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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for And no, global warming doesn&#8217;t change that]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by dbinid</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 03:43:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>NUCLEAR ENERGY:  the other inconvenient truth<p>Nuclear &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$45 / MWh and baseload capable<br>
Wind &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $70 / MWh and variable<br>
Solar &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $160 / MWh and variable<br>
IGCC+CCS &nbsp; &nbsp; $80 / MWh and baseload capable<p>
One of these has the lowest carbon footptint, <a href="http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn268.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn268.pdf<br>
That same one also has the lowest cost. &nbsp;If we use the lowest carbon footprint, lowest cost electricity source we maximize GHG emission reduction for dollars invested.<p>
What else? &nbsp;The world is already radioactive. &nbsp;Learn about cosmic and terrestrial natural background radiation.<p>
What else? &nbsp;Nuclear weapons? &nbsp;Proliferation? &nbsp;Nobody needs nuclear electricity generation to enrich U for a simple gun-type U-235 bomb. Denying ourselves emission-free nuclear electricity does nothing to prevent nuclear weapons proliferation. &nbsp;In fact, the opposite is true, you can police/safeguard materials only if you ARE involved.<p>
Waste? &nbsp;Let's talk about it. &nbsp;Spent fuel. &nbsp;A contained solid, held in posession, not sent up a stack. &nbsp;Meanwhile, 900 tons of CO2 per second are being dumped into the atmosphere. &nbsp;That makes nuclear energy a model of responsible waste management.<p>
What about longevity of nuclear waste? &nbsp;What about longevity of CO2! &nbsp;Study ocean carbonate chemistry. &nbsp;Study what we know about the ocean's rate of response to the PETM. &nbsp;Study the work of such authors as Christopher Sabine or David Archer (U of Chicago). &nbsp;Be assured, the CO2 event we're starting is every bit as long lasting as nuclear issues. &nbsp;Did you know 7% of today's CO2 emissions will still be in the atmosphere 100,000 year from now? &nbsp;True. &nbsp;Remember the glacial maximum that was supposed to be peaking in 80,000 years? &nbsp;Cancelled.<p>
This whole thing is much, much, much bigger than most of you realize. &nbsp;Your great-great-grandkid's lives? &nbsp;Have you seen Mad Max? &nbsp;Their great-great-grandkids lives . . . have you seen Clan of the Cave Bear?<p>
If you think we have the time and luxury of not choosing nuclear, then you don't understand the science of climate. <p>
Learn ocean carbonate chemistry. &nbsp;Study the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum carbon incursion. &nbsp;Study natural background radiation. &nbsp;Think about the fact that life evolved in a world that was already full of ionizing radiation. &nbsp;Think about that. &nbsp;<br>
Radiation ... life evolved in it! <p>
Study. &nbsp;Learn. &nbsp;Think.</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></a></p></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>NUCLEAR ENERGY:  the other inconvenient truth<p>Nuclear &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;$45 / MWh and baseload capable<br>
Wind &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $70 / MWh and variable<br>
Solar &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $160 / MWh and variable<br>
IGCC+CCS &nbsp; &nbsp; $80 / MWh and baseload capable<p>
One of these has the lowest carbon footptint, <a href="http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn268.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/postpn268.pdf<br>
That same one also has the lowest cost. &nbsp;If we use the lowest carbon footprint, lowest cost electricity source we maximize GHG emission reduction for dollars invested.<p>
What else? &nbsp;The world is already radioactive. &nbsp;Learn about cosmic and terrestrial natural background radiation.<p>
What else? &nbsp;Nuclear weapons? &nbsp;Proliferation? &nbsp;Nobody needs nuclear electricity generation to enrich U for a simple gun-type U-235 bomb. Denying ourselves emission-free nuclear electricity does nothing to prevent nuclear weapons proliferation. &nbsp;In fact, the opposite is true, you can police/safeguard materials only if you ARE involved.<p>
Waste? &nbsp;Let's talk about it. &nbsp;Spent fuel. &nbsp;A contained solid, held in posession, not sent up a stack. &nbsp;Meanwhile, 900 tons of CO2 per second are being dumped into the atmosphere. &nbsp;That makes nuclear energy a model of responsible waste management.<p>
What about longevity of nuclear waste? &nbsp;What about longevity of CO2! &nbsp;Study ocean carbonate chemistry. &nbsp;Study what we know about the ocean's rate of response to the PETM. &nbsp;Study the work of such authors as Christopher Sabine or David Archer (U of Chicago). &nbsp;Be assured, the CO2 event we're starting is every bit as long lasting as nuclear issues. &nbsp;Did you know 7% of today's CO2 emissions will still be in the atmosphere 100,000 year from now? &nbsp;True. &nbsp;Remember the glacial maximum that was supposed to be peaking in 80,000 years? &nbsp;Cancelled.<p>
This whole thing is much, much, much bigger than most of you realize. &nbsp;Your great-great-grandkid's lives? &nbsp;Have you seen Mad Max? &nbsp;Their great-great-grandkids lives . . . have you seen Clan of the Cave Bear?<p>
