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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for High drama leads to compromise at climate conference]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:19:57 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Small ray of hope</strong></p><p>So, at the 11th hour, the United States delegation decided to 'get out of the way' and reluctantly signed on to this agreement.</p><p>
I'll admit that doesn't exactly qualify as news worthy of dancing in the streets. &nbsp;However it does cheer me a bit as a reminder that enough pressure put on the U.S. government (by Gore, by other governments, by environmental organizations, by regular people), even on a U.S. government "led" (cough) by a bunch of thieving, self-aggrandizing swine like Bush &amp; Cheney, can be forced to budge a little when they are pushed against the wall hard enough.</p><p>
Am I grasping at optimistic straws here? &nbsp;Probably. &nbsp;But there is so little good news coming out these days regarding the likely fate of our biosphere I'll take whatever optimistic news I can get.</p><p>
Which actually leads me to a question, my dear fellow Grist readers: Is there a good Web site out there that intentionally focuses on positive news about the environment and the successful actions that people and communities have taken to effect sustainable progress? &nbsp;</p><p>
I have no intention of sticking my head in the sand regarding all the alarming environmental news out there -- frankly, it would be impossible for one to do so if I wanted to. &nbsp;I just need, badly, a little more positive-news balance in my life. &nbsp;The flood of negative news out there threatens to throw me into a perpetual blue funk, potentially immobilizing me in my own depression.</p><p>
Therefore any recommedations regarding news sites that focus on the breakthroughs, the happy endings, and the David-vs-Goliath successes would be welcome. &nbsp;Append them below, if you please ...</p>
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				<p><strong>Small ray of hope</strong></p><p>So, at the 11th hour, the United States delegation decided to 'get out of the way' and reluctantly signed on to this agreement.</p><p>
I'll admit that doesn't exactly qualify as news worthy of dancing in the streets. &nbsp;However it does cheer me a bit as a reminder that enough pressure put on the U.S. government (by Gore, by other governments, by environmental organizations, by regular people), even on a U.S. government "led" (cough) by a bunch of thieving, self-aggrandizing swine like Bush &amp; Cheney, can be forced to budge a little when they are pushed against the wall hard enough.</p><p>
Am I grasping at optimistic straws here? &nbsp;Probably. &nbsp;But there is so little good news coming out these days regarding the likely fate of our biosphere I'll take whatever optimistic news I can get.</p><p>
Which actually leads me to a question, my dear fellow Grist readers: Is there a good Web site out there that intentionally focuses on positive news about the environment and the successful actions that people and communities have taken to effect sustainable progress? &nbsp;</p><p>
I have no intention of sticking my head in the sand regarding all the alarming environmental news out there -- frankly, it would be impossible for one to do so if I wanted to. &nbsp;I just need, badly, a little more positive-news balance in my life. &nbsp;The flood of negative news out there threatens to throw me into a perpetual blue funk, potentially immobilizing me in my own depression.</p><p>
Therefore any recommedations regarding news sites that focus on the breakthroughs, the happy endings, and the David-vs-Goliath successes would be welcome. &nbsp;Append them below, if you please ...</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Martha Hagood</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:27:31 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Cheerier news</strong></p><p>I think the best I've felt in months was the day my design history students (having recently seen McDonough &amp; Braungart's "Next Industrial Revolution") presented their research projects, including repurposed bicycle furniture, cardboard disaster housing, and recycle-in-place garden benches. A wonderful young woman soldiered through an explanation of purified waste water and the role of worm compost in that process. I'm not sure she had it quite right, but the subject is definitely on the table!<br>
As for good news, I try to make my own by remaking my own life support systems along green lines, keeping climate change and direct action part of most of my relationships, calling my Senators... I'd like to do more. Some days I just read and learn, some days I pick up garbage, and I never miss a chance to vote. Over time, I'm hoping to refocus my professional life along more activist lines as well. One foot, then the next foot.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Cheerier news</strong></p><p>I think the best I've felt in months was the day my design history students (having recently seen McDonough &amp; Braungart's "Next Industrial Revolution") presented their research projects, including repurposed bicycle furniture, cardboard disaster housing, and recycle-in-place garden benches. A wonderful young woman soldiered through an explanation of purified waste water and the role of worm compost in that process. I'm not sure she had it quite right, but the subject is definitely on the table!<br>
