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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Peak oil, coal, and bizarre optimism]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:55:37 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Both are right<p>It's my understanding that Quiggin, etc. are correct that coal could replace oil -- but with all the accompanying problems that you mention, David.<p>
They do rather airly dispense with the massive economic dislocations that would result. &nbsp;Peter Tertzakian ("A Thousand Barrels a Second") points out that energy systems are extremely difficult and expensive to change.<p>
In addition, even if carbon sequestration can scale up, it will add expense. &nbsp;It will be tempting to burn dirty coal and to hell with the CO2. Do we anticipate that all the countries in the world would police themselves? &nbsp;The outlook is not good.<p>
Nathan Lewis of Caltech takes the position that coal could replace oil, though with catastrophic side effects such as global warming. For him, the best way to avoid the problem is to develop cheap PV cells. (Lewis gives an excellent, though dense talk on energy <a href="http://today.caltech.edu/theater/list?subset=all&amp;story%5fcount=end" rel="nofollow">here (halfway down the page) / more material <a href="http://nsl.caltech.edu/energy.html" rel="nofollow">here )<p>
On the other hand.... <br>
John Quiggin's point is a welcome antidote to the end of the world / survivalist scenarios that crop up among Peak Oil folks. &nbsp;To my mind, these scenarios distract us from the real problems which will be economic, political and envrionmental. &nbsp;</br></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Both are right<p>It's my understanding that Quiggin, etc. are correct that coal could replace oil -- but with all the accompanying problems that you mention, David.<p>
They do rather airly dispense with the massive economic dislocations that would result. &nbsp;Peter Tertzakian ("A Thousand Barrels a Second") points out that energy systems are extremely difficult and expensive to change.<p>
In addition, even if carbon sequestration can scale up, it will add expense. &nbsp;It will be tempting to burn dirty coal and to hell with the CO2. Do we anticipate that all the countries in the world would police themselves? &nbsp;The outlook is not good.<p>
Nathan Lewis of Caltech takes the position that coal could replace oil, though with catastrophic side effects such as global warming. For him, the best way to avoid the problem is to develop cheap PV cells. (Lewis gives an excellent, though dense talk on energy <a href="http://today.caltech.edu/theater/list?subset=all&amp;story%5fcount=end" rel="nofollow">here (halfway down the page) / more material <a href="http://nsl.caltech.edu/energy.html" rel="nofollow">here )<p>
On the other hand.... <br>
John Quiggin's point is a welcome antidote to the end of the world / survivalist scenarios that crop up among Peak Oil folks. &nbsp;To my mind, these scenarios distract us from the real problems which will be economic, political and envrionmental. &nbsp;</br></p></a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by jdeely</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:00:09 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Too much cheap oil<p>When are people going to get it... there is too MUCH cheap oil and too MUCH cheap coal. <p>
We need a very large carbon tax so that people will switch off coal and oil faster than they will by so-called peak oil. &nbsp;CO2 and global warming is the real problem. &nbsp;Peak oil is a joke.<p>
As oil prices rise, more oil will be found and produced, more shale oil will come online and substitutes will be found. This is simple economics.<p>
Two small examples of substitution caused by oil prices rising... from what will be 1000's of examples over the next thirty years.<p>
Corn based Plastics<br>
<a href="http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060301/priority-costs.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060301/priority-costs.html<p>
Coal Based Jet-Fuel<br>
<a href="http://www.physorg.com/news12146.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physorg.com/news12146.html</a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Too much cheap oil<p>When are people going to get it... there is too MUCH cheap oil and too MUCH cheap coal. <p>
We need a very large carbon tax so that people will switch off coal and oil faster than they will by so-called peak oil. &nbsp;CO2 and global warming is the real problem. &nbsp;Peak oil is a joke.<p>
As oil prices rise, more oil will be found and produced, more shale oil will come online and substitutes will be found. This is simple economics.<p>
Two small examples of substitution caused by oil prices rising... from what will be 1000's of examples over the next thirty years.<p>
Corn based Plastics<br>
<a href="http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060301/priority-costs.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060301/priority-costs.html<p>
Coal Based Jet-Fuel<br>
<a href="http://www.physorg.com/news12146.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physorg.com/news12146.html</a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:08:01 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>rate of production</strong></p><p>The coal optimists assume more than CO2 sequestration, for a happy future we also have to build enough coal-to-oil plants at just the right pace to offset oil price increases, and leave our economies intact.</p><p>
People are building a few coal-to-oil plants, but I find it astounding that they think a ramp-up to <b>continue the current trend</b> in oil consumption is possible.</p>
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				<p><strong>rate of production</strong></p><p>The coal optimists assume more than CO2 sequestration, for a happy future we also have to build enough coal-to-oil plants at just the right pace to offset oil price increases, and leave our economies intact.</p><p>
