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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for If organic food is so popular, why are so few farms transitioning their land?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by solarkismet</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:30:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>not technically &quot;organic&quot;</strong></p><p>I wonder how much of the net gain/loss of organic farms is either:</p><p>
a) Small organic farms find established local buyers &nbsp;and purchase sources and don't need to keep up organic certification on an official basis?</p><p>
b) Small organic farms that never get certified but are essentially organic?</p>
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				<p><strong>not technically &quot;organic&quot;</strong></p><p>I wonder how much of the net gain/loss of organic farms is either:</p><p>
a) Small organic farms find established local buyers &nbsp;and purchase sources and don't need to keep up organic certification on an official basis?</p><p>
b) Small organic farms that never get certified but are essentially organic?</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by danb635</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:03:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>protecting farmland from chemicals</strong></p><p>I note the dismay in the author's writing when he reports that we in the U.S. have become a net importer of organic food. I wish to point out that the environmental benefits that accrue to the environment from the raising of organic food do not stop at the U.S. border. If we wish to purchase these benefits where they can do the most environmental good, we should encourage organic farming where it does the most good in terms of species saved or acres of environment protected, etc. I don't know if these areas would be in the United States or not, but the environmental benefits are achieved when demand for organic food increases, not when the acres of organic farm increase in one particular country.</p><p>
Beyond that, some third world countries allow much more damaging pesticides and conditions of use than than do most developed countries so that encouraging organic in those third world countries might reap greater environmental benefit than encouraging organic in Europe or the U.S. </p><p>
Both of the above 2 arguments also apply when the concern is focused on human health instead of environmental protection.</p>
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				<p><strong>protecting farmland from chemicals</strong></p><p>I note the dismay in the author's writing when he reports that we in the U.S. have become a net importer of organic food. I wish to point out that the environmental benefits that accrue to the environment from the raising of organic food do not stop at the U.S. border. If we wish to purchase these benefits where they can do the most environmental good, we should encourage organic farming where it does the most good in terms of species saved or acres of environment protected, etc. I don't know if these areas would be in the United States or not, but the environmental benefits are achieved when demand for organic food increases, not when the acres of organic farm increase in one particular country.</p><p>
Beyond that, some third world countries allow much more damaging pesticides and conditions of use than than do most developed countries so that encouraging organic in those third world countries might reap greater environmental benefit than encouraging organic in Europe or the U.S. </p><p>
Both of the above 2 arguments also apply when the concern is focused on human health instead of environmental protection.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by solacdncs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 06:10:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>gee i wonder?</strong></p><p>Considering that the government subsidizes lots of farmers to not grow certain crops, and to grow others in conventional and factory farm type ways, I am wondering just what kinds of farm subsidies organic farmers are getting? </p><p>
I would bet and I am not a gambling sort of girl, that they get little or no money for subsidizing a transition to organic or for being organic, or for the kinds of crops they do or don't grow. In order to form a more perfect, balanced and sustainable culture don't we need to help it along a little? </p><p>
I would venture to guess that there is no great farm subsidy movement out there with powerful lobbyists intact fighting tooth and nail for some tax dollars toward organic farming. And can it really be called organic farming with all of the pollutants in the water and air? Sure, we might have less on an organic tomato, but there is still heavy metal playing on more than the radio...it is wafting down on those lovely little plants and also through our windows! Not to mention, the plants and all that consume them are soaking up those unfiltered antidepressants out of the water table. And we wonder why everyone has gone mad!</p><p>
Blessings, JJ</p>
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				<p><strong>gee i wonder?</strong></p><p>Considering that the government subsidizes lots of farmers to not grow certain crops, and to grow others in conventional and factory farm type ways, I am wondering just what kinds of farm subsidies organic farmers are getting? </p><p>
