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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New research correlates mass extinctions with the rise and fall of oceans]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:27:07 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Wishes...Horses....Gristwits at it again</strong></p><p><br>
If...If...If</p><p>
Study the NOAA tidal anomalies.</p><p>
Yes...more negative than positive.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Wishes...Horses....Gristwits at it again</strong></p><p><br>
If...If...If</p><p>
Study the NOAA tidal anomalies.</p><p>
Yes...more negative than positive.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:16:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>What's The Point?</strong></p><p>Maybe extinctions also correlate well with sunspots; so what? &nbsp;The main cause of extinction is habitat destruction, whether it's caused by a comet or by humans. &nbsp;But the latter is the only relevant issue, because it's the only one humans can control. &nbsp;While human-caused global warming clearly causes serious habitat destruction, among other things, there are many other serious causes, such as logging, mining, cattle grazing, oil drilling, and "development," the latter of which is just a euphemism for destruction of natural land.</p>
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				<p><strong>What's The Point?</strong></p><p>Maybe extinctions also correlate well with sunspots; so what? &nbsp;The main cause of extinction is habitat destruction, whether it's caused by a comet or by humans. &nbsp;But the latter is the only relevant issue, because it's the only one humans can control. &nbsp;While human-caused global warming clearly causes serious habitat destruction, among other things, there are many other serious causes, such as logging, mining, cattle grazing, oil drilling, and "development," the latter of which is just a euphemism for destruction of natural land.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:37:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>People don't get it<p>A planet that can't support 70% of its species can't support 9 billion upright walking primates. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>People don't get it<p>A planet that can't support 70% of its species can't support 9 billion upright walking primates. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by stevenearlsalmony</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:50:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Time for leaders with clarity of human perception,<p>....with intellectual integrity and moral courage.<p>
The evidence of climate change is so abundant and clear but people everywhere are not seeing it and, tberefore, not insisting upon adequate action. &nbsp;But why?<p>
There are likely other causes for this failure of human perception, intellectual integrity and moral courage, but I would like to ask the Dot Earth community to consider one rather obvious failing. &nbsp;Many too many of the "talking heads" in the mass media are part of this problem, not the solution. &nbsp;These commentators seem to be smart and clever but not intellectually honest; they get paid large sums of money to report news, whatever that is. &nbsp;On the whole, the public appears to think of these opinion-makers as objective commentators and worthy leaders, but they are neither objective nor are they leaders. &nbsp;Please forgive me for saying that many of them behave as professional prostitutes who are paid by wealthy benefactors to say whatsoever is economically expedient, politically convenient and supportive of the status quo for the conspicuously consuming rich and powerful people among us.<p>
Perhaps we need objective leaders in the mass media as desperately as we require a new kind of leadership in politics. <p>
Steven Earl Salmony<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php</a></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Time for leaders with clarity of human perception,<p>....with intellectual integrity and moral courage.<p>
The evidence of climate change is so abundant and clear but people everywhere are not seeing it and, tberefore, not insisting upon adequate action. &nbsp;But why?<p>
There are likely other causes for this failure of human perception, intellectual integrity and moral courage, but I would like to ask the Dot Earth community to consider one rather obvious failing. &nbsp;Many too many of the "talking heads" in the mass media are part of this problem, not the solution. &nbsp;These commentators seem to be smart and clever but not intellectually honest; they get paid large sums of money to report news, whatever that is. &nbsp;On the whole, the public appears to think of these opinion-makers as objective commentators and worthy leaders, but they are neither objective nor are they leaders. &nbsp;Please forgive me for saying that many of them behave as professional prostitutes who are paid by wealthy benefactors to say whatsoever is economically expedient, politically convenient and supportive of the status quo for the conspicuously consuming rich and powerful people among us.<p>
Perhaps we need objective leaders in the mass media as desperately as we require a new kind of leadership in politics. <p>
Steven Earl Salmony<br>
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001<br>
<a href="http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php</a></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:47:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot; objective leaders&quot;?</strong></p><p>I always appreciate Steven Earl Salmony's contributions; and I hope he will have the energy to continue to make them, even if most of us do not respond to them directly. &nbsp;SES expresses environmentalist values very nicely.</p><p>
In this case, "objective leaders" must strike most of us an oxymoron, unless the Utopia outlined in Plato's Republic were to come to pass. &nbsp;And even then ...</p><p>
