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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The current oil shock]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:20:00 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>er...wrong article?<p>The article referred to in the intro of this post, <a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174949" rel="nofollow">"Living on the Ice Shelf", is well worth reading, and gives a nice plug for Grist.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>er...wrong article?<p>The article referred to in the intro of this post, <a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174949" rel="nofollow">"Living on the Ice Shelf", is well worth reading, and gives a nice plug for Grist.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:02:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Dilip needs to read Grist more!</strong></p><p>It's sad to see smart writers like Hiro fall for the "clean coal" will save us mantra. I think India must have a lot of solar potential. &nbsp;</p><p>
Also my understanding is coal provides 50% not 20% of U.S. electricity.</p><p>
Jon: Enjoyed the Mike Davis article. Couldn't find the Grist kudos from the intro, though.</p>
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				<p><strong>Dilip needs to read Grist more!</strong></p><p>It's sad to see smart writers like Hiro fall for the "clean coal" will save us mantra. I think India must have a lot of solar potential. &nbsp;</p><p>
Also my understanding is coal provides 50% not 20% of U.S. electricity.</p><p>
Jon: Enjoyed the Mike Davis article. Couldn't find the Grist kudos from the intro, though.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:13:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Colin, the kudos</strong></p><p>are at the end of Mike Davis' article, written by Tom:[Note for TomDispatch readers: Those of you who are environmentally minded and interested in pursuing such matters further might consider spending some time at the superb website of Grist Magazine and visiting, as well, an interesting and provocative new online magazine/website, Environment 360. Tom]</p>
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				<p><strong>Colin, the kudos</strong></p><p>are at the end of Mike Davis' article, written by Tom:[Note for TomDispatch readers: Those of you who are environmentally minded and interested in pursuing such matters further might consider spending some time at the superb website of Grist Magazine and visiting, as well, an interesting and provocative new online magazine/website, Environment 360. Tom]</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:20:16 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, jon.<p><br>
Incidentally, the Environment 360 looks like a good website too. <p>
Have to agree with Jeff Goodall from <a href="http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2036" rel="nofollow">their front page article about the limits of clean coal:<br>
Clearly, every ton of CO2 that is safely buried underground is a step in the right direction. But betting our future on an expensive, unproven technology like CCS is, at best, reckless. We don't need to bury our problems. We need to reinvent our world. </br></a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, jon.<p><br>
Incidentally, the Environment 360 looks like a good website too. <p>
Have to agree with Jeff Goodall from <a href="http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2036" rel="nofollow">their front page article about the limits of clean coal:<br>
Clearly, every ton of CO2 that is safely buried underground is a step in the right direction. But betting our future on an expensive, unproven technology like CCS is, at best, reckless. We don't need to bury our problems. We need to reinvent our world. </br></a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:25:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Yeah,  Hiro's trifecta of</strong></p><p>clean coal, hydrogen, and nuclear -- one is real far away, the other was "Real Soon Now" and is now "Really over now", and the last...well...</p><p>
As opposed to what is actually available and proven, now, solar, wind, geothermal heat pumps, zero emissions buildings, transit, walkable communities...</p>
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				<p><strong>Yeah,  Hiro's trifecta of</strong></p><p>clean coal, hydrogen, and nuclear -- one is real far away, the other was "Real Soon Now" and is now "Really over now", and the last...well...</p><p>
As opposed to what is actually available and proven, now, solar, wind, geothermal heat pumps, zero emissions buildings, transit, walkable communities...</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Des Emery</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:14:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>No Relief in Sight</strong></p><p>Dilip Hiro's book seems to be as non-judgmental as possible, attributing the current upheaval in oil prices to 'normal' fluctuations.</p><p>
Maybe. But speculators appear to have been the only segment of society which has benefited from the frenzy. &nbsp;The market has become a gambler's heaven instead of a method to provide funding from the public to any particular venture, with reward commensurate to risk. &nbsp;</p><p>
BTW, the 'oil shock' of 1973-74 was caused by a v-p at Exxon in New York who said that he was not going to pay "those Ay-Rabs" in OPEC (who incidentally actually owned the oil) the prices they were asking. &nbsp;His attitude prompted them to jack up the asking price into then strato<br>
spheric rates, triggering the oil shock.</p><p>
People in cars lined up at gas stations, waiting for hours for a fill-up. &nbsp;The auto industry began laying off workers, who cancelled appliance and furniture purchases, starting more lay-offs in those industries, and recession escalated.</p><p>
The "Market" is actually a very temperamental boss, prone to screaming tantrums, and cannot be relied upon to ever do 'the right thing' preferring to cut its own throat rather than develop a cogent plan of action to maintain stability. 