I would bet and I am not a gambling sort of girl, that they get little or no money for subsidizing a transition to organic or for being organic, or for the kinds of crops they do or don't grow. In order to form a more perfect, balanced and sustainable culture don't we need to help it along a little? </p><p>
I would venture to guess that there is no great farm subsidy movement out there with powerful lobbyists intact fighting tooth and nail for some tax dollars toward organic farming. And can it really be called organic farming with all of the pollutants in the water and air? Sure, we might have less on an organic tomato, but there is still heavy metal playing on more than the radio...it is wafting down on those lovely little plants and also through our windows! Not to mention, the plants and all that consume them are soaking up those unfiltered antidepressants out of the water table. And we wonder why everyone has gone mad!</p><p>
Blessings, JJ</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by bharshaw</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:32:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Apples and Oranges</strong></p><p>You're really comparing apples (dollars of sales) to oranges (acres of production). Even in California, most of your acres are going to be field crops, like cotton and rice, where there's little demand for organics. &nbsp;A better comparison would be to compare the percentage of organic fruits and vegetables sales and the acreage of organic fruits and vegetables.</p>
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				<p><strong>Apples and Oranges</strong></p><p>You're really comparing apples (dollars of sales) to oranges (acres of production). Even in California, most of your acres are going to be field crops, like cotton and rice, where there's little demand for organics. &nbsp;A better comparison would be to compare the percentage of organic fruits and vegetables sales and the acreage of organic fruits and vegetables.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by MaryAnn Brewer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 08:54:59 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Organic Farming</strong></p><p>IMAGINE<br>
All the people, sharing all the work, I mean world. &nbsp;Hmmm</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Organic Farming</strong></p><p>IMAGINE<br>
All the people, sharing all the work, I mean world. &nbsp;Hmmm</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by RanchoVerde</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:57:34 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Making money on an organic farm</strong></p><p>The organic farmer gets a minuscule share of the price of a loaf of bread. The solution to this is for the organic farmer to become a producer of food, not just organic agricultural commodities. But the local zoning people tell me that if I grind my grain into flour and bake bread with the flour that these are "industrial processes" and that they will take whatever action it takes to stop me. I cannot pay the taxes on the farm with what I can get from selling organic grain. But I can take in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year if I sell the grain as bread. And the farm can support more people working to bake bread than with only growing grain. I feel I am up against a brick wall in my effort to make progress.</p>
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				<p><strong>Making money on an organic farm</strong></p><p>The organic farmer gets a minuscule share of the price of a loaf of bread. The solution to this is for the organic farmer to become a producer of food, not just organic agricultural commodities. But the local zoning people tell me that if I grind my grain into flour and bake bread with the flour that these are "industrial processes" and that they will take whatever action it takes to stop me. I cannot pay the taxes on the farm with what I can get from selling organic grain. But I can take in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year if I sell the grain as bread. And the farm can support more people working to bake bread than with only growing grain. I feel I am up against a brick wall in my effort to make progress.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by jcbflowers</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:33:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>No thank you to chinese food</strong></p><p>Is'nt there something inherently wrong with eating food that was grown in China when you live in say New York? Mass produced "organic" is missing the point. Jane Goodall had a good term for organics grown by major corporations like Kraft--shallow organic. They may not be spraying pesticides or using chemical fertilizers but they are still mono-cropping and using wasteful irrigation systems. Buy local and do what makes sense. Deep organic builds fertility and sustains land and people.</p>