As for good news, I try to make my own by remaking my own life support systems along green lines, keeping climate change and direct action part of most of my relationships, calling my Senators... I'd like to do more. Some days I just read and learn, some days I pick up garbage, and I never miss a chance to vote. Over time, I'm hoping to refocus my professional life along more activist lines as well. One foot, then the next foot.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by dayla2000</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:32:12 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Alternative Inspiration<p>Though at times Grist is laugh-out-loud funny, I agree that we also need to hear the uplifting stories of success. &nbsp;My suggestion shares more social successes than environmental (but it does make sure to share those often, too!)<p>
Check out: <a href="http://www.yesmagazine.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.yesmagazine.org <p>
Here's hoping to brighter days ahead!</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alternative Inspiration<p>Though at times Grist is laugh-out-loud funny, I agree that we also need to hear the uplifting stories of success. &nbsp;My suggestion shares more social successes than environmental (but it does make sure to share those often, too!)<p>
Check out: <a href="http://www.yesmagazine.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.yesmagazine.org <p>
Here's hoping to brighter days ahead!</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by trock</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:29:53 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>There's always something you can do</strong></p><p>I'm optimistic. &nbsp;I think the next best place to invest is in land that is 10 feet to 80 meters above ocean level. &nbsp;That's going to be the new coast line. &nbsp;Build the houses so they are able to move up the hill when needed as the coast moves.</p>
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				<p><strong>There's always something you can do</strong></p><p>I'm optimistic. &nbsp;I think the next best place to invest is in land that is 10 feet to 80 meters above ocean level. &nbsp;That's going to be the new coast line. &nbsp;Build the houses so they are able to move up the hill when needed as the coast moves.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Staale</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:24:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ray of hope?<p>I subscribe to the consistently informative (though usually not too cheerful) podcast "Radio Ecoshock", and a recent episode featured the speaker Paul Hawken at the Long Now conference earlier this year. &nbsp;I can't remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that looking at the science and the news, he cannot help feeling pessimistic, but at the same time, looking at the immense taxonomy of volunteer groups working for social justice, he cannot but feel optimistic.<p>
This was a very uplifting presentation - he outlined what he sees as the greatest movement in history - millions and millions of people all working for essentially the same goal: to stop conditions where "the future is stolen and sold to the present", e.g. in the form of short-term profits at the expense of environmental degradation. <p>
Hawken explores what he sees as a gradual awakening taking place, where this movement is gaining self-awareness. He likens this to the human immune system, which is strengthened by improved communication among its components (not that I have any science background with which to assess the aptness of his analogy...). As we gradually come to realize the myriad ways in which human rights, poverty, environmental issues, fairness and equity are interconnected, we begin to coordinate our efforts and pull in the same directions. Hawken doesn't claim to know what will happen, he's only reporting what he's seeing, but in doing so, he manages to inspire and give hope.<p>
Hmm... I'm not really doing justice to his talk, so I'll just stop here and instead point you to <a href="http://fora.tv/2007/06/08/Paul_Hawken_New_Great_Transformation" rel="nofollow">his actual talk. Hawken is part of the team that developed and runs the site <a href="http://www.wiserearth.org" rel="nofollow">WiserEarth, which is a portal for all the various organizations he talks about. Do check it out!</a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ray of hope?<p>I subscribe to the consistently informative (though usually not too cheerful) podcast "Radio Ecoshock", and a recent episode featured the speaker Paul Hawken at the Long Now conference earlier this year. &nbsp;I can't remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that looking at the science and the news, he cannot help feeling pessimistic, but at the same time, looking at the immense taxonomy of volunteer groups working for social justice, he cannot but feel optimistic.<p>
This was a very uplifting presentation - he outlined what he sees as the greatest movement in history - millions and millions of people all working for essentially the same goal: to stop conditions where "the future is stolen and sold to the present", e.g. in the form of short-term profits at the expense of environmental degradation. <p>