<p>Des Emery</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>No Relief in Sight</strong></p><p>Dilip Hiro's book seems to be as non-judgmental as possible, attributing the current upheaval in oil prices to 'normal' fluctuations.</p><p>
Maybe. But speculators appear to have been the only segment of society which has benefited from the frenzy. &nbsp;The market has become a gambler's heaven instead of a method to provide funding from the public to any particular venture, with reward commensurate to risk. &nbsp;</p><p>
BTW, the 'oil shock' of 1973-74 was caused by a v-p at Exxon in New York who said that he was not going to pay "those Ay-Rabs" in OPEC (who incidentally actually owned the oil) the prices they were asking. &nbsp;His attitude prompted them to jack up the asking price into then strato<br>
spheric rates, triggering the oil shock.</p><p>
People in cars lined up at gas stations, waiting for hours for a fill-up. &nbsp;The auto industry began laying off workers, who cancelled appliance and furniture purchases, starting more lay-offs in those industries, and recession escalated.</p><p>
The "Market" is actually a very temperamental boss, prone to screaming tantrums, and cannot be relied upon to ever do 'the right thing' preferring to cut its own throat rather than develop a cogent plan of action to maintain stability. 

<p>Des Emery</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by ce1907</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:43:28 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>desperate to pimp geo-thermal heat pumps</strong></p><p>and household solar or wind units</p><p>
but I keep forgetting</p><p>
what do we need to do to get those geo-thermal heat pumps built, as a practical matter?</p><p>
and what, if anything, do we need FERC to do?</p>
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				<p><strong>desperate to pimp geo-thermal heat pumps</strong></p><p>and household solar or wind units</p><p>
but I keep forgetting</p><p>
what do we need to do to get those geo-thermal heat pumps built, as a practical matter?</p><p>
and what, if anything, do we need FERC to do?</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by cjwirth</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:48:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Peak Oil is a Catastrophe<p>Global oil production is now declining, from 85 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%. This is like a 45% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted. <p>
Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.<p>
We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems. <p>
This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: <a href="http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html<p>
I used to live in NH, but moved to a safer place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?

<p>cjwirth <a href="http://www.peakoilassociates.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.peakoilassociates.com</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Peak Oil is a Catastrophe<p>Global oil production is now declining, from 85 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%. This is like a 45% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted. <p>
Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.<p>
We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems. <p>
This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: <a href="http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html<p>
I used to live in NH, but moved to a safer place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?

