<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for What is the safe upper limit for atmospheric CO2?]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:47:46 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/1 A World War II type effort...

...was the subject of a post of mine, the gist (grist?) being that the Federal government just about took over the entire economy during WWII.  In fact, some scholars have claimed that the Feds' control of the economy was greater than the Soviets, mostly because the population saw the effort as legitimate and enthusiastically pitched in.  I think a good place to start is talking in the range of governments at all levels spending a trillion dollars per year, if you want to go the WWII-effort-route, but I don't know if that's what you mean, Joe, or what most people mean when they use that term.

]]> A World War II type effort...

...was the subject of a post of mine, the gist (grist?) being that the Federal government just about took over the entire economy during WWII.  In fact, some scholars have claimed that the Feds' control of the economy was greater than the Soviets, mostly because the population saw the effort as legitimate and enthusiastically pitched in.  I think a good place to start is talking in the range of governments at all levels spending a trillion dollars per year, if you want to go the WWII-effort-route, but I don't know if that's what you mean, Joe, or what most people mean when they use that term.

]]> Comment #2 by GRLCowan http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:31:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/2 Not unexpected

if we do get some sort of unexpected breakthrough -- a cheap and practical way to draw CO2 out of the air (that doesn't use a lot of land, water, or energy) and stick it someplace permanent --

Already seen happening, as I've said before.

How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?

]]> Not unexpected

if we do get some sort of unexpected breakthrough -- a cheap and practical way to draw CO2 out of the air (that doesn't use a lot of land, water, or energy) and stick it someplace permanent --

Already seen happening, as I've said before.

How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?

]]> Comment #3 by Anna Haynes http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:02:18 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/3 Looming environmental disaster,time travel to warn

> "You might as well tell people we need to develop a time machine to go back 20 years and warn the world that we need to start cutting emissions then.... And whom would we send back, anyway?"

Tachyons? Gregory Benford seems to have gotten the rest right...
(Although he didn't predict the denial industry, IIRC.  If he had, the book wouldn't have had an upbeat ending.)

]]> Looming environmental disaster,time travel to warn

> "You might as well tell people we need to develop a time machine to go back 20 years and warn the world that we need to start cutting emissions then.... And whom would we send back, anyway?"

Tachyons? Gregory Benford seems to have gotten the rest right...
(Although he didn't predict the denial industry, IIRC.  If he had, the book wouldn't have had an upbeat ending.)

]]> Comment #4 by Anna Haynes http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:05:48 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/4 a better link

Timescape on Wikipedia

]]> a better link

Timescape on Wikipedia

]]> Comment #5 by Earth Shaman http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:59:00 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/5 Rev, Revv, Revvv

Oh Mr. Romm,here you go again ,claiming terrible disaster if the PPM goes above a certain level,my ,my, I say even some of the accepted science peerage have stated that the ice core evidence has shown vey high carbon ratio evidence and you still fail to stop and smell my beautiful roses and those periods didnt burn the carbohydrates to form the carbons at all or did they? Methinks you will not task me back at all because you know you are caught and caught big time and your ego just will not let you regroup.Every since you took my taskings evidence off your blog without so much as a query, I knew I had you fully in hand and would soon spank you and spank you in public for your impertinence.Try Maalox sir,as you will only get twisted more and more as time goes forth. Ta Ta.

Earth Shaman

]]> Rev, Revv, Revvv

Oh Mr. Romm,here you go again ,claiming terrible disaster if the PPM goes above a certain level,my ,my, I say even some of the accepted science peerage have stated that the ice core evidence has shown vey high carbon ratio evidence and you still fail to stop and smell my beautiful roses and those periods didnt burn the carbohydrates to form the carbons at all or did they? Methinks you will not task me back at all because you know you are caught and caught big time and your ego just will not let you regroup.Every since you took my taskings evidence off your blog without so much as a query, I knew I had you fully in hand and would soon spank you and spank you in public for your impertinence.Try Maalox sir,as you will only get twisted more and more as time goes forth. Ta Ta.