Hawken explores what he sees as a gradual awakening taking place, where this movement is gaining self-awareness. He likens this to the human immune system, which is strengthened by improved communication among its components (not that I have any science background with which to assess the aptness of his analogy...). As we gradually come to realize the myriad ways in which human rights, poverty, environmental issues, fairness and equity are interconnected, we begin to coordinate our efforts and pull in the same directions. Hawken doesn't claim to know what will happen, he's only reporting what he's seeing, but in doing so, he manages to inspire and give hope.<p>
Hmm... I'm not really doing justice to his talk, so I'll just stop here and instead point you to <a href="http://fora.tv/2007/06/08/Paul_Hawken_New_Great_Transformation" rel="nofollow">his actual talk. Hawken is part of the team that developed and runs the site <a href="http://www.wiserearth.org" rel="nofollow">WiserEarth, which is a portal for all the various organizations he talks about. Do check it out!</a></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by randino</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:47:56 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>A mixed week.</strong></p><p>The energy bill that came out of the Senate, set the bar for mediocrity at a new low level, and I have heard of no one in our camp that is just jumping up and down going goody goody about it. </p><p>
Bali is a tribute to the fact that you can bludgeon your enemies into submission, sooner or later. A whole bunch of things - many of them behind the scene - came together to make the deal. (1) The climate movement in the US is largely winning outside of the beltway. When one of our posters cannot find a denier in Texas who will debate him, you know things have changed. This is not to say that the enemy isn't still powerful. But david was right that the arc of history seems to bending our way. (2) Bush did not want to face an EU boycott of his dog and pony climate show later this year. <br>
(3) Bush was undercut by the prominent Americans who came to Bali to diss him and his obstructionism. (4) Bush's influence is melting faster than the glaciers, and I think you are not going to hear much more from him on the topic before that holy day arrives when the pr*ck leaves DC. </p><p>
But this will only work out if we make sure the GOP gets clobbered in 2008. &nbsp;</p><p>
The GOP must fall. 1-20-09.</p><p>
Randy Cunningham</br></p>
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				<p><strong>A mixed week.</strong></p><p>The energy bill that came out of the Senate, set the bar for mediocrity at a new low level, and I have heard of no one in our camp that is just jumping up and down going goody goody about it. </p><p>
Bali is a tribute to the fact that you can bludgeon your enemies into submission, sooner or later. A whole bunch of things - many of them behind the scene - came together to make the deal. (1) The climate movement in the US is largely winning outside of the beltway. When one of our posters cannot find a denier in Texas who will debate him, you know things have changed. This is not to say that the enemy isn't still powerful. But david was right that the arc of history seems to bending our way. (2) Bush did not want to face an EU boycott of his dog and pony climate show later this year. <br>
(3) Bush was undercut by the prominent Americans who came to Bali to diss him and his obstructionism. (4) Bush's influence is melting faster than the glaciers, and I think you are not going to hear much more from him on the topic before that holy day arrives when the pr*ck leaves DC. </p><p>
But this will only work out if we make sure the GOP gets clobbered in 2008. &nbsp;</p><p>
The GOP must fall. 1-20-09.</p><p>
Randy Cunningham</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by JoshS</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:52:39 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>I hear you GonzoDon<p>Here's a couple...<p>
Paul Hawken at GreenBuild this year...you have to fastforward a bit:<p>
<a href="http://www.greenbuild365.org/videos/video_gb06_2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenbuild365.org/videos/video_gb06_2.html<p>
And on the science, this won't reassure your inner Thoreau or even McKibben, but the Resilience Alliance is doing fantastic things:<p>
<a href="http://www.resalliance.org/1.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.resalliance.org/1.php</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I hear you GonzoDon<p>Here's a couple...<p>
Paul Hawken at GreenBuild this year...you have to fastforward a bit:<p>
<a href="http://www.greenbuild365.org/videos/video_gb06_2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenbuild365.org/videos/video_gb06_2.html<p>
And on the science, this won't reassure your inner Thoreau or even McKibben, but the Resilience Alliance is doing fantastic things:<p>
<a href="http://www.resalliance.org/1.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.resalliance.org/1.php</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by christophersj</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 02:14:57 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hey Gonzo Don -- Big Ideas for A Small Planet<p>Gonzo Don, here is a web site for a TV show (in High Def, no less) that does smart stories about positive green projects that are happening now. <p>
Big Ideas for a Small Planet<p>
<a href="http://www.sundancechannel.com/series/thegreen_bigideas" rel="nofollow">http://www.sundancechannel.com/series/thegreen_bigideas<p>
