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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Orangutans heading toward extinction]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:02:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Correction</strong></p><p>I would argue that it's incorrect to say that "illegal logging and palm oil production are the main culprits". &nbsp;Illegal logging and palm-oil production are more like the main symptoms.</p><p>
The main culprit is overpopulation, and mankind's insatiable demand for more and more resources -- for example more logs and more palm oil.</p><p>
Until there are fewer of us, there will inevitably have to be fewer of almost everything else in our biosphere, including orangatangs. &nbsp;That's just the way things work on a finite planet with finite space and finite solar energy input.</p>
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				<p><strong>Correction</strong></p><p>I would argue that it's incorrect to say that "illegal logging and palm oil production are the main culprits". &nbsp;Illegal logging and palm-oil production are more like the main symptoms.</p><p>
The main culprit is overpopulation, and mankind's insatiable demand for more and more resources -- for example more logs and more palm oil.</p><p>
Until there are fewer of us, there will inevitably have to be fewer of almost everything else in our biosphere, including orangatangs. &nbsp;That's just the way things work on a finite planet with finite space and finite solar energy input.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 07:13:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>What About Overconsumption Don?</strong></p><p>It's not just that there are too many of us, it's also that about half of all humans consume too much individually, including things we should not be consuming at all. &nbsp;Traditional cultures existed for millennia without killing trees or by killing so few that it was unnoticeable. &nbsp;Logging is not a legitimate activity, is ecologically immoral, and is not sustainable to any significant degree (i.e., unless the number of trees killed is minuscule, you will eventually destroy the forest).</p>
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				<p><strong>What About Overconsumption Don?</strong></p><p>It's not just that there are too many of us, it's also that about half of all humans consume too much individually, including things we should not be consuming at all. &nbsp;Traditional cultures existed for millennia without killing trees or by killing so few that it was unnoticeable. &nbsp;Logging is not a legitimate activity, is ecologically immoral, and is not sustainable to any significant degree (i.e., unless the number of trees killed is minuscule, you will eventually destroy the forest).</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 07:51:29 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Consume this</strong></p><p>You may want to inform the Japanese that logging is not sustainable! &nbsp;They've been doing it at a rather intense level for about 1,000 years longer than we have. &nbsp;See the chapter in Jared Diamond's book 'Collapse'.</p><p>
Yeah, yeah, I know: if we just reduced our consumption. &nbsp;But, #1, I don't generally see people voluntarily reducing their consumption, either in the USA or in China or in India. &nbsp;I only see them reducing consumption when they HAVE to, due to the expense ($5.00/gal gasoline may finally kill the Hummer) or the lack of more resources (no more shark fin soup for you once we kill the last shark!)</p><p>
And #2, eventually, of course, we will all HAVE to reduce our per-capita consumption or Mother Nature will reduce our capita (population) for us; this is a non-negotiable reality when you live on a finite planet. &nbsp;</p><p>
The question is whether we will voluntarily do so before Mother Nature forces our hand. &nbsp;The signs so far are not promising. &nbsp;My point is that even if you can convince everyone on the planet to reduce their consumption by 50% (no small feat!), all your gains are for naught if the global population increases by the same amount. &nbsp;As, in fact, it is forecast to do from the year 2000 (about 6 billion) to 2050 (about 9 billion).</p><p>
I just find this basic fact ignored in most discussions here on Grist. &nbsp;News flash: all the Berkeley yuppies in the world putting compact fluorescent bulbs in their lamps won't get us very far, as long as we're still adding 150,000 humans (Eugene, Oregon's population!) <b>each day</b>.</p>
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				<p><strong>Consume this</strong></p><p>You may want to inform the Japanese that logging is not sustainable! &nbsp;They've been doing it at a rather intense level for about 1,000 years longer than we have. &nbsp;See the chapter in Jared Diamond's book 'Collapse'.</p><p>
Yeah, yeah, I know: if we just reduced our consumption. &nbsp;But, #1, I don't generally see people voluntarily reducing their consumption, either in the USA or in China or in India. &nbsp;I only see them reducing consumption when they HAVE to, due to the expense ($5.00/gal gasoline may finally kill the Hummer) or the lack of more resources (no more shark fin soup for you once we kill the last shark!)</p><p>