Earth Shaman

]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:00:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/6 The end

Great topic Anna.

Will linear mechanistic culture end when the first signals from the future are sent back through the tachyon accelerator?

Think about it.  Once the future opens up, cause and effect linear perception and everything that depends upon it evaporates.  Stock markets, banks, governments.  

2012 is the year of change in the mayan calendar.  Is this the cause?  A tachyon digital stream sent back to the present from the future.  with the information that wrecks it all.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> The end

Great topic Anna.

Will linear mechanistic culture end when the first signals from the future are sent back through the tachyon accelerator?

Think about it.  Once the future opens up, cause and effect linear perception and everything that depends upon it evaporates.  Stock markets, banks, governments.  

2012 is the year of change in the mayan calendar.  Is this the cause?  A tachyon digital stream sent back to the present from the future.  with the information that wrecks it all.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #7 by Earth Shaman http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:12:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/7 The End

Oh boy Dr, X, might want to slow down on the caffeine,but your comment on the Mayan 2012 calendar prompted me to remind you that the 1050 anomaly is what the mayans were tasking to caledarize, it is the time of the great flood when the remnants of a system explosion re-visit us and beat us up with weather. And Tachyons,ah yes spin energy ,a different but valid process.But certainly not such futuristic digital streaming as you would dream aloud,but you may have fun in the spin if you wish.Tachyon accelerator ,NO,Dr.X spin,yes. Try some valerian root for sleeplessness,you might need a rest from the shunt or the spin man in your nose. Process....

Earth Shaman

]]> The End

Oh boy Dr, X, might want to slow down on the caffeine,but your comment on the Mayan 2012 calendar prompted me to remind you that the 1050 anomaly is what the mayans were tasking to caledarize, it is the time of the great flood when the remnants of a system explosion re-visit us and beat us up with weather. And Tachyons,ah yes spin energy ,a different but valid process.But certainly not such futuristic digital streaming as you would dream aloud,but you may have fun in the spin if you wish.Tachyon accelerator ,NO,Dr.X spin,yes. Try some valerian root for sleeplessness,you might need a rest from the shunt or the spin man in your nose. Process....

Earth Shaman

]]> Comment #8 by LGT http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:35:37 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/8 Flap your wings to save the world

"2012 is the year of change in the Mayan calendar."

What coincidence! :)

According to at least two dynamic models the worst case scenario could unfold by as early as 2012, when...

http://edro.wordpress.com/butterfly-effect/

Future, in its fullest definition, is no longer an option, at least AFA humanity is concerned. At the current rate and mix of events, future is an ever-shrinking apparition of what "future" could have been!

CO2PPM

Here's a short, but interesting discussion about the CO2 concentration in  the atmosphere. In December 2006, my colleague briefly commented on "The Stern report, Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2379

The biographer of Noam Chomsky, of all people (!), replied:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2380
And...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2381





]]> Flap your wings to save the world

"2012 is the year of change in the Mayan calendar."

What coincidence! :)

According to at least two dynamic models the worst case scenario could unfold by as early as 2012, when...

http://edro.wordpress.com/butterfly-effect/

Future, in its fullest definition, is no longer an option, at least AFA humanity is concerned. At the current rate and mix of events, future is an ever-shrinking apparition of what "future" could have been!

CO2PPM

Here's a short, but interesting discussion about the CO2 concentration in  the atmosphere. In December 2006, my colleague briefly commented on "The Stern report, Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2379

The biographer of Noam Chomsky, of all people (!), replied:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2380
And...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naspir/message/2381





]]> Comment #9 by Steve Bloom http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:51 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/9 450 ppm max., then back to 350 ppm ASAP

Joe, given the apparent lack of loud shrieking following Hansen's AGU presentation, I can only assume he was talking about the need to drop back to 350 ppm as soon as possible; i.e., that we can probably survive an excursion to 450 ppm without extreme damage, but will need to keep that as brief as possible.  Given that 450 PPM likely is incompatible with significant amounts of permanent ice, is there a reasonable alternative view?