<p>cjwirth <a href="http://www.peakoilassociates.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.peakoilassociates.com</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:21:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Avoiding catastrophe</strong></p><p>Someplace between the cornucopians and the apocalypsians lies, I think, the reality: we're NOT all gonna start living in caves and surviving off of nuts and berries in 2009. &nbsp;However life as we got used to living it in the latter 1/2 of the 20th Century is slipping away. &nbsp;Forever.</p><p>
Energy will get increasingly expensive. &nbsp;It will be economically essential that we learn to live with less, consume less, travel less, produce more of what we consume locally. &nbsp;</p><p>
These are not a bad things! &nbsp;These are opportunities to begin to rediscover how our local communities can work in ways that better fulfill our needs. &nbsp;(Not cravings, needs).</p><p>
Not a bad thing, that is, to the extent that politicians don't cynically exploit our fear of change to push their own plutocratic agendas. &nbsp;Which of course they will try to do. &nbsp;I don't want to name any names, but Bush and Cheney and McCain and their buddies can either get on the bus, fade off into the sunset, or shut the f*ck up if they want to do something positive for America. &nbsp;</p><p>
"Conservation may be a great personal virtue, but it's no basis for an enery policy". &nbsp;</p><p>
Yeah, well, f*ck you too, Cheney. &nbsp;You can go to the back of the line after the revolution. &nbsp;If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, you scum-sucking swine.<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Avoiding catastrophe</strong></p><p>Someplace between the cornucopians and the apocalypsians lies, I think, the reality: we're NOT all gonna start living in caves and surviving off of nuts and berries in 2009. &nbsp;However life as we got used to living it in the latter 1/2 of the 20th Century is slipping away. &nbsp;Forever.</p><p>
Energy will get increasingly expensive. &nbsp;It will be economically essential that we learn to live with less, consume less, travel less, produce more of what we consume locally. &nbsp;</p><p>
These are not a bad things! &nbsp;These are opportunities to begin to rediscover how our local communities can work in ways that better fulfill our needs. &nbsp;(Not cravings, needs).</p><p>
Not a bad thing, that is, to the extent that politicians don't cynically exploit our fear of change to push their own plutocratic agendas. &nbsp;Which of course they will try to do. &nbsp;I don't want to name any names, but Bush and Cheney and McCain and their buddies can either get on the bus, fade off into the sunset, or shut the f*ck up if they want to do something positive for America. &nbsp;</p><p>
"Conservation may be a great personal virtue, but it's no basis for an enery policy". &nbsp;</p><p>
Yeah, well, f*ck you too, Cheney. &nbsp;You can go to the back of the line after the revolution. &nbsp;If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, you scum-sucking swine.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:27:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>ce1907, cjwirth</strong></p><p>ce1907 -- There are something like 2 million geothermal heat pumps installed in the US, currently, I believe, and Sweden is making a big push to install them in buildings (and I have no personal connection to the industry). &nbsp;There is an entire development near me here in Evanston that has them installed. &nbsp;It's very mature technology. &nbsp;The problem, as with most renewable technology, is that the financial system is set up to fund 30 year mortgages for houses in the middle of nowhere, but not to create an energy infrastructure that might save the biosphere -- the solution being, in my opinion, lots of government-financed loans.</p><p>
cjwirth, while I agree that your scenario could play out, we have to understand that 1) trains should be electrified, and if you look at Alan Drake's recent post at theoildrum.com you will see that most countries are moving in that direction. &nbsp;The US ran virtually all of its freight prior to WWII via trains, including food. &nbsp;Secondly, if things got that bad, I think that priority rationing of gasoline would go to trucking, if the trains were not built up, to move essential things like food, and to maintain at least some of the highways.</p><p>
But the other thing is that for the most part, the manufacturing sector of the economy runs on electricity. &nbsp;All the machinery does, and that's the most important part of the economy. &nbsp;So if intelligently done, a powering down economy could switch, certainly with dislocation, but not necessarily collapse. &nbsp;Then again, I said, "done intelligently".</p>
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				<p><strong>ce1907, cjwirth</strong></p><p>ce1907 -- There are something like 2 million geothermal heat pumps installed in the US, currently, I believe, and Sweden is making a big push to install them in buildings (and I have no personal connection to the industry). &nbsp;There is an entire development near me here in Evanston that has them installed. &nbsp;It's very mature technology. &nbsp;The problem, as with most renewable technology, is that the financial system is set up to fund 30 year mortgages for houses in the middle of nowhere, but not to create an energy infrastructure that might save the biosphere -- the solution being, in my opinion, lots of government-financed loans.</p><p>
cjwirth, while I agree that your scenario could play out, we have to understand that 1) trains should be electrified, and if you look at Alan Drake's recent post at theoildrum.com you will see that most countries are moving in that direction. &nbsp;The US ran virtually all of its freight prior to WWII via trains, including food. &nbsp;Secondly, if things got that bad, I think that priority rationing of gasoline would go to trucking, if the trains were not built up, to move essential things like food, and to maintain at least some of the highways.</p><p>
But the other thing is that for the most part, the manufacturing sector of the economy runs on electricity. &nbsp;All the machinery does, and that's the most important part of the economy. &nbsp;So if intelligently done, a powering down economy could switch, certainly with dislocation, but not necessarily collapse. &nbsp;Then again, I said, "done intelligently".</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:01:36 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Unworthy</strong></p><p>The article is unworthy of Gristmill. &nbsp;But still a good example of the misdirection of conventional wisdom purveyed by the media and politicians. &nbsp;This is the kind of thing that makes low information voters into misinformation voters.</p><p>
Anyway, onto the better thread. Conservation subsidies would help ground source heat pump mass production and installation. &nbsp;If the government payed between 5 and 10 cents per each kwh saved, or it's GHG equivalent curtailed, that would get the payback down to a few years for these systems. 

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Unworthy</strong></p><p>The article is unworthy of Gristmill. &nbsp;But still a good example of the misdirection of conventional wisdom purveyed by the media and politicians. &nbsp;This is the kind of thing that makes low information voters into misinformation voters.</p><p>
Anyway, onto the better thread. Conservation subsidies would help ground source heat pump mass production and installation. &nbsp;If the government payed between 5 and 10 cents per each kwh saved, or it's GHG equivalent curtailed, that would get the payback down to a few years for these systems. 