&nbsp;Clever little show. &nbsp;You can view full episodes!! &nbsp;The HD version runs on the Universal HD channel. &nbsp;The SD version runs on Sundance Channel and the website has webisodes.<br>
</br></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Hey Gonzo Don -- Big Ideas for A Small Planet<p>Gonzo Don, here is a web site for a TV show (in High Def, no less) that does smart stories about positive green projects that are happening now. <p>
Big Ideas for a Small Planet<p>
<a href="http://www.sundancechannel.com/series/thegreen_bigideas" rel="nofollow">http://www.sundancechannel.com/series/thegreen_bigideas<p>
&nbsp;Clever little show. &nbsp;You can view full episodes!! &nbsp;The HD version runs on the Universal HD channel. &nbsp;The SD version runs on Sundance Channel and the website has webisodes.<br>
</br></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by GonzoDon</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:03:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thanks Gristers</strong></p><p>for all your helpful suggestions above! &nbsp;I promise to check them out.</p><p>
In the meantime, soldier on. &nbsp;I'll sign off with these words from the late Ed Abbey:</p><p>
"Do not burn yourself out. &nbsp;Be as I am - a reluctant enthusiast... a part time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. &nbsp;Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. &nbsp;It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. &nbsp;While it is still there. &nbsp;</p><p>
"So get out there and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains. &nbsp;Run the rivers, breathe deep of that yet sweet and lucid air, sit quietly for a while and contemplate the precious stillness, that lovely, mysterious and awesome space. &nbsp;Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to your body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards."</p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks Gristers</strong></p><p>for all your helpful suggestions above! &nbsp;I promise to check them out.</p><p>
In the meantime, soldier on. &nbsp;I'll sign off with these words from the late Ed Abbey:</p><p>
"Do not burn yourself out. &nbsp;Be as I am - a reluctant enthusiast... a part time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. &nbsp;Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. &nbsp;It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. &nbsp;While it is still there. &nbsp;</p><p>
"So get out there and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains. &nbsp;Run the rivers, breathe deep of that yet sweet and lucid air, sit quietly for a while and contemplate the precious stillness, that lovely, mysterious and awesome space. &nbsp;Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to your body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards."</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by derek walters</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:46:34 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Pascal's Wager &amp; Global Warming<p>Scientists believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is much older.....but global warming data is only a slice from a couple thousand years, much less depending on which data one looks at. &nbsp;So we're supposed to radically transform our existence based on extrapolating this snapshot of data? Sounds very suspicious to me....however....<p>
I believe in global warming/climate change like many choose to believe in God via Pascal's Wager. &nbsp;It's a better "bet" to believe in it and do something about it because if it turns out to be true, you win. &nbsp;If it's false, and you still do something about it, you lose nothing (or not much). &nbsp;If you don't do anything about it, and it's true, you obviously lose. &nbsp;If you do nothing and it's false, you lose nothing - but this is the least desireable option/approach.<p>
Check it out:<p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager<p>
&nbsp;</p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Pascal's Wager &amp; Global Warming<p>Scientists believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is much older.....but global warming data is only a slice from a couple thousand years, much less depending on which data one looks at. &nbsp;So we're supposed to radically transform our existence based on extrapolating this snapshot of data? Sounds very suspicious to me....however....<p>
I believe in global warming/climate change like many choose to believe in God via Pascal's Wager. &nbsp;It's a better "bet" to believe in it and do something about it because if it turns out to be true, you win. &nbsp;If it's false, and you still do something about it, you lose nothing (or not much). &nbsp;If you don't do anything about it, and it's true, you obviously lose. &nbsp;If you do nothing and it's false, you lose nothing - but this is the least desireable option/approach.<p>
Check it out:<p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager<p>