There's another aspect to this:  We probably won't reach the 450 ppm limit for another 20 years or so, and arguably that results in the problem being viewed as far less urgent than it actually is.  The evidence seems to be that most people -- even very intelligent ones -- have a conceptual block when it comes to this sort of problem.  Please have a look at this key paper if you haven't already:

"Understanding Public Complacency About Climate Change:
Adults' mental models of climate change violate conservation of matter

"Public attitudes about climate change reveal a contradiction. Surveys show most Americans believe climate change poses serious risks but also that reductions in greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions sufficient to stabilize atmospheric GHG concentrations or net radiative forcing can be deferred until there is greater evidence that climate change is harmful. US policymakers likewise argue it is prudent to wait and see whether climate change will cause substantial economic harm before undertaking policies to reduce emissions. Such wait-and-see policies erroneously presume climate change can be reversed quickly should harm become evident, underestimating substantial delays in the climate's response to anthropogenic forcing. We report experiments with highly educated adults-graduate students at MIT-showing widespread misunderstanding of the fundamental stock and flow relationships, including mass balance principles, that lead to long response delays. GHG emissions are now about twice the rate of GHG removal from the atmosphere. GHG concentrations will therefore continue to rise even if emissions fall, stabilizing only when emissions equal removal. In contrast, results show most subjects believe atmospheric GHG concentrations can be stabilized while emissions into the atmosphere continuously exceed the removal of GHGs from it. These beliefs-analogous to arguing a bathtub filled faster than it drains will never overflow-support wait-and-see policies but violate conservation of matter. Low public support for mitigation policies may be based more on misconceptions of climate dynamics than high discount rates or uncertainty about the risks of harmful climate change."
   


]]> 450 ppm max., then back to 350 ppm ASAP

Joe, given the apparent lack of loud shrieking following Hansen's AGU presentation, I can only assume he was talking about the need to drop back to 350 ppm as soon as possible; i.e., that we can probably survive an excursion to 450 ppm without extreme damage, but will need to keep that as brief as possible.  Given that 450 PPM likely is incompatible with significant amounts of permanent ice, is there a reasonable alternative view?

There's another aspect to this:  We probably won't reach the 450 ppm limit for another 20 years or so, and arguably that results in the problem being viewed as far less urgent than it actually is.  The evidence seems to be that most people -- even very intelligent ones -- have a conceptual block when it comes to this sort of problem.  Please have a look at this key paper if you haven't already:

"Understanding Public Complacency About Climate Change:
Adults' mental models of climate change violate conservation of matter

"Public attitudes about climate change reveal a contradiction. Surveys show most Americans believe climate change poses serious risks but also that reductions in greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions sufficient to stabilize atmospheric GHG concentrations or net radiative forcing can be deferred until there is greater evidence that climate change is harmful. US policymakers likewise argue it is prudent to wait and see whether climate change will cause substantial economic harm before undertaking policies to reduce emissions. Such wait-and-see policies erroneously presume climate change can be reversed quickly should harm become evident, underestimating substantial delays in the climate's response to anthropogenic forcing. We report experiments with highly educated adults-graduate students at MIT-showing widespread misunderstanding of the fundamental stock and flow relationships, including mass balance principles, that lead to long response delays. GHG emissions are now about twice the rate of GHG removal from the atmosphere. GHG concentrations will therefore continue to rise even if emissions fall, stabilizing only when emissions equal removal. In contrast, results show most subjects believe atmospheric GHG concentrations can be stabilized while emissions into the atmosphere continuously exceed the removal of GHGs from it. These beliefs-analogous to arguing a bathtub filled faster than it drains will never overflow-support wait-and-see policies but violate conservation of matter. Low public support for mitigation policies may be based more on misconceptions of climate dynamics than high discount rates or uncertainty about the risks of harmful climate change."
   