If you think we have the time and luxury of not choosing nuclear, then you don't understand the science of climate. <p>
Learn ocean carbonate chemistry. &nbsp;Study the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum carbon incursion. &nbsp;Study natural background radiation. &nbsp;Think about the fact that life evolved in a world that was already full of ionizing radiation. &nbsp;Think about that. &nbsp;<br>
Radiation ... life evolved in it! <p>
Study. &nbsp;Learn. &nbsp;Think.</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></a></p></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Andrew Dessler</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 03:46:52 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>nuclear is OK by me</strong></p><p>I tend to support nuclear power when compared to the alternatives. &nbsp;most of the problems with nuclear are political, not scientific, and the only really tough one to solve is proliferation. &nbsp;I don't view reactor safety as an issue at all, and waste is solvable technically (if not politically).</p><p>
there will not be a single "silver bullet" in the climate change debate, but I think that nuclear will play an important role in helping us solving the problem. </p>
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				<p><strong>nuclear is OK by me</strong></p><p>I tend to support nuclear power when compared to the alternatives. &nbsp;most of the problems with nuclear are political, not scientific, and the only really tough one to solve is proliferation. &nbsp;I don't view reactor safety as an issue at all, and waste is solvable technically (if not politically).</p><p>
there will not be a single "silver bullet" in the climate change debate, but I think that nuclear will play an important role in helping us solving the problem. </p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:02:09 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Perhaps if it could be shown ...<p>that Moore is being paid a non-token amount, the appearance of circular reasoning -- it must be more than a dollar because they're all shills, and now that we know it's more than a dollar, our certainty that they're all shills is reinforced -- would be reduced.<p>
Note how Roberts apparently saw some mention of coal in what I wrote in that <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/4/24/222953/992" rel="nofollow">earlier discussion.<p>
The American public's majority approval, when they live within a few miles of a nuclear plant but don't work there, for new reactors to be built there and the general public's belief that they are safe shows they are not irrational about nuclear energy. Neither are Greenpeace contractors when it's their personal skins that are in need of a <a href="http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/07/03/northpolerescuemission.shtml" rel="nofollow">nuclear boat ride.<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Perhaps if it could be shown ...<p>that Moore is being paid a non-token amount, the appearance of circular reasoning -- it must be more than a dollar because they're all shills, and now that we know it's more than a dollar, our certainty that they're all shills is reinforced -- would be reduced.<p>
Note how Roberts apparently saw some mention of coal in what I wrote in that <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/4/24/222953/992" rel="nofollow">earlier discussion.<p>
The American public's majority approval, when they live within a few miles of a nuclear plant but don't work there, for new reactors to be built there and the general public's belief that they are safe shows they are not irrational about nuclear energy. Neither are Greenpeace contractors when it's their personal skins that are in need of a <a href="http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/07/03/northpolerescuemission.shtml" rel="nofollow">nuclear boat ride.<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by John McGrath</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:08:36 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>What's left out?</strong></p><p>When costing nuclear:</p><p>
Insurance -- the market simply won't insure nuclear power, the govt does it.</p><p>
R&amp;D -- the US nuclear industry is an offshoot of weapons and propulsion research for the military, nothing more.</p><p>
Waste disposal -- Nevada taxpayers paying to foul their own water. &nbsp;Nice work, if you can get it.</p><p>
If solar and wind had the kind of subsidies that nuclear has, you'd see those numbers above flip quickly.</p><p>
As you say, dbinid, learn. &nbsp;Think.</p>
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				<p><strong>What's left out?</strong></p><p>When costing nuclear:</p><p>
Insurance -- the market simply won't insure nuclear power, the govt does it.</p><p>
R&amp;D -- the US nuclear industry is an offshoot of weapons and propulsion research for the military, nothing more.</p><p>
Waste disposal -- Nevada taxpayers paying to foul their own water. &nbsp;Nice work, if you can get it.</p><p>
If solar and wind had the kind of subsidies that nuclear has, you'd see those numbers above flip quickly.</p><p>
