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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Boucher and Upton introduce bipartisan legislation to invest in carbon sequestration technology]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 05:18:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>EPRI is non-partisan?<p>That makes me very nervous. &nbsp;EPRI was set up to administer various funds from investor-owned utilities for R&amp;D in new electric technology, back in the pre-regulation days when regulated monopolies were compelled by government to put money in new technology that - due to their monopoly franchise - they would not otherwise do. &nbsp;By their charter, this makes them deeply socialist, in the worst sense of the term. &nbsp;<p>
In todays (lightly) deregulated era, their revenue sources are not quite so direct, but they are still very much an arm of the regulated utility sector. &nbsp;As such, they have never met a problem they didn't think could be solved with more R&amp;D - but nor have they ever met a problem in our electric sector that was anything but technological. &nbsp;This has a certain value to the electric industry, as it provides them with an implicit, theoretically non-partisan voice saying "Electric utilities are perfect stewards of the public interest. &nbsp;The only way they could be better would be if someone were to invent a new whiz-bang technology. &nbsp;If you give us money, maybe we can invent one!"<p>
This is not to say that they have not funded some good research through the years (including paying some of my salary back in my consulting days, when they were a regular client). &nbsp;But they are anything but non-partisan, and setting them up as a recipient of government funding smells awfully porky.<p>
You may also recall that EPRI has concluded that in a carbon constrained economy, we would <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/15/115820/296" rel="nofollow">burn more coal. &nbsp;Rigorous, they ain't.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>EPRI is non-partisan?<p>That makes me very nervous. &nbsp;EPRI was set up to administer various funds from investor-owned utilities for R&amp;D in new electric technology, back in the pre-regulation days when regulated monopolies were compelled by government to put money in new technology that - due to their monopoly franchise - they would not otherwise do. &nbsp;By their charter, this makes them deeply socialist, in the worst sense of the term. &nbsp;<p>
In todays (lightly) deregulated era, their revenue sources are not quite so direct, but they are still very much an arm of the regulated utility sector. &nbsp;As such, they have never met a problem they didn't think could be solved with more R&amp;D - but nor have they ever met a problem in our electric sector that was anything but technological. &nbsp;This has a certain value to the electric industry, as it provides them with an implicit, theoretically non-partisan voice saying "Electric utilities are perfect stewards of the public interest. &nbsp;The only way they could be better would be if someone were to invent a new whiz-bang technology. &nbsp;If you give us money, maybe we can invent one!"<p>
This is not to say that they have not funded some good research through the years (including paying some of my salary back in my consulting days, when they were a regular client). &nbsp;But they are anything but non-partisan, and setting them up as a recipient of government funding smells awfully porky.<p>
You may also recall that EPRI has concluded that in a carbon constrained economy, we would <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/15/115820/296" rel="nofollow">burn more coal. &nbsp;Rigorous, they ain't.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:50:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>if i could walk that way,</strong></p><p>i wouldn't need the talcum powder:</p><p>
"If severe emissions reduction requirements in a cap and trade system take effect before the carbon capture and storage technologies are available, the effect on coal fired utilities [in] particular would be severe,"</p><p>
GROUCHO: well that can't stand. take a note: the next person i catch acting severely will get their arms cut off!</p><p>
ZEPPO: their arms! isn't that a little severe?</p><p>
GROUCHO: no, i said the next person.</p>
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				<p><strong>if i could walk that way,</strong></p><p>i wouldn't need the talcum powder:</p><p>
"If severe emissions reduction requirements in a cap and trade system take effect before the carbon capture and storage technologies are available, the effect on coal fired utilities [in] particular would be severe,"</p><p>
GROUCHO: well that can't stand. take a note: the next person i catch acting severely will get their arms cut off!</p><p>
ZEPPO: their arms! isn't that a little severe?</p><p>
GROUCHO: no, i said the next person.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Tasermons Partner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:30:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Proof they don't care 'bout taxes...</strong></p><p>...Republicans claim to block clean-energy technology subsidies because the cost will be handed to the consumer and will thus be a "tax".</p><p>
Yet when it comes to coal, these particular congressmen seem to have no qualms 'bout havin' consumers pay their companies for research money.</p>
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				<p><strong>Proof they don't care 'bout taxes...</strong></p><p>...Republicans claim to block clean-energy technology subsidies because the cost will be handed to the consumer and will thus be a "tax".</p><p>
Yet when it comes to coal, these particular congressmen seem to have no qualms 'bout havin' consumers pay their companies for research money.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:08:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>@tasermons partner</strong></p><p>you're getting confusticated. let me explain something important.</p><p>
a "tax" -- as you call it -- is any money gathered for any purpose other than making the already rich, richer. this is because the point of democratic government, in the enlightened view, is to ensure that only people who have money, get money, and the reason this is democratic is that in a market economy, spending money is like voting, and the more you vote, the better it is for democracy; so the people who don't have much money to spend, who don't vote very often, are making democracy weaker, and don't deserve any money at all.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>@tasermons partner</strong></p><p>you're getting confusticated. let me explain something important.</p><p>
a "tax" -- as you call it -- is any money gathered for any purpose other than making the already rich, richer. this is because the point of democratic government, in the enlightened view, is to ensure that only people who have money, get money, and the reason this is democratic is that in a market economy, spending money is like voting, and the more you vote, the better it is for democracy; so the people who don't have much money to spend, who don't vote very often, are making democracy weaker, and don't deserve any money at all.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Russ</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:33:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>groucho marxism</strong></p><p>That's excellent, hapa.</p><p>