]]> Comment #10 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:41:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/10 2012

I couldn't find the specific article about the tachyon accelerator time device.  Who can censor google?  Only Cheney, his residence is the only spot on spaceship earth not shown by google earth.  

No conspiracy necessary (mwahahahaha..hehey)

Anyway, how this is supposed to work is that laser beams projecting in such a way to produce a vortex accelerate a tachyon stream (carrying internet signals, on/off digitally, just as electrons are carrying this information on the regular internet) past the speed of light.  That sends the tachyon stream back in time, upon emerging from the other end of the vortex.

A scientist gets this device working (in say 2012) and starts receiving information from the future (stock prices, commodity prices, lottery numbers, details of future events) sent by himself in the future, back to himself in the present.

Being a mad scientist who wants to rule the world, he first wins the lottery, then starts to use his future information to take over markets, corporations, governments.  Of course he is soon found out and the CIA starts manipulating everything on a massive, secret scale.  Once news leaks, no one's pension, paycheck, or currency for that matter is safe.  

It all becomes meaningless, everything based on linear time cause/effect thinking.  The shock to the whole of linear thinking humanity renders it inoperable, only the Zen survive.  Those who don't depend on bottomline thinking.

Go with the flow and survive.

Hehey, it makes a great sci-fi plot anyway.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> 2012

I couldn't find the specific article about the tachyon accelerator time device.  Who can censor google?  Only Cheney, his residence is the only spot on spaceship earth not shown by google earth.  

No conspiracy necessary (mwahahahaha..hehey)

Anyway, how this is supposed to work is that laser beams projecting in such a way to produce a vortex accelerate a tachyon stream (carrying internet signals, on/off digitally, just as electrons are carrying this information on the regular internet) past the speed of light.  That sends the tachyon stream back in time, upon emerging from the other end of the vortex.

A scientist gets this device working (in say 2012) and starts receiving information from the future (stock prices, commodity prices, lottery numbers, details of future events) sent by himself in the future, back to himself in the present.

Being a mad scientist who wants to rule the world, he first wins the lottery, then starts to use his future information to take over markets, corporations, governments.  Of course he is soon found out and the CIA starts manipulating everything on a massive, secret scale.  Once news leaks, no one's pension, paycheck, or currency for that matter is safe.  

It all becomes meaningless, everything based on linear time cause/effect thinking.  The shock to the whole of linear thinking humanity renders it inoperable, only the Zen survive.  Those who don't depend on bottomline thinking.

Go with the flow and survive.

Hehey, it makes a great sci-fi plot anyway.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #11 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:51:00 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/11 Ancient Rome

With the destruction of aqueducts Rome could only support a few thousand people, millions just left.  The same with mysterious dissappearances of ancient mezoamerican city populations?  They vanished overnight according to archeaological discoveries.

With the end of money, the same would happen to modern cities.  Mass migration back to rural life, with many dying from conflict, privation, and disease in the process.  

Information from the future, the end of civilization as we know it?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Ancient Rome

With the destruction of aqueducts Rome could only support a few thousand people, millions just left.  The same with mysterious dissappearances of ancient mezoamerican city populations?  They vanished overnight according to archeaological discoveries.

With the end of money, the same would happen to modern cities.  Mass migration back to rural life, with many dying from conflict, privation, and disease in the process.  

Information from the future, the end of civilization as we know it?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #12 by enki http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:51:32 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/12 RE: Rev, Revv, Revvv

Shaman?

At any rate, yes there were very long periods in the Earth's history when there were much higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Assuming that, during those periods the Earth's atmospheric density was the same as it is today then some other gas would have had to have been displaced by that CO2. The most likely candidate would be oxygen since oxygen levels are falling in our atmosphere today due to CO2 displacement.

One other interesting thing to factor into your argument would be that, in all those periods of the planet's history when CO2 levels were very high, there were no human beings on the planet. In fact we humans are a relatively recent addition to the biosphere and evolved in our present form with essentially the atmosphere that we have today.

Mike Johnston

]]> RE: Rev, Revv, Revvv

Shaman?