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				<p><strong>No thank you to chinese food</strong></p><p>Is'nt there something inherently wrong with eating food that was grown in China when you live in say New York? Mass produced "organic" is missing the point. Jane Goodall had a good term for organics grown by major corporations like Kraft--shallow organic. They may not be spraying pesticides or using chemical fertilizers but they are still mono-cropping and using wasteful irrigation systems. Buy local and do what makes sense. Deep organic builds fertility and sustains land and people.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Stephanie Ogburn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 23:56:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Organic Certification Rates<p>In response to Solar Kismet, at least in Colorado and, I would bet, across the country, "a) Small organic farms...don't need to keep up organic certification on an official basis" is definitely true. &nbsp;The number of organic-practicing farms (I call them ecological farmers) in the country is probably triple the number of organically-certified farms. <p>
In both Colorado and Virginia, the cost for certification rose by as much as 10 times (from something like $100 to something like $1000, depending on the farmer) for many farmers who were once organically certified. &nbsp;These two states in particular put a lot of the costs back onto the producers, which explains the sudden drop in participation in both Colorado and VA post-2002 (see the USDA stats on this at <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/organic/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/organic/ and look at the data for certified organic farm operations from 1992-2005) <p>
Remember, certification is a proxy for trust--small scale producers selling face-to-face essentially don't need it, although many small true believers remain certified. &nbsp;<p>
On the larger point, until the U.S. government ponies up some cash to encourage and support the conversion to organic, I don't think the chances for conversion are all that great. &nbsp;The point about what is growing most in organic--processed foods--and that it is, of course, cheaper to import organic from Chile and China does not bode well for the large-scale transition. &nbsp;Which, at this point, leaves the movement caught in an interesting paradox: It's grown big enough to "sell out" in many people's views, but, at least in the U.S., has not actually grown big enough to be making a significant difference in the ecological impact of the still widespread industrial-style agriculture US producers practice. &nbsp;</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Organic Certification Rates<p>In response to Solar Kismet, at least in Colorado and, I would bet, across the country, "a) Small organic farms...don't need to keep up organic certification on an official basis" is definitely true. &nbsp;The number of organic-practicing farms (I call them ecological farmers) in the country is probably triple the number of organically-certified farms. <p>
In both Colorado and Virginia, the cost for certification rose by as much as 10 times (from something like $100 to something like $1000, depending on the farmer) for many farmers who were once organically certified. &nbsp;These two states in particular put a lot of the costs back onto the producers, which explains the sudden drop in participation in both Colorado and VA post-2002 (see the USDA stats on this at <a href="http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/organic/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/organic/ and look at the data for certified organic farm operations from 1992-2005) <p>
Remember, certification is a proxy for trust--small scale producers selling face-to-face essentially don't need it, although many small true believers remain certified. &nbsp;<p>
On the larger point, until the U.S. government ponies up some cash to encourage and support the conversion to organic, I don't think the chances for conversion are all that great. &nbsp;The point about what is growing most in organic--processed foods--and that it is, of course, cheaper to import organic from Chile and China does not bode well for the large-scale transition. &nbsp;Which, at this point, leaves the movement caught in an interesting paradox: It's grown big enough to "sell out" in many people's views, but, at least in the U.S., has not actually grown big enough to be making a significant difference in the ecological impact of the still widespread industrial-style agriculture US producers practice. &nbsp;</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by LeadByExample</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 00:40:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Organic Imports</strong></p><p>I have to ask the question, just how organic are the products being imported from China, Mexico and other countries, especially imported grains. How rigorous is the organic inspection process in China? The treading water of organic production in the U.S. seems to coincide with the USDA becoming involved, many producers dropped organic certification at this time. The constant bombardment of the organic standards by &nbsp;giant "organic" agri-business could likely spell doom, large organic dairies resisting grazing requirements is but one example.</p>