Cousin Wolverine makes an excellent point. &nbsp;It is irrelevant, however scientifically interesting, that rise in sea levels is correlated with mass extinctions, and may sometimes cause them.</p><p>
Much more important for us to consider -- nay, to take to heart -- right now, is the thoughtless, self-entitled exploitation of the planet, directly involving destruction of ecosystems, perpetrated by us human beings, and coolly set aside, sadly by even the less thoughtless of us, in the box labeled "habitat destruction."</p><p>
Sea-level rise from anthropogenic global warming is just one species of habitat destruction. &nbsp;And habitat destruction is just one species of human thoughtless exploitation of the Earth's community of living creatures. &nbsp;And such exploitation is just one species of human selfish entitledness.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot; objective leaders&quot;?</strong></p><p>I always appreciate Steven Earl Salmony's contributions; and I hope he will have the energy to continue to make them, even if most of us do not respond to them directly. &nbsp;SES expresses environmentalist values very nicely.</p><p>
In this case, "objective leaders" must strike most of us an oxymoron, unless the Utopia outlined in Plato's Republic were to come to pass. &nbsp;And even then ...</p><p>
Cousin Wolverine makes an excellent point. &nbsp;It is irrelevant, however scientifically interesting, that rise in sea levels is correlated with mass extinctions, and may sometimes cause them.</p><p>
Much more important for us to consider -- nay, to take to heart -- right now, is the thoughtless, self-entitled exploitation of the planet, directly involving destruction of ecosystems, perpetrated by us human beings, and coolly set aside, sadly by even the less thoughtless of us, in the box labeled "habitat destruction."</p><p>
Sea-level rise from anthropogenic global warming is just one species of habitat destruction. &nbsp;And habitat destruction is just one species of human thoughtless exploitation of the Earth's community of living creatures. &nbsp;And such exploitation is just one species of human selfish entitledness.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:26:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Not every species is equally intelligent<p><b>Biodiversivist wrote: A planet that can't support 70% of its species can't support 9 billion upright walking primates.<p>
Perhaps those intelligent primates are <a href="http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource" rel="nofollow">capable of providing their own support.<br>
</br></a></p></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Not every species is equally intelligent<p><b>Biodiversivist wrote: A planet that can't support 70% of its species can't support 9 billion upright walking primates.<p>
Perhaps those intelligent primates are <a href="http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource" rel="nofollow">capable of providing their own support.<br>
</br></a></p></b></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:13:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Julian Simon was an advisor to Reagan<p>Thanks to Simon's philosophy (the more people you have, the better off humanity will be, 40 billion people being preferable to 5 billion) we got the infamous gag rule, which has caused untold suffering across the planet.<p>
On the other hand, if Simon's philosophy that human beings are infinitely creative and will find answers to all shortages is correct, then we need to get busy roping off what is left of the planet's ecosystems so that we can get busy finding solutions for the natural resource shortages that will occur when we do that.<p>
Population will peak regardless of Simon's philosophy.<p>
If we are infinitely creative, then there is no need to convert the last ecosystems into biofuel farms. We can protect them and find other solutions.<p>
Hows that for intelligent?<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Julian Simon was an advisor to Reagan<p>Thanks to Simon's philosophy (the more people you have, the better off humanity will be, 40 billion people being preferable to 5 billion) we got the infamous gag rule, which has caused untold suffering across the planet.<p>
On the other hand, if Simon's philosophy that human beings are infinitely creative and will find answers to all shortages is correct, then we need to get busy roping off what is left of the planet's ecosystems so that we can get busy finding solutions for the natural resource shortages that will occur when we do that.<p>
Population will peak regardless of Simon's philosophy.<p>
If we are infinitely creative, then there is no need to convert the last ecosystems into biofuel farms. We can protect them and find other solutions.<p>
Hows that for intelligent?<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:34:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>People don't get it<p>Global warming may be just as devastating as an ice age, or worse if the methane release from tundras causes runaway climate heating.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>People don't get it<p>Global warming may be just as devastating as an ice age, or worse if the methane release from tundras causes runaway climate heating.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:04:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/oceans-rise-species-fall/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Worldwide suicide, to escape overpopulation<p><b>Biodiversivist wrote: Julian Simon was an advisor to Reagan<p>
Please explain the relevance of that.<p>
Have you ever read Julian Simon?<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy" rel="nofollow">gag rule [...] has caused untold suffering across the planet.<p>
If that were assumed to be the case, we might expect increases in the suicide-rates of affected areas. Here is a list:<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate" rel="nofollow">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate<p>
The list ranks 100 nations, with a <b>lower-rank indicating a <b>higher suicide-rate. <p>