At any rate, yes there were very long periods in the Earth's history when there were much higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Assuming that, during those periods the Earth's atmospheric density was the same as it is today then some other gas would have had to have been displaced by that CO2. The most likely candidate would be oxygen since oxygen levels are falling in our atmosphere today due to CO2 displacement.

One other interesting thing to factor into your argument would be that, in all those periods of the planet's history when CO2 levels were very high, there were no human beings on the planet. In fact we humans are a relatively recent addition to the biosphere and evolved in our present form with essentially the atmosphere that we have today.

Mike Johnston

]]> Comment #13 by LegumeSam http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 02:30:14 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/13 CO2 was higher hundreds of millions of years ago

but also the Sun wasn't as bright then as it is today.  The luminosity of a mature star increases as it gets older, up to the point at which it becomes a white dwarf...

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> CO2 was higher hundreds of millions of years ago

but also the Sun wasn't as bright then as it is today.  The luminosity of a mature star increases as it gets older, up to the point at which it becomes a white dwarf...

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> Comment #14 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 02:44:00 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/14 Thanks Joe, some quotes from your book...

Hell and High Water (p.234-236) (by the way, makes a great gift):...if we wanted to avoid climate catastrophe while avoiding economic collapse, we would have no choice but to scrap most of this polluting capital long before the end of its natural lilfe, while replacing it with clean, efficient capital at a rapid rate.

This national (and global) reindustrialization effort would be on the scale of what we did during World War II, except it would laswt far linger...

The scale of the war effort was astonishing...[quoting Teller speaking to Bohr] "You see, I told you it couldn't be done without turning the whole country into a factory."

Such desperate and undesirable national actions are a long, long way from mandated controls on carbon dioxide emissions...The ultimate irony would be if conservative disdain for straightforward government-led solutions today forced the country into far more intrusive and onerous government solutions tomorrow.

Exactly!

]]> Thanks Joe, some quotes from your book...

Hell and High Water (p.234-236) (by the way, makes a great gift):...if we wanted to avoid climate catastrophe while avoiding economic collapse, we would have no choice but to scrap most of this polluting capital long before the end of its natural lilfe, while replacing it with clean, efficient capital at a rapid rate.

This national (and global) reindustrialization effort would be on the scale of what we did during World War II, except it would laswt far linger...

The scale of the war effort was astonishing...[quoting Teller speaking to Bohr] "You see, I told you it couldn't be done without turning the whole country into a factory."

Such desperate and undesirable national actions are a long, long way from mandated controls on carbon dioxide emissions...The ultimate irony would be if conservative disdain for straightforward government-led solutions today forced the country into far more intrusive and onerous government solutions tomorrow.

Exactly!

]]> Comment #15 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:04:00 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/15 Real capitalism

Yep, it would be far better if subsidies were shifted to new energy policy now.  Impelling real competitive capitalsim to revive the economy right now when it is needed.

Remember the jeep, government directed design and production that spawned a decades long very successful, profitable car line.

The same could happen for plugin hybrid design.

Floating wind/wave generators are analogous to the Liberty ships.   Assembled in ship yard dry docks and towed out to sea and anchored.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Real capitalism

Yep, it would be far better if subsidies were shifted to new energy policy now.  Impelling real competitive capitalsim to revive the economy right now when it is needed.

Remember the jeep, government directed design and production that spawned a decades long very successful, profitable car line.

The same could happen for plugin hybrid design.

Floating wind/wave generators are analogous to the Liberty ships.   Assembled in ship yard dry docks and towed out to sea and anchored.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #16 by LegumeSam http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 05:34:52 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/16 Real capitalism is on its way out

that's why "real capitalism" became the imaginary sort that runs the world through "finance capital" today: the demand for growth has been outstripping the supply for thirty years, now...

