it's anti-bacterial)) and gives you a nice gentle exfoliation that beats any megabucks spa treatment. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Here's one.</strong></p><p>Instead of all those expensive "herbal" shampoos and cosmetics, trim a cedar branch or two (from a tree that needs trimming anyway preferably) steam 'em in your sauna or sweatlodge, or stovetop steamer, squeeze the cedar and rub your skin.</p><p>
Guaranteed non-chemical, herbal treatment that removes your body odor for a long time (it's the cedar oil, it's anti-bacterial)) and gives you a nice gentle exfoliation that beats any megabucks spa treatment. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Syniel</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 07:11:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/penrose-ecochump/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Chumpified here</strong></p><p>I would prbably fall iunder the "Chump" category.. especially after reading Japhet's link! </p><p>
and thanks Bobbi Kat.! i loved the tidbit about the baking soda and vinegar. Wow</p>
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				<p><strong>Chumpified here</strong></p><p>I would prbably fall iunder the "Chump" category.. especially after reading Japhet's link! </p><p>
and thanks Bobbi Kat.! i loved the tidbit about the baking soda and vinegar. Wow</p>
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