Iceland, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and Australia appear within ranks 37-44. Guatemala and the Philippines are 83 and 84. Honduras is 98. Perhaps a trend could be extracted.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: [Julian Simon had a] philosophy that human beings are infinitely creative<p>
That jibes neither with the theses of his books, nor with his <a href="http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource/TCONCLUS.txt" rel="nofollow">statement, "...<b>Progress does not come about automatically. And my message certainly is not one of complacency." Would you please provide an original citation?<p>
If humans were infinitely creative, we might expect that progress would indeed <b>come about automatically, and that the progress of the last 12,000 years might rather have come about in a mere instant.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: Population will peak<p>
Why would population necessarily peak?<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: If we are infinitely creative, then there is no need to convert the last ecosystems into biofuel farms. We can protect them and find other solutions.<p>
Yes, but humans are not infinitely creative, and therefore employ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage" rel="nofollow">triage in order to minimize what chaos will be inevitable. Triage would require that humans assign some quantification of priority to the preservation of a given ecosytem, so that it could be ranked against other quantified priorities. No one-given ecosystem is necessarily safe from triage, just as no one-given hospital-patient or R&amp;D-effort is necessarily safe from triage.<p>
Humanity, through its continuous creation of new resources, might find itself wealthy-enough and ecosystem-valuing-enough to limit its enterprise to only small portions of the planet.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: Hows that for <b>intelligent?<p>
You didn't define <b>intelligent, but doing things -- like preserving ecosystems -- for arbitrary reasons is the opposite of <b>creative. Creativity is the resonation of order from disharmonious chaos. A bear acting choatically will tend not to achieve the harmonious order of a full belly, unlike a creative bear chewing through a backpacker's food-suspension <a href="http://www.streetcar.cc/~frank/images/Photos/Adirondacks/09-bear-bag.jpg" rel="nofollow">line.<br>
</br></a></b></b></p></b></b></p></br></br></br></p></a></p></b></p></br></br></br></p></b></p></br></br></br></b></p></b></a></p></b></p></br></br></br></p></b></b></p></a></br></p></a></b></p></br></br></br></p></p></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Worldwide suicide, to escape overpopulation<p><b>Biodiversivist wrote: Julian Simon was an advisor to Reagan<p>
Please explain the relevance of that.<p>
Have you ever read Julian Simon?<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: the infamous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy" rel="nofollow">gag rule [...] has caused untold suffering across the planet.<p>
If that were assumed to be the case, we might expect increases in the suicide-rates of affected areas. Here is a list:<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate" rel="nofollow">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate<p>
The list ranks 100 nations, with a <b>lower-rank indicating a <b>higher suicide-rate. <p>
Iceland, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and Australia appear within ranks 37-44. Guatemala and the Philippines are 83 and 84. Honduras is 98. Perhaps a trend could be extracted.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: [Julian Simon had a] philosophy that human beings are infinitely creative<p>
That jibes neither with the theses of his books, nor with his <a href="http://www.juliansimon.com/writings/Ultimate_Resource/TCONCLUS.txt" rel="nofollow">statement, "...<b>Progress does not come about automatically. And my message certainly is not one of complacency." Would you please provide an original citation?<p>
If humans were infinitely creative, we might expect that progress would indeed <b>come about automatically, and that the progress of the last 12,000 years might rather have come about in a mere instant.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: Population will peak<p>
Why would population necessarily peak?<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: If we are infinitely creative, then there is no need to convert the last ecosystems into biofuel farms. We can protect them and find other solutions.<p>
Yes, but humans are not infinitely creative, and therefore employ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage" rel="nofollow">triage in order to minimize what chaos will be inevitable. Triage would require that humans assign some quantification of priority to the preservation of a given ecosytem, so that it could be ranked against other quantified priorities. No one-given ecosystem is necessarily safe from triage, just as no one-given hospital-patient or R&amp;D-effort is necessarily safe from triage.<p>
Humanity, through its continuous creation of new resources, might find itself wealthy-enough and ecosystem-valuing-enough to limit its enterprise to only small portions of the planet.<br>
<br><br><p>
<b>Biodiversivist wrote: Hows that for <b>intelligent?<p>
You didn't define <b>intelligent, but doing things -- like preserving ecosystems -- for arbitrary reasons is the opposite of <b>creative. Creativity is the resonation of order from disharmonious chaos. A bear acting choatically will tend not to achieve the harmonious order of a full belly, unlike a creative bear chewing through a backpacker's food-suspension <a href="http://www.streetcar.cc/~frank/images/Photos/Adirondacks/09-bear-bag.jpg" rel="nofollow">line.<br>
</br></a></b></b></p></b></b></p></br></br></br></p></a></p></b></p></br></br></br></p></b></p></br></br></br></b></p></b></a></p></b></p></br></br></br></p></b></b></p></a></br></p></a></b></p></br></br></br></p></p></b></p></strong></p>
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