Real capitalism will eventually damage its ecosystem substrate through what the economists call "economic growth," beyond repair.  From Paul Prew's "21st century world ecosystem":

The question to be asked, really, is whether we proceed with capitalism until we reach an ecological bifurcation point that leaves the habitability of the earth in question for the vast majority of the population, or we reach a social bifurcation point that leads us to a social system of production that is dissipative, nonetheless, but does not threaten the flowing balance of nature. We must develop a metabolic interaction with our natural environment that is based in a logic of production consistent with renewable sources of energy and does not significantly add to the volatility of variables leading to an ecological crisis.

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus


]]> Real capitalism is on its way out

that's why "real capitalism" became the imaginary sort that runs the world through "finance capital" today: the demand for growth has been outstripping the supply for thirty years, now...

Real capitalism will eventually damage its ecosystem substrate through what the economists call "economic growth," beyond repair.  From Paul Prew's "21st century world ecosystem":

The question to be asked, really, is whether we proceed with capitalism until we reach an ecological bifurcation point that leaves the habitability of the earth in question for the vast majority of the population, or we reach a social bifurcation point that leads us to a social system of production that is dissipative, nonetheless, but does not threaten the flowing balance of nature. We must develop a metabolic interaction with our natural environment that is based in a logic of production consistent with renewable sources of energy and does not significantly add to the volatility of variables leading to an ecological crisis.

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus


]]> Comment #17 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 07:31:53 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/17 LegumeSam --

So when are you going to write a book that explains in clear English all of those interesting authors you keep bringing up that I can't understand what they're talking about? y'know?

]]> LegumeSam --

So when are you going to write a book that explains in clear English all of those interesting authors you keep bringing up that I can't understand what they're talking about? y'know?

]]> Comment #18 by LegumeSam http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 07:47:12 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/18 Jon --

Since I'm not one of the "contributors" here (although I certainly could be such a thing, given my abilities as a researcher/ writer), I don't write here often.  But I do publish "diaries" on various subjects at DailyKos.com...  

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> Jon --

Since I'm not one of the "contributors" here (although I certainly could be such a thing, given my abilities as a researcher/ writer), I don't write here often.  But I do publish "diaries" on various subjects at DailyKos.com...  

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> Comment #19 by picassotrigger http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:14:49 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/19 It may be impossible, but Hansen is probably right

I'm not a climate expert, but I think Hansen is probably right in suggesting 350 ppm as the upper target for atmospheric CO2.

If the arctic polar ice cap has been receding and thinning for decades, and if the Greenland ice sheet is melting today--at atmospheric CO2 levels below 380 ppm--what exactly will a stabilization at 450 ppm accomplish?

Perhaps it will save the antarctic ice sheet, and perhaps not.

I would argue that nothing focuses the mind like an impossible goal. Whether or not you actually attain that goal is immaterial.

]]> It may be impossible, but Hansen is probably right

I'm not a climate expert, but I think Hansen is probably right in suggesting 350 ppm as the upper target for atmospheric CO2.

If the arctic polar ice cap has been receding and thinning for decades, and if the Greenland ice sheet is melting today--at atmospheric CO2 levels below 380 ppm--what exactly will a stabilization at 450 ppm accomplish?

Perhaps it will save the antarctic ice sheet, and perhaps not.

I would argue that nothing focuses the mind like an impossible goal. Whether or not you actually attain that goal is immaterial.

]]> Comment #20 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:34:25 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/20 Global Deluders Go Off The Scale!


How about (c) -- CO2 doesn't matter at all.

My Log


]]> Global Deluders Go Off The Scale!


How about (c) -- CO2 doesn't matter at all.

My Log


]]> Comment #21 by Kit Stolz http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:31:52 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/21 tipping points vs. points of no return

Despite my respect for the talented Mr. McKibben, his piece seems to me to confuse the point that Hansen made at the AGU. In response to comments from within the scientific community, Hansen reframed the concept of tipping points to make clear that when we as a species pushed the levels of atmospheric CO2 past 300-350 ppm (depending on the category; ice sheets, shifting of climactic zones, etc.) we committed the planet to long-term changes. He then went on to make clear that we are approaching points of no return, in which those changes become irreversible and (most likely) ruinous, as climactic feedbacks accelerate, and overwhelm our attempts to stabilize the biosphere.