As you say, dbinid, learn. &nbsp;Think.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by dbinid</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:43:15 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>nonsense</strong></p><p>Insurance? &nbsp;You think owners/operators of nuclear power plants operate without liability insurance? ! ?</p><p>
R&amp;D: &nbsp;don't understand your point ... ? &nbsp;Maybe you would enjoy studying the history of the National Reactor Testing Station, which later had other names and is now known as the Idaho National Laboratory. &nbsp;A fifty year history, 50-ish some odd reactors built, pushed to limits, fuel tested, all to learn lessons needed to enable commercial nuclear power. &nbsp;The Idaho site never had anything to do with weapons (Los Alamos, Livermore, Oak Ridge, Hanford ... those are the Weapons labs).</p><p>
Subsidies? &nbsp;What nuclear subsidies? &nbsp;The trivial support in EPACT05 to pay for losses incurred for the first few reactors if their opening is slowed by government liscensing delays? &nbsp;That's not subsidy, that's the government covering risks created by the government's own new untested liscensing process. &nbsp;Maybe you don't know what "subsidy" means. &nbsp;Or, maybe you're thinking of ethanol which can't even exist subsidies. &nbsp;Or, maybe you don't remember the wind industry collapsing when its Carter-era tax credits expired? </p>
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				<p><strong>nonsense</strong></p><p>Insurance? &nbsp;You think owners/operators of nuclear power plants operate without liability insurance? ! ?</p><p>
R&amp;D: &nbsp;don't understand your point ... ? &nbsp;Maybe you would enjoy studying the history of the National Reactor Testing Station, which later had other names and is now known as the Idaho National Laboratory. &nbsp;A fifty year history, 50-ish some odd reactors built, pushed to limits, fuel tested, all to learn lessons needed to enable commercial nuclear power. &nbsp;The Idaho site never had anything to do with weapons (Los Alamos, Livermore, Oak Ridge, Hanford ... those are the Weapons labs).</p><p>
Subsidies? &nbsp;What nuclear subsidies? &nbsp;The trivial support in EPACT05 to pay for losses incurred for the first few reactors if their opening is slowed by government liscensing delays? &nbsp;That's not subsidy, that's the government covering risks created by the government's own new untested liscensing process. &nbsp;Maybe you don't know what "subsidy" means. &nbsp;Or, maybe you're thinking of ethanol which can't even exist subsidies. &nbsp;Or, maybe you don't remember the wind industry collapsing when its Carter-era tax credits expired? </p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:06:18 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>How and by whom was nuclear found wanting?</strong></p><p>David Roberts wrote: Nuclear: re-evaluated and still sucky</p><p>
Who re-evaluated nuclear, and in what way(s) did he/they find it wanting?<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>How and by whom was nuclear found wanting?</strong></p><p>David Roberts wrote: Nuclear: re-evaluated and still sucky</p><p>
Who re-evaluated nuclear, and in what way(s) did he/they find it wanting?<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:31:13 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>points</strong></p><p>dbinid writes</p><p>
Insurance? &nbsp;You think owners/operators of nuclear power plants operate without liability insurance? ! ?</p><p>
Yes--under Price-Anderson, nuke owners are absolved from all liability over $540 million.<br>
----------------------------------------------</p><p>
R&amp;D and subsidies:</p><p>
for more on subsidies, see your own response to the comment on R&amp;D. &nbsp;<br>
================</p><p>
As for "the government covering risks created by the government's own new untested liscensing process," do you propose eliminating the licensing system and regulating nuclear power through tort? &nbsp;Not many nuclear industry officials I know would agree with that.</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>points</strong></p><p>dbinid writes</p><p>
Insurance? &nbsp;You think owners/operators of nuclear power plants operate without liability insurance? ! ?</p><p>
Yes--under Price-Anderson, nuke owners are absolved from all liability over $540 million.<br>
----------------------------------------------</p><p>
R&amp;D and subsidies:</p><p>
for more on subsidies, see your own response to the comment on R&amp;D. &nbsp;<br>
================</p><p>
As for "the government covering risks created by the government's own new untested liscensing process," do you propose eliminating the licensing system and regulating nuclear power through tort? &nbsp;Not many nuclear industry officials I know would agree with that.</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:50:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>The licensors won't always be the competition ...</strong></p><p>but today they are; they profit from fossil fuels.</p>
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				<p><strong>The licensors won't always be the competition ...</strong></p><p>but today they are; they profit from fossil fuels.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:55:52 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Yeah, All of France is Wrong</strong></p><p><br>
80 percent of electricity production in France comes from nukes.</p><p>
They do it right and they do it well.</p><p>
This country has been retarded by neer-do-well hippies.