We need a term and "framing" for those who accept the severity of the aggressor as just the way things are, yet castigate the "severity" of any victim who dares fight back. (You see that everywhere in America today, this despicable moral false equivalence.)</p>
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				<p><strong>groucho marxism</strong></p><p>That's excellent, hapa.</p><p>
We need a term and "framing" for those who accept the severity of the aggressor as just the way things are, yet castigate the "severity" of any victim who dares fight back. (You see that everywhere in America today, this despicable moral false equivalence.)</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by crotchety1</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:35:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hapa</strong></p><p>Well stated Hapa:</p><p>
However the dirty little secret, never to be revealed, is that the right wing adores taxes.<br>
Where, after all, do corporate subsidies come from?<br>
Where does military spending come from?<br>
[Non sequitur follows] Just don't get me going on the "peace dividend".</p><p>
&nbsp;- Crotchety1</br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Hapa</strong></p><p>Well stated Hapa:</p><p>
However the dirty little secret, never to be revealed, is that the right wing adores taxes.<br>
Where, after all, do corporate subsidies come from?<br>
Where does military spending come from?<br>
[Non sequitur follows] Just don't get me going on the "peace dividend".</p><p>
&nbsp;- Crotchety1</br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:40:52 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Totally impracticle</strong></p><p>Why not just recycle all the old talking points the anti-renewable crowd uses? &nbsp;Against their pet projects, like CCS and coal to liquid and fuel farming and nuclear power.</p><p>
Turn it around. &nbsp;They are backing the mega expensive technologies that just will never work right.</p><p>
Kind of ironic. &nbsp;Now that renewables and conservation are proving their leadrship on cost and GHG freeing efficacey.</p><p>
Why not? &nbsp;Because we don't need propaganda, we have facts.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Totally impracticle</strong></p><p>Why not just recycle all the old talking points the anti-renewable crowd uses? &nbsp;Against their pet projects, like CCS and coal to liquid and fuel farming and nuclear power.</p><p>
Turn it around. &nbsp;They are backing the mega expensive technologies that just will never work right.</p><p>
Kind of ironic. &nbsp;Now that renewables and conservation are proving their leadrship on cost and GHG freeing efficacey.</p><p>
Why not? &nbsp;Because we don't need propaganda, we have facts.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by joebhed</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:21:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Planet needs CCS</strong></p><p>There are some no-such-thing-as-clean-coal types of comments.<br>
Head in the sand is the way I see it.<br>
VERY important to get started right away on solving carbon sequestration if we want to do anything about carbon.<br>
For those who think we can stop the use of coal by slowing down the development of technological solutions on carbon, well, I have a bridge to sell you.<br>
That is not our coal.<br>
Just like it is not our oil.<br>
You can keep it in the ground by nationalizing it, which i think we should do either way.<br>
Absent that, it will be mined, shipped and burned somewhere.<br>
If not the US, then in some other country with or without CCS.<br>
You can't stop mountaintop mining or killing valleys and streams and coal miners by having your head in the sand.<br>
Either we nationalize coal, or we better be damned sure that we develop carbon sequestration technology ASAP.</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>The Planet needs CCS</strong></p><p>There are some no-such-thing-as-clean-coal types of comments.<br>
Head in the sand is the way I see it.<br>
VERY important to get started right away on solving carbon sequestration if we want to do anything about carbon.<br>
For those who think we can stop the use of coal by slowing down the development of technological solutions on carbon, well, I have a bridge to sell you.<br>
That is not our coal.<br>
Just like it is not our oil.<br>
You can keep it in the ground by nationalizing it, which i think we should do either way.<br>
Absent that, it will be mined, shipped and burned somewhere.<br>
If not the US, then in some other country with or without CCS.<br>
You can't stop mountaintop mining or killing valleys and streams and coal miners by having your head in the sand.<br>
Either we nationalize coal, or we better be damned sure that we develop carbon sequestration technology ASAP.</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by joebhed</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:29:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oh-say-can-you-ccs/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>The repugs are right</strong></p><p>Of course the costs will be passed on to consumers.<br>
Either in rates or in taxes.<br>
This is undeniable.<br>
Where else does the money come from?<br>
Increasing business expenses, like through taxes and fees, just get passed on to the consumers of those businesses.<br>
The right approach is to "embrace" the fact that we all must pay the cost of solving public policy dilemmas like the environment, health and education, and what we need is a proper 'accounting", if you will, of the pass-through of the funds.<br>
Gonna cost Trillions to solve Carbon, let's get a budget and a plan together and get at it.<br>
The benefits of the policies will endure to the consumers and taxpayers.<br>
How could we not expect the consumers and taxpayers to pay for it?</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>The repugs are right</strong></p><p>Of course the costs will be passed on to consumers.<br>
Either in rates or in taxes.<br>
This is undeniable.<br>
Where else does the money come from?<br>
Increasing business expenses, like through taxes and fees, just get passed on to the consumers of those businesses.<br>
The right approach is to "embrace" the fact that we all must pay the cost of solving public policy dilemmas like the environment, health and education, and what we need is a proper 'accounting", if you will, of the pass-through of the funds.<br>
Gonna cost Trillions to solve Carbon, let's get a budget and a plan together and get at it.<br>
The benefits of the policies will endure to the consumers and taxpayers.<br>
How could we not expect the consumers and taxpayers to pay for it?</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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