Why McKibben obscured this point I do not understand. Hansen's distinction seems very useful, and plenty easy to follow, both scientifically and in English. I blogged about it here on Grist earlier, but for another longer version take a look at a piece from a National Geographic reporter at the same press conference, who makes the same point with some extra quotes.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071214-ti ...

]]> tipping points vs. points of no return

Despite my respect for the talented Mr. McKibben, his piece seems to me to confuse the point that Hansen made at the AGU. In response to comments from within the scientific community, Hansen reframed the concept of tipping points to make clear that when we as a species pushed the levels of atmospheric CO2 past 300-350 ppm (depending on the category; ice sheets, shifting of climactic zones, etc.) we committed the planet to long-term changes. He then went on to make clear that we are approaching points of no return, in which those changes become irreversible and (most likely) ruinous, as climactic feedbacks accelerate, and overwhelm our attempts to stabilize the biosphere.

Why McKibben obscured this point I do not understand. Hansen's distinction seems very useful, and plenty easy to follow, both scientifically and in English. I blogged about it here on Grist earlier, but for another longer version take a look at a piece from a National Geographic reporter at the same press conference, who makes the same point with some extra quotes.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071214-ti ...

]]> Comment #22 by LegumeSam http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:41:24 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/22 A trip to Venus!

CO2 doesn't matter at all.

Perhaps Exxon/Mobil can fund the next Venus expedition for those who believe that 90 atmospheres of CO2 won't matter at all...

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> A trip to Venus!

CO2 doesn't matter at all.

Perhaps Exxon/Mobil can fund the next Venus expedition for those who believe that 90 atmospheres of CO2 won't matter at all...

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

]]> Comment #23 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/ Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:52:26 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/parting-company-with-mckibben-and-maybe-hansen/23 Corporate feudalism

I believe you are talking about corporate feudalsim Sam.  

I make the distinction between corporate feudalsim, ie. monopoly capitalsim (not capitalism at all) in which corporations control markets and government policy....  and real competitive capitalism, the type still practised by many small and medium sized businesses all over the planet.

Real competition spurs innovation.  It has real risk and reward for capital invested.  

That could pull us out of this downward spiral, environmental and financial.  But monopolies control goverment policy, which used to reign in the tendency of huge conglomerates to destroy real competitive capitalsim.  As Walmart, for instance, destroys local businesses, retailers and manufacturing.

Imagine local small businesses assembling and installing solar and wind and biogas equipment in every local community.  And converting used cars to plugin hybrids.  now that would revive our economy.  Instead of all that local money going to big oil and coal and gas corps, it would go to local businesses.

This is why the corporatistas passed a bill through congress to allow the halliburtons to gobble up local utility companies.  To monopolize the grid, in case it becomes renewable, and to prevent that renewable distributed grid from being built for as long as possible..

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Corporate feudalism

I believe you are talking about corporate feudalsim Sam.  

I make the distinction between corporate feudalsim, ie. monopoly capitalsim (not capitalism at all) in which corporations control markets and government policy....  and real competitive capitalism, the type still practised by many small and medium sized businesses all over the planet.

Real competition spurs innovation.  It has real risk and reward for capital invested.  

That could pull us out of this downward spiral, environmental and financial.  But monopolies control goverment policy, which used to reign in the tendency of huge conglomerates to destroy real competitive capitalsim.  As Walmart, for instance, destroys local businesses, retailers and manufacturing.

Imagine local small businesses assembling and installing solar and wind and biogas equipment in every local community.  And converting used cars to plugin hybrids.  now that would revive our economy.  Instead of all that local money going to big oil and coal and gas corps, it would go to local businesses.

This is why the corporatistas passed a bill through congress to allow the halliburtons to gobble up local utility companies.  To monopolize the grid, in case it becomes renewable, and to prevent that renewable distributed grid from being built for as long as possible..

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]>