People are building a few coal-to-oil plants, but I find it astounding that they think a ramp-up to <b>continue the current trend</b> in oil consumption is possible.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:06:44 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>NRDC has become the enemy?</strong></p><p>It looks like RFK's opposition to Cape Wind was an indicator of the true nature of this organization. &nbsp;Too bad.</p><p>
Will they back nuclear power next? &nbsp;It wouldn't be a surprise given this endorsement of coal.</p><p>
My guess is they were coopted by DC lobbyists. &nbsp;No environmental organization should hire DC insiders, the place is filthy with crooking.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>NRDC has become the enemy?</strong></p><p>It looks like RFK's opposition to Cape Wind was an indicator of the true nature of this organization. &nbsp;Too bad.</p><p>
Will they back nuclear power next? &nbsp;It wouldn't be a surprise given this endorsement of coal.</p><p>
My guess is they were coopted by DC lobbyists. &nbsp;No environmental organization should hire DC insiders, the place is filthy with crooking.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 06:16:41 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Who Needs Coal?</strong></p><p>Some predictions are easy. &nbsp;Oil at $300/bbl., natural gas at &nbsp;$60/MMBTU, electricity at $1.00/kWh, and there goes the consumer economy and jobs. &nbsp;</p><p>
You will all be on your own for survival sans money. &nbsp;That means heat from burning anything at hand, most likely lumps of coal in the home for heat, hot water, and cooking. &nbsp;</p><p>
Add to this problem 20 feet sea rise from Greenland and 250 feet from Antarctica. &nbsp;I do not think blogs and "what we should do" will make a wit of difference.</p><p>
The situation is grim but not hopeless. &nbsp;Solar energy, if developed in time, can create a billion jobs around the globe. &nbsp;Solar energy is cheaper than coal. </p><p>
Henry Ford made good paying jobs so his employees can buy his cars. &nbsp;The same can be done with district heating plus seasonal-heat-storage powered by solar collectors. &nbsp;</p><p>
The first step is leadership. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Who Needs Coal?</strong></p><p>Some predictions are easy. &nbsp;Oil at $300/bbl., natural gas at &nbsp;$60/MMBTU, electricity at $1.00/kWh, and there goes the consumer economy and jobs. &nbsp;</p><p>
You will all be on your own for survival sans money. &nbsp;That means heat from burning anything at hand, most likely lumps of coal in the home for heat, hot water, and cooking. &nbsp;</p><p>
Add to this problem 20 feet sea rise from Greenland and 250 feet from Antarctica. &nbsp;I do not think blogs and "what we should do" will make a wit of difference.</p><p>
The situation is grim but not hopeless. &nbsp;Solar energy, if developed in time, can create a billion jobs around the globe. &nbsp;Solar energy is cheaper than coal. </p><p>
Henry Ford made good paying jobs so his employees can buy his cars. &nbsp;The same can be done with district heating plus seasonal-heat-storage powered by solar collectors. &nbsp;</p><p>
The first step is leadership. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by DaveKimble</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:31:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>coal to oil lead times<p>In the Hirsch Report <a href="http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf <br>
they look carefully at the amount of time it takes to set up a manufacturing capability in various different unconventional transport fuel processes.<p>
The coal-to-liquid Sasol process set up in South Africa is a good example. Having completed a new plant, and before all the technical staff drifted away to other things, the government decided to build a duplicate facility on the same site, using exactly the same plans.<p>
They thus had everything going for them - environmental impact assessments done, planning permission granted, designs all worked out and the wrinkles already overcome, experienced staff and workers, external supplies and support infrastructure already in place.<p>
And the time to build the second plant to the point of commissioning ? 3 years.<p>
So one could easily expect that without all these favourable factors, the project would take six years, or even ten years if there is a strong NIMBY protest movement in the locality.<p>
More than enough time for oil depletion to have brought on astronomical oil prices, recession, labour unrest, housing bubble collapse, US Dollar/banking crash, wildly uncertain future for energy prices.<p>
Hardly the environment to be undertaking a massively energy-intensive long-term energy project.<p>
We are now not just at Peak Oil, we are at Peak Energy and Peak Population.<br>
</br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>coal to oil lead times<p>In the Hirsch Report <a href="http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf <br>
they look carefully at the amount of time it takes to set up a manufacturing capability in various different unconventional transport fuel processes.<p>
The coal-to-liquid Sasol process set up in South Africa is a good example. Having completed a new plant, and before all the technical staff drifted away to other things, the government decided to build a duplicate facility on the same site, using exactly the same plans.<p>
They thus had everything going for them - environmental impact assessments done, planning permission granted, designs all worked out and the wrinkles already overcome, experienced staff and workers, external supplies and support infrastructure already in place.<p>
And the time to build the second plant to the point of commissioning ? 3 years.<p>
So one could easily expect that without all these favourable factors, the project would take six years, or even ten years if there is a strong NIMBY protest movement in the locality.<p>