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				<p><strong>Organic Imports</strong></p><p>I have to ask the question, just how organic are the products being imported from China, Mexico and other countries, especially imported grains. How rigorous is the organic inspection process in China? The treading water of organic production in the U.S. seems to coincide with the USDA becoming involved, many producers dropped organic certification at this time. The constant bombardment of the organic standards by &nbsp;giant "organic" agri-business could likely spell doom, large organic dairies resisting grazing requirements is but one example.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Roz Cummins</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:04:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Alternate Certification/Farmers Pledge<p>Tom mentions that some organic farmers are no longer pursuing organic certification. In talking to farmers who are no longer being certified (but who continue to farm organically) I have found that this is due to a combination of the expense of certification and also to the fact that some organic farmers feel that organic certification may now be less meaningful than it once was, given that large industries are becoming involved in organic farming. I see this as a philosophically motivated, as well as economic, decision. (I have not yet reached my own conclusion about this topic as I am still researching its consequences and implications.)<p>
Some farmers are seeking an alternative to organic certification. An example of this is The Farmers Pledge, which is, in essence, pledging to continue to employ organic practices and be open to inspection by fellow organic farmers, but not - as I understand it - the expensive inspection process necessary for regular organic certification by an official certifying organization. You can find out more about this by going to the NOFA (Northeast Organic Farmers Association) website: <a href="http://www.nofany.org/dbapplet/fpregistry.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nofany.org/dbapplet/fpregistry.html<br>
&nbsp;</br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alternate Certification/Farmers Pledge<p>Tom mentions that some organic farmers are no longer pursuing organic certification. In talking to farmers who are no longer being certified (but who continue to farm organically) I have found that this is due to a combination of the expense of certification and also to the fact that some organic farmers feel that organic certification may now be less meaningful than it once was, given that large industries are becoming involved in organic farming. I see this as a philosophically motivated, as well as economic, decision. (I have not yet reached my own conclusion about this topic as I am still researching its consequences and implications.)<p>
Some farmers are seeking an alternative to organic certification. An example of this is The Farmers Pledge, which is, in essence, pledging to continue to employ organic practices and be open to inspection by fellow organic farmers, but not - as I understand it - the expensive inspection process necessary for regular organic certification by an official certifying organization. You can find out more about this by going to the NOFA (Northeast Organic Farmers Association) website: <a href="http://www.nofany.org/dbapplet/fpregistry.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nofany.org/dbapplet/fpregistry.html<br>
&nbsp;</br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Stephanie Ogburn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:37:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Alternate certifications<p>Yes, and people are also going Certified Naturally Grown, <a href="http://www.naturallygrown.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.naturallygrown.org/ , for a lot of the same reasons Roz mentions. &nbsp;Local labeling systems are also cropping up around the country. &nbsp;In Colorado where I do my reseach, the local farm organization is trying to develop its own label that will connote both locality and growing style.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alternate certifications<p>Yes, and people are also going Certified Naturally Grown, <a href="http://www.naturallygrown.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.naturallygrown.org/ , for a lot of the same reasons Roz mentions. &nbsp;Local labeling systems are also cropping up around the country. &nbsp;In Colorado where I do my reseach, the local farm organization is trying to develop its own label that will connote both locality and growing style.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Stephanie Ogburn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:38:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Research</strong></p><p>"research," that is.</p>
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				<p><strong>Research</strong></p><p>"research," that is.</p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by PDXOutdoors</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 05:45:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>Labeling &amp; &quot;Organic&quot;</strong></p><p>I have always thought that the label "organic" was fundamentally inaccurate and unhelpful. &nbsp;The two main concerns that people who tout and buy organic food are:</p><p>
The First main concern is Consumer Health - Pesticides are bad for you, as are other chemicals that enter into or are present on foods grown in large industrial or monocrop productions. &nbsp;Organic foods are grown with time-tested and (mostly) chemical free methods, and are both absent of actively harmful agents, but also tend to be, as a result of a more hands-on practice, more nutritious than their conventional counterparts.</p><p>