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by JeffB</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:53:47 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Saudi Arabia of Coal - NOT!<p>Gristies,<br>
One of the things that we should all know after listening to the MSM is that any repeatded statement of "fact" should be questioned. &nbsp;So when you hear statements such as "The US has a 200-year supply of coal", your "spidey sense" should be kicking in to check whether or not it really is true.<p>
The real fact of the matter is that these statements are based in studies/data originating in the 1970s and which have not been confirmed by geological surveys since that time. &nbsp;There is growing evidence in fact that the US is facing "peak coal" similarly to the "peak oil" crisis which we are currently experiencing. &nbsp;A recent study by Prof. David Rutledge at Caltech indicates that US supplies of coal may peak as early as 2020.<br>
<a href="http://rutledge.caltech.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://rutledge.caltech.edu/<p>
In any case, we are betting our future on data and studies that are 35 years old. And that just doesn't seem smart.</p></a></br></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Saudi Arabia of Coal - NOT!<p>Gristies,<br>
One of the things that we should all know after listening to the MSM is that any repeatded statement of "fact" should be questioned. &nbsp;So when you hear statements such as "The US has a 200-year supply of coal", your "spidey sense" should be kicking in to check whether or not it really is true.<p>
The real fact of the matter is that these statements are based in studies/data originating in the 1970s and which have not been confirmed by geological surveys since that time. &nbsp;There is growing evidence in fact that the US is facing "peak coal" similarly to the "peak oil" crisis which we are currently experiencing. &nbsp;A recent study by Prof. David Rutledge at Caltech indicates that US supplies of coal may peak as early as 2020.<br>
<a href="http://rutledge.caltech.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://rutledge.caltech.edu/<p>
In any case, we are betting our future on data and studies that are 35 years old. And that just doesn't seem smart.</p></a></br></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by VeganCountyFan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:47:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>cjwirth</strong></p><p>"Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?"<br>
</p><p>
yes please</br></p>
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				<p><strong>cjwirth</strong></p><p>"Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?"<br>
</p><p>
yes please</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by ce1907</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:31:01 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Rynn and Amazn</strong></p><p>how, specifically?</p><p>
does anyone have a bill introduced?</p>
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				<p><strong>Rynn and Amazn</strong></p><p>how, specifically?</p><p>
does anyone have a bill introduced?</p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by vakibs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:56:52 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/15</guid>
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				<p><strong>Trains !!<p>What consumes oil the most ? The transport sector. <p>
What is the quickest way to modify transport sector ? Trains. <p>
No mention of trains here ! As recommended by Jon, <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4301" rel="nofollow">please try reading this article on the oil drum for better information.<p>
We don't need nuclear to replace oil. We don't even need heavyweight solar or wind. Both of these are required when we talk of replacing coal or natural gas. For replacing oil, very simple innovations will do. <p>
When most of the transport sector is electrified, the last mile can be reached either by electric vehicles, by biofuels or even by bicycles. <br>
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				<p><strong>Trains !!<p>What consumes oil the most ? The transport sector. <p>
What is the quickest way to modify transport sector ? Trains. <p>
No mention of trains here ! As recommended by Jon, <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4301" rel="nofollow">please try reading this article on the oil drum for better information.<p>
We don't need nuclear to replace oil. We don't even need heavyweight solar or wind. Both of these are required when we talk of replacing coal or natural gas. For replacing oil, very simple innovations will do. <p>
When most of the transport sector is electrified, the last mile can be reached either by electric vehicles, by biofuels or even by bicycles. <br>
</br></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by Millstone</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:13:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/16</guid>
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				<p><strong>Finally</strong></p><p>Don't see many articles on Grist that go this direction, but I'm glad to see another view besides energy efficiency, windmill in every backyard, solar panel on every roof, and what is the last bit, oh yeah a chicken in every pot. I guess I forgot the waste dervied biogas powered CHP turbine at the center of every town/suburb/city.</p><p>
I agree with all you guys we need more energy efficiency, more solar, more wind but look at the other article just posted on India. Do you all really and truly think they can meet their rising energy demand on the holy trinity of renewable energy alone?</p>
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				<p><strong>Finally</strong></p><p>Don't see many articles on Grist that go this direction, but I'm glad to see another view besides energy efficiency, windmill in every backyard, solar panel on every roof, and what is the last bit, oh yeah a chicken in every pot. I guess I forgot the waste dervied biogas powered CHP turbine at the center of every town/suburb/city.</p><p>
I agree with all you guys we need more energy efficiency, more solar, more wind but look at the other article just posted on India. Do you all really and truly think they can meet their rising energy demand on the holy trinity of renewable energy alone?</p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:41:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-relief-in-sight/17</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ditto what Romm said<p>

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ditto what Romm said<p>

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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