More than enough time for oil depletion to have brought on astronomical oil prices, recession, labour unrest, housing bubble collapse, US Dollar/banking crash, wildly uncertain future for energy prices.<p>
Hardly the environment to be undertaking a massively energy-intensive long-term energy project.<p>
We are now not just at Peak Oil, we are at Peak Energy and Peak Population.<br>
</br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by OregonJim</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:59:28 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Coal Replace Oil? Crazy Ideas</strong></p><p>The idea that coal could replace oil in time to ease this crisis is a little odd. Dave Kimble has it right about the timing issue.</p><p>
But more fundamental is the arithmetic issue. A great physicist at U. Colorado, Albert Bartlett, made a film that explains it clearly. The important thing is Exponential Growth. Our use of oil in the last 15 years has grown at about 3.5% per year. Using the Rule of 70, you can divide 70 by 3.5 and find that we will double our usage of oil in 15 years - using up in the next 15 years as much as we used since the discovery of oil in 1859. The same holds true for coal. Economists tell us that "at present rates of consumption" we have enough for hundreds of years. But we increase our use of coal by a certain percentage annually, and now we would add the requirements of replacing the oil we have been using, which has amounted to some 40% of our total energy use. So we add 40% to our present consumptions, even if we could build the infrastructure in time, and then increase that by a steady percentage of 3-4%, and we would run out of coal in a couple of decades. So that is not the answer I want. It seems to me that hoping for coal or gas or nucs or whatever is more of a way of avoiding the issue than a potential answer. I don't know the answer, I hasten to add, but at least I am not escaping into denial. Acknowledging the truth is the first step. Ask any drunk.</p><p>
Oregon Jim</p>
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				<p><strong>Coal Replace Oil? Crazy Ideas</strong></p><p>The idea that coal could replace oil in time to ease this crisis is a little odd. Dave Kimble has it right about the timing issue.</p><p>
But more fundamental is the arithmetic issue. A great physicist at U. Colorado, Albert Bartlett, made a film that explains it clearly. The important thing is Exponential Growth. Our use of oil in the last 15 years has grown at about 3.5% per year. Using the Rule of 70, you can divide 70 by 3.5 and find that we will double our usage of oil in 15 years - using up in the next 15 years as much as we used since the discovery of oil in 1859. The same holds true for coal. Economists tell us that "at present rates of consumption" we have enough for hundreds of years. But we increase our use of coal by a certain percentage annually, and now we would add the requirements of replacing the oil we have been using, which has amounted to some 40% of our total energy use. So we add 40% to our present consumptions, even if we could build the infrastructure in time, and then increase that by a steady percentage of 3-4%, and we would run out of coal in a couple of decades. So that is not the answer I want. It seems to me that hoping for coal or gas or nucs or whatever is more of a way of avoiding the issue than a potential answer. I don't know the answer, I hasten to add, but at least I am not escaping into denial. Acknowledging the truth is the first step. Ask any drunk.</p><p>
Oregon Jim</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:29:22 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/peak-oil-coal-and-bizarre-optimism/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>futures</strong></p><p>There are lots of possible futures, and we won't know for sure which one we get until we live it.</p><p>
But it strikes me that one plausable future is that the US government understands that there is a looming oil shortfall, but is trapped in their policy response. &nbsp;Or feels trapped.</p><p>
So I think what they think is that they'll sit tight and let prices change American priorities. &nbsp;Maybe they expect a return to the 70's, with a scramble for efficient cars, carpooling, mopeds, etc.</p><p>
I'd like something more proactive than that, but I can understand (given the basic limits of modern representative democracy) why they can't do more without immediately killing GM through efficiency mandates, and sending economic shockwaves.</p><p>
(And there isn't currently backing for a taxpayer funded remake of GM into a fuel efficiency company.)</p><p>
GM may die anyway, but it won't be their "fault" at election time. &nbsp;They can all pretend ethanol will work short-term, until short-term prices disprove it.</p>
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				<p><strong>futures</strong></p><p>There are lots of possible futures, and we won't know for sure which one we get until we live it.</p><p>
But it strikes me that one plausable future is that the US government understands that there is a looming oil shortfall, but is trapped in their policy response. &nbsp;Or feels trapped.</p><p>
So I think what they think is that they'll sit tight and let prices change American priorities. &nbsp;Maybe they expect a return to the 70's, with a scramble for efficient cars, carpooling, mopeds, etc.</p><p>
I'd like something more proactive than that, but I can understand (given the basic limits of modern representative democracy) why they can't do more without immediately killing GM through efficiency mandates, and sending economic shockwaves.</p><p>
(And there isn't currently backing for a taxpayer funded remake of GM into a fuel efficiency company.)</p><p>
GM may die anyway, but it won't be their "fault" at election time. &nbsp;They can all pretend ethanol will work short-term, until short-term prices disprove it.</p>
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