Something to think about here is the effect that buying less processed and more local foods has on consumer health. &nbsp;First, and most saliently, due to the shorter field to store distances, the foods can be picked closer to their natural ripeness and therefore taste better and have more nutrient value. &nbsp;Second, less food-miles equals less fuel burned equals less pollution in your local air and water. &nbsp;Third, foods need not be coated or treated with necessary agents for long-distance shipping and pest-control in such conditions.</p><p>
The Second main concern is the overall environmental impact of the use of pesticides, oil-based fertilizers, and massive monocultures. &nbsp;These 'conventional' practices are widely seen as unsustainable and unhealthy for the ecosystem and us in the long term. I'll include in this concerns (very important ones) about long-term soil degredation. &nbsp;On sort of a tangent, soil health is incredibly important and the main reason to question biofuels as a large-scale option for energy.</p><p>
The impact of food-miles to this overall concern cannot be overstated. &nbsp;The overall negative impact of an organic tomato shipped 3500 miles from Southern California to NYC, versus a conventional tomato grown in a hothouse in upstate NY and shipped 200 miles - there's a real argument to be made for supporting even conventional or at the least semi-conventional (Naturally Grown or other alternative labeling) local farmers over the distant "Organic" farms. &nbsp;Supporting local farms also has the long-term benefit of strengthening and diversifying the local food economy, which will be incredibly important when gas is $10 or even $5 a gallon.<br>
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				<p><strong>Labeling &amp; &quot;Organic&quot;</strong></p><p>I have always thought that the label "organic" was fundamentally inaccurate and unhelpful. &nbsp;The two main concerns that people who tout and buy organic food are:</p><p>
The First main concern is Consumer Health - Pesticides are bad for you, as are other chemicals that enter into or are present on foods grown in large industrial or monocrop productions. &nbsp;Organic foods are grown with time-tested and (mostly) chemical free methods, and are both absent of actively harmful agents, but also tend to be, as a result of a more hands-on practice, more nutritious than their conventional counterparts.</p><p>
Something to think about here is the effect that buying less processed and more local foods has on consumer health. &nbsp;First, and most saliently, due to the shorter field to store distances, the foods can be picked closer to their natural ripeness and therefore taste better and have more nutrient value. &nbsp;Second, less food-miles equals less fuel burned equals less pollution in your local air and water. &nbsp;Third, foods need not be coated or treated with necessary agents for long-distance shipping and pest-control in such conditions.</p><p>
The Second main concern is the overall environmental impact of the use of pesticides, oil-based fertilizers, and massive monocultures. &nbsp;These 'conventional' practices are widely seen as unsustainable and unhealthy for the ecosystem and us in the long term. I'll include in this concerns (very important ones) about long-term soil degredation. &nbsp;On sort of a tangent, soil health is incredibly important and the main reason to question biofuels as a large-scale option for energy.</p><p>
The impact of food-miles to this overall concern cannot be overstated. &nbsp;The overall negative impact of an organic tomato shipped 3500 miles from Southern California to NYC, versus a conventional tomato grown in a hothouse in upstate NY and shipped 200 miles - there's a real argument to be made for supporting even conventional or at the least semi-conventional (Naturally Grown or other alternative labeling) local farmers over the distant "Organic" farms. &nbsp;Supporting local farms also has the long-term benefit of strengthening and diversifying the local food economy, which will be incredibly important when gas is $10 or even $5 a gallon.<br>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Tom Philpott</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:40:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Great comments</strong></p><p>I agree with Roz that many farms that drop out of organic certification aren't dropping out of organic farming -- they're just opting out of all the paperwork involved with maintaining certification.</p><p>
Likewise, many new organic farms -- like my own Maverick Farms, now entering its 4th growing season -- don't dive right into certification; it's hard enough to farm w/o having to go through a whole bureaucratic process. </p><p>
Moreover, when you farm on a small enough scale that you're selling directly to the people who cook and eat your food, there's no real incentive to certification. At farms like Maverick, the people who buy our vegetables are our certifiers -- they can come by and see exactly what we're doing in the field. Certification makes sense when you sell to a distributor or other middle man -- it literally commodifies your growing practices so they can draw a price premium in a market of anonymous products. </p><p>
But here's the thing: While projects like Maverick and thousands of other small-scale, uncertified organic farms across the country do add up to a significant chunk of food production, they probably don't sum to enough acreage to much change the numbers cited above. </p><p>