And #2, eventually, of course, we will all HAVE to reduce our per-capita consumption or Mother Nature will reduce our capita (population) for us; this is a non-negotiable reality when you live on a finite planet. &nbsp;</p><p>
The question is whether we will voluntarily do so before Mother Nature forces our hand. &nbsp;The signs so far are not promising. &nbsp;My point is that even if you can convince everyone on the planet to reduce their consumption by 50% (no small feat!), all your gains are for naught if the global population increases by the same amount. &nbsp;As, in fact, it is forecast to do from the year 2000 (about 6 billion) to 2050 (about 9 billion).</p><p>
I just find this basic fact ignored in most discussions here on Grist. &nbsp;News flash: all the Berkeley yuppies in the world putting compact fluorescent bulbs in their lamps won't get us very far, as long as we're still adding 150,000 humans (Eugene, Oregon's population!) <b>each day</b>.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:33:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Extinction is closer to home, too.<p>For those of us in the northeastern US, a major vertebrate species, with a remarkable life story, is probably going to go extinct within a couple of decades:<p>
<a href="http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/wildlife_conservation/imperiled_species/red_knot/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/wildlife_con ....<p>
The danger to the red knots, focused on exploitation of horseshoe crab populations in the Delaware Bay vicinity, does not seem to have anything to do with global warming. &nbsp;But why should that matter? &nbsp;Why should the plight of orangutans, with its global-warming connexion, matter more to environmentalists who read Grist, than the plight of red knots, and of horseshoe crabs?<p>
Why is the biodiversity crisis consistently a subject of minor interest in Grist?</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Extinction is closer to home, too.<p>For those of us in the northeastern US, a major vertebrate species, with a remarkable life story, is probably going to go extinct within a couple of decades:<p>
<a href="http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/wildlife_conservation/imperiled_species/red_knot/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/wildlife_con ....<p>
The danger to the red knots, focused on exploitation of horseshoe crab populations in the Delaware Bay vicinity, does not seem to have anything to do with global warming. &nbsp;But why should that matter? &nbsp;Why should the plight of orangutans, with its global-warming connexion, matter more to environmentalists who read Grist, than the plight of red knots, and of horseshoe crabs?<p>
Why is the biodiversity crisis consistently a subject of minor interest in Grist?</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:46:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/orangutan/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Japan?!</strong></p><p>Japan is one of the last places I'd use for an example of respect for the environment. &nbsp;There is very little native forest left in Japan, and old-growth native forests that remain in southwest Japan are highly fragmented. &nbsp;There's a huge difference between a tree farm and a forest. &nbsp;If by "sustainable" you merely mean sustainable for humans for awhile, then yeah, maybe Japan's logging is "sustainable." &nbsp;But it's certainly not sustainable for the forests or for those who live there. &nbsp;A proper environmental ethic would be don't kill anything you don't eat, and humans don't eat trees. &nbsp;Logging is therefore immoral, with the exception of restoration of areas where human-caused overgrowth has caused forests to be unnaturally dense.</p><p>
There's no point in obsessing on either overpopulation or overconsumption. &nbsp;They are the twin physical roots of all environmental and ecological problems, and without fixing both problems, our ecological problems will not be solved.</p>
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				<p><strong>Japan?!</strong></p><p>Japan is one of the last places I'd use for an example of respect for the environment. &nbsp;There is very little native forest left in Japan, and old-growth native forests that remain in southwest Japan are highly fragmented. &nbsp;There's a huge difference between a tree farm and a forest. &nbsp;If by "sustainable" you merely mean sustainable for humans for awhile, then yeah, maybe Japan's logging is "sustainable." &nbsp;But it's certainly not sustainable for the forests or for those who live there. &nbsp;A proper environmental ethic would be don't kill anything you don't eat, and humans don't eat trees. &nbsp;Logging is therefore immoral, with the exception of restoration of areas where human-caused overgrowth has caused forests to be unnaturally dense.</p><p>
There's no point in obsessing on either overpopulation or overconsumption. &nbsp;They are the twin physical roots of all environmental and ecological problems, and without fixing both problems, our ecological problems will not be solved.</p>
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