<p>The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Yeah, All of France is Wrong</strong></p><p><br>
80 percent of electricity production in France comes from nukes.</p><p>
They do it right and they do it well.</p><p>
This country has been retarded by neer-do-well hippies.

<p>The Texeme Construct offers international text memetics construction and textcasting services.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:46:08 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hugh Montefiore is an enviro who supports nukes<p>David Roberts wrote: As far as I can tell, there are precisely three environmentalists of any note who have come to support nuclear power: James Lovelock, Stewart Brand, and Patrick Moore.<br>
<a href="http://www.grist.org/news/daily/2004/10/22/4" rel="nofollow">grist.org/news/daily/2004/10/22/4<p>
England's Reverend <b>Hugh Montefiore -- member of the Church of England, former Bishop of Birmingham, and long-time champion of the environment -- has been forced to resign from the board of Friends of the Earth for arguing that nuclear power is the only viable way to avoid the oncoming catastrophe of global warming.<br>
</br></b></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Hugh Montefiore is an enviro who supports nukes<p>David Roberts wrote: As far as I can tell, there are precisely three environmentalists of any note who have come to support nuclear power: James Lovelock, Stewart Brand, and Patrick Moore.<br>
<a href="http://www.grist.org/news/daily/2004/10/22/4" rel="nofollow">grist.org/news/daily/2004/10/22/4<p>
England's Reverend <b>Hugh Montefiore -- member of the Church of England, former Bishop of Birmingham, and long-time champion of the environment -- has been forced to resign from the board of Friends of the Earth for arguing that nuclear power is the only viable way to avoid the oncoming catastrophe of global warming.<br>
</br></b></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by stringy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:35:58 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Add Flannery to the list<p>At a talk Tim Flannery gave last year that I attended, he said he saw maybe 5% of Australia's future energy usage coming from nuclear, although the bulk would be <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1389827.htm" rel="nofollow">wind, solar and hot rocks with gas backup.<p>
Just recently in an <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1584885.htm" rel="nofollow">interview he said that China may have to consider it as well if they want to get away from coal, and that he doesn't expect to see it in Australia in his lifetime due to costs/time to construct.<p>
He's cautious about it, but seems certain that it will eventually happen.</p></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Add Flannery to the list<p>At a talk Tim Flannery gave last year that I attended, he said he saw maybe 5% of Australia's future energy usage coming from nuclear, although the bulk would be <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1389827.htm" rel="nofollow">wind, solar and hot rocks with gas backup.<p>
Just recently in an <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1584885.htm" rel="nofollow">interview he said that China may have to consider it as well if they want to get away from coal, and that he doesn't expect to see it in Australia in his lifetime due to costs/time to construct.<p>
He's cautious about it, but seems certain that it will eventually happen.</p></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:13:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-re-evaluated-and-still-sucky/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>WWF interviews Tim Flannery<p>Tim Flannery WWF interview video, added February 12, 2007:<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-C7OPUg9Lo" rel="nofollow">youtube.com/watch?v=C-C7OPUg9Lo<p>
(length - 10:34)<br>
</br></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>WWF interviews Tim Flannery<p>Tim Flannery WWF interview video, added February 12, 2007:<br>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-C7OPUg9Lo" rel="nofollow">youtube.com/watch?v=C-C7OPUg9Lo<p>
(length - 10:34)<br>
</br></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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