If we really want to make a dent in the huge amounts of poisons entering our soils -- as well as reestablish truly robust local and regional food systems -- we'll have to think of ways to convince mid-size farmers to convert to organic methods. And its precisely that middle of the farming game -- between niche direct-makerting operations like mine and the mega farms with economies of scale (and, often, subsidies) -- that probably faces the most vexing economic conditions. And that's a topic for a future Victual Reality. </p>
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				<p><strong>Great comments</strong></p><p>I agree with Roz that many farms that drop out of organic certification aren't dropping out of organic farming -- they're just opting out of all the paperwork involved with maintaining certification.</p><p>
Likewise, many new organic farms -- like my own Maverick Farms, now entering its 4th growing season -- don't dive right into certification; it's hard enough to farm w/o having to go through a whole bureaucratic process. </p><p>
Moreover, when you farm on a small enough scale that you're selling directly to the people who cook and eat your food, there's no real incentive to certification. At farms like Maverick, the people who buy our vegetables are our certifiers -- they can come by and see exactly what we're doing in the field. Certification makes sense when you sell to a distributor or other middle man -- it literally commodifies your growing practices so they can draw a price premium in a market of anonymous products. </p><p>
But here's the thing: While projects like Maverick and thousands of other small-scale, uncertified organic farms across the country do add up to a significant chunk of food production, they probably don't sum to enough acreage to much change the numbers cited above. </p><p>
If we really want to make a dent in the huge amounts of poisons entering our soils -- as well as reestablish truly robust local and regional food systems -- we'll have to think of ways to convince mid-size farmers to convert to organic methods. And its precisely that middle of the farming game -- between niche direct-makerting operations like mine and the mega farms with economies of scale (and, often, subsidies) -- that probably faces the most vexing economic conditions. And that's a topic for a future Victual Reality. </p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:28:43 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Eating smart, eating local</strong></p><p>Thanks -- good article, good posts, good discussion here!</p><p>
This all reinforces, for me, the importance of supporting local, modestly-scaled farms via our local farmers markets and/or other mechanisms. &nbsp;Even those farms that aren't, technically, 'certified organic' typically are practicing (as noted above) more sustainable and environmentally-friendly land management than mega-farms halfway across the country. &nbsp;</p><p>
And even if they are using the occasional spray or chemical fertilizer on their crops, they are not transporting your lovely cantaloupe or strawberry by way of jumbo jet some 5,000 miles to your local Whole Foods Market. &nbsp;(C'mon, how sustainable is that?)</p><p>
There is a wonderful discussion of these kinds of food issues (industrial agriculture vs. industrial organic vs. local sustainable farming) in the recently-published book <b>The Omnivore's Dilemma</b>, for any of you who haven't already discovered that well-written and engaging book. &nbsp;(However, given the level of discussion here, I suspect that many of you already have discovered it ...)</p>
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				<p><strong>Eating smart, eating local</strong></p><p>Thanks -- good article, good posts, good discussion here!</p><p>
This all reinforces, for me, the importance of supporting local, modestly-scaled farms via our local farmers markets and/or other mechanisms. &nbsp;Even those farms that aren't, technically, 'certified organic' typically are practicing (as noted above) more sustainable and environmentally-friendly land management than mega-farms halfway across the country. &nbsp;</p><p>
And even if they are using the occasional spray or chemical fertilizer on their crops, they are not transporting your lovely cantaloupe or strawberry by way of jumbo jet some 5,000 miles to your local Whole Foods Market. &nbsp;(C'mon, how sustainable is that?)</p><p>
There is a wonderful discussion of these kinds of food issues (industrial agriculture vs. industrial organic vs. local sustainable farming) in the recently-published book <b>The Omnivore's Dilemma</b>, for any of you who haven't already discovered that well-written and engaging book. &nbsp;(However, given the level of discussion here, I suspect that many of you already have discovered it ...)</p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by Stephanie Ogburn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 04:54:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/16</guid>
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				<p><strong>Middle-sized farming</strong></p><p>Julie Guthman in her book Agrarian Dreams which is about organic in California and how it has moved toward an agribusiness style, discusses most of the points Pollan makes in his book a really in-depth way with lots of research and data. &nbsp;Personally, I think it is the best recent book published on organic in the U.S., and Pollan, I imagine, has drawn a lot of his thinking from people like her and other folks at UC Santa Cruz studying alternative ag. &nbsp;</p><p>
Guthman's book is academic but very readible, and another good book on organic called Organic Inc., is another quick read, by Samuel Frommertz (sp?), that talks a bit in some chapters about the organic movement's internal debates. &nbsp;So there are some more reading suggestions! </p><p>
I am VERY interested in the potential of middle-sized farming, and here at Yale where I study myself and a few other researchers (mostly geographers, some anthropologists and political scientists) are talking about this idea of the mid-sized farm and what its potential may be. &nbsp;Guthman writes about this some in her book. Small is beautiful but mid-sized might be functional and actually more revolutionary in some ways. &nbsp;I look forward to seeing what Philpott has to say about this, and think that both in the academic and activist spheres mid-sized is the next big thing to be discussed, and hopefully a good direction for the movement to go in.</p>
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				<p><strong>Middle-sized farming</strong></p><p>Julie Guthman in her book Agrarian Dreams which is about organic in California and how it has moved toward an agribusiness style, discusses most of the points Pollan makes in his book a really in-depth way with lots of research and data. &nbsp;Personally, I think it is the best recent book published on organic in the U.S., and Pollan, I imagine, has drawn a lot of his thinking from people like her and other folks at UC Santa Cruz studying alternative ag. &nbsp;</p><p>
Guthman's book is academic but very readible, and another good book on organic called Organic Inc., is another quick read, by Samuel Frommertz (sp?), that talks a bit in some chapters about the organic movement's internal debates. &nbsp;So there are some more reading suggestions! </p><p>
I am VERY interested in the potential of middle-sized farming, and here at Yale where I study myself and a few other researchers (mostly geographers, some anthropologists and political scientists) are talking about this idea of the mid-sized farm and what its potential may be. &nbsp;Guthman writes about this some in her book. Small is beautiful but mid-sized might be functional and actually more revolutionary in some ways. &nbsp;I look forward to seeing what Philpott has to say about this, and think that both in the academic and activist spheres mid-sized is the next big thing to be discussed, and hopefully a good direction for the movement to go in.</p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by Tom Philpott</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:17:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/17</guid>
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				<p><strong>Stephanie,<p><br>
i'll check out the Guthman book, thanks. Be sure and check out <a href="http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/04/2.5.04/ag_of_middle.html" rel="nofollow">Fred Kirschenmann's work on "ag of the middle."</a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Stephanie,<p><br>
i'll check out the Guthman book, thanks. Be sure and check out <a href="http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/04/2.5.04/ag_of_middle.html" rel="nofollow">Fred Kirschenmann's work on "ag of the middle."</a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #18 by Sean Jones</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:22:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/18</guid>
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				<p><strong>Farming with the Wild<p>I can recommend a good book for those interested in 'beyond organic' and dealing with the issues you have raised here: "Farming with the Wild" by Daniel Imhoff. &nbsp;I think everyone here agrees that just fulfilling organic registration requirements does not meet the objective of sustainable land practices, but at least it moves us in the right direction.<p>
Another issue is that major retailers like Whole Foods are growing and cannot make the small supplier network efficient so turn to larger suppliers. &nbsp;This is clearly an opportunity for someone to create an efficient local food supplier supply chain for major retailers. &nbsp;Tom talked about the issue last August, "Eatin' Good in the Neighborhood".<p>
<a href="http://www.grist.org/comments/food/2006/08/16/local/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grist.org/comments/food/2006/08/16/local/index ...</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Farming with the Wild<p>I can recommend a good book for those interested in 'beyond organic' and dealing with the issues you have raised here: "Farming with the Wild" by Daniel Imhoff. &nbsp;I think everyone here agrees that just fulfilling organic registration requirements does not meet the objective of sustainable land practices, but at least it moves us in the right direction.<p>
Another issue is that major retailers like Whole Foods are growing and cannot make the small supplier network efficient so turn to larger suppliers. &nbsp;This is clearly an opportunity for someone to create an efficient local food supplier supply chain for major retailers. &nbsp;Tom talked about the issue last August, "Eatin' Good in the Neighborhood".<p>
<a href="http://www.grist.org/comments/food/2006/08/16/local/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grist.org/comments/food/2006/08/16/local/index ...</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #19 by barthanderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2007 23:38:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/19</guid>
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				<p><strong>Transition = Training</strong></p><p>&gt;&gt; "According to the USDA, the U.S. spends about $7 million annually supporting organic agriculture -- and that encompasses research, support for transition, everything."</p><p>
Right on the money (and lack thereof). Increasing organic acreage can't be a consumer-driven effort alone. The 2007 Farm Bill needs to address transitioning to organic ag. </p><p>
But "increasing acreage" really means increasing the number of organic farmers. And that means training them how to farm organically, not just giving them the money to do it. As Faye Jones, director of Midwest Organic and Sustainable Education Services (MOSES) has put forth, Farm Bill dollars have to be targeted at training systems like MOSES's Help Wanted:Organic Farmers and Land Stewardship Project's Farm Beginnings program.</p><p>
Yes, those programs need more funding. But if we're going to increase organic acreage, we need more of those programs. Lots more. </p>
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				<p><strong>Transition = Training</strong></p><p>&gt;&gt; "According to the USDA, the U.S. spends about $7 million annually supporting organic agriculture -- and that encompasses research, support for transition, everything."</p><p>
Right on the money (and lack thereof). Increasing organic acreage can't be a consumer-driven effort alone. The 2007 Farm Bill needs to address transitioning to organic ag. </p><p>
But "increasing acreage" really means increasing the number of organic farmers. And that means training them how to farm organically, not just giving them the money to do it. As Faye Jones, director of Midwest Organic and Sustainable Education Services (MOSES) has put forth, Farm Bill dollars have to be targeted at training systems like MOSES's Help Wanted:Organic Farmers and Land Stewardship Project's Farm Beginnings program.</p><p>
Yes, those programs need more funding. But if we're going to increase organic acreage, we need more of those programs. Lots more. </p>
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            <title>Comment #20 by VLipski</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 03:27:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/20</guid>
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				<p><strong>Organic farming</strong></p><p>I read in the current issue of Vegetarian Times that the 2006 Farm Bill contained a rider allowing the use of FIVE HUNDRED additional substances - read chemicals - during the production of organic foods. &nbsp;(The number, prior to the passage of this ill-intended piece of legislation, was 38.) Since organic no longer means organic, does any of this really matter?</p>
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				<p><strong>Organic farming</strong></p><p>I read in the current issue of Vegetarian Times that the 2006 Farm Bill contained a rider allowing the use of FIVE HUNDRED additional substances - read chemicals - during the production of organic foods. &nbsp;(The number, prior to the passage of this ill-intended piece of legislation, was 38.) Since organic no longer means organic, does any of this really matter?</p>
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            <title>Comment #21 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:57:52 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/organic2/21</guid>
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				<p><strong>very good article</strong></p><p>I think the key is that the premiums are in the processed food and unfortunately the meat and dairy, which have the weakest organic requirements. There is also no doubt that the imports, most of which are likely not truly organic, are cutting into market share. Another issue is risk- farmers may take a small hit during the transition and many are not willing to do this especially if they are unsure of how the market will develop. </p><p>
Solution?</p><p>
Focus on the core of the problem- the ag subsidies, the energy subsidies, the water subsidies, and tax ag pollution- this is a long-time fix, but the only one that will lead to long-term transitions to more sustainable agriculture.</p><p>
J.S.</p>
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				<p><strong>very good article</strong></p><p>I think the key is that the premiums are in the processed food and unfortunately the meat and dairy, which have the weakest organic requirements. There is also no doubt that the imports, most of which are likely not truly organic, are cutting into market share. Another issue is risk- farmers may take a small hit during the transition and many are not willing to do this especially if they are unsure of how the market will develop. </p><p>
Solution?</p><p>
Focus on the core of the problem- the ag subsidies, the energy subsidies, the water subsidies, and tax ag pollution- this is a long-time fix, but the only one that will lead to long-term transitions to more sustainable agriculture.</p><p>
J.S.</p>
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