&nbsp;</p></a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by earlysnows</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:00:29 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>good news for gonzo don</strong></p><p>Geography of Hope by Chris Turner, Random House, Canada, 2007, ISBN 978-0-679-31465-3, will give you a lift. All the technology is in place, political will is what is needed. It's an entertaining read at the same time.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;I think the glass is half full and momentum is filling the glass. I heard the talk by Paul Hawken and I think he's right about the many, many people and groups beavering away for the good the planet. <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Bali was only one stop of a planetary journey which will see the human species rise to the occasion.</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>good news for gonzo don</strong></p><p>Geography of Hope by Chris Turner, Random House, Canada, 2007, ISBN 978-0-679-31465-3, will give you a lift. All the technology is in place, political will is what is needed. It's an entertaining read at the same time.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;I think the glass is half full and momentum is filling the glass. I heard the talk by Paul Hawken and I think he's right about the many, many people and groups beavering away for the good the planet. <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Bali was only one stop of a planetary journey which will see the human species rise to the occasion.</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by kimri</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:25:34 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Websites about solutions<p>Hey-check out the Bioneers's blog at connect.bioneers.org for stories of what ordinary people are doing and can do to contribute to social change. You can also ask questions, talk about your own work and challenges and join or start a forum. More info on Bioneers at <a href="http://www.bioneers.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.bioneers.org.<p>
For an international perspective, check out Ode Magazine at <a href="http://www.odemagazine.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.odemagazine.com.<p>
(Full disclosure: I write for Bioneers and Ode and have been writing about social change for 15 years).<p>
Other books: The Impossible Will Take A Little While, by Paul Rogat Loeb and The Great Turning by David Korten and Unbowed by Wangari Mathaai. <p>
Yes to everything above about Paul Hawken--Blessed Unrest is an amazing book.<p>
&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Websites about solutions<p>Hey-check out the Bioneers's blog at connect.bioneers.org for stories of what ordinary people are doing and can do to contribute to social change. You can also ask questions, talk about your own work and challenges and join or start a forum. More info on Bioneers at <a href="http://www.bioneers.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.bioneers.org.<p>
For an international perspective, check out Ode Magazine at <a href="http://www.odemagazine.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.odemagazine.com.<p>
(Full disclosure: I write for Bioneers and Ode and have been writing about social change for 15 years).<p>
Other books: The Impossible Will Take A Little While, by Paul Rogat Loeb and The Great Turning by David Korten and Unbowed by Wangari Mathaai. <p>
Yes to everything above about Paul Hawken--Blessed Unrest is an amazing book.<p>
&nbsp;</p></p></p></p></a></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by rrecroc</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 04:55:19 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>Change</strong></p><p>Its pathetic that the US, which should be on the vanguard of change, now drags its feet and engages in the unreasonable simply to maintain the profits of its largest corporations.</p><p>
The american people will have to change their attitudes and values also. They cannot think they have an innate right to overconsume and waste resources.</p><p>
Materialism and consumption as a way of life will have to go ...... too bad for for all the advertising companies who daily tell you things you can buy will change who and what you are.</p>
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				<p><strong>Change</strong></p><p>Its pathetic that the US, which should be on the vanguard of change, now drags its feet and engages in the unreasonable simply to maintain the profits of its largest corporations.</p><p>
The american people will have to change their attitudes and values also. They cannot think they have an innate right to overconsume and waste resources.</p><p>
Materialism and consumption as a way of life will have to go ...... too bad for for all the advertising companies who daily tell you things you can buy will change who and what you are.</p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by mat</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 05:40:24 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>go rrecroc! go pogo!</strong></p><p></p><p>
right on! power to the people!</p><p>
the antiestablishment to the rescue!</p>
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				<p><strong>go rrecroc! go pogo!</strong></p><p></p><p>
right on! power to the people!</p><p>
the antiestablishment to the rescue!</p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by DaveGreenAndRed</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 06:06:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/15</guid>
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				<p><strong>Victory for Bush</strong></p><p>I am surprised by the way many greens are interpreting the events at Bali. &nbsp;I guess people have forgotten Rio and Kyoto, or are too young to know what happened there. </p><p>
The US strategy at Rio, Kyoto, and Bali (and elsewhere) has been to go in very tough, and stay tough. &nbsp;Eventually the other countries cave in and the agreement gets weakened. &nbsp;</p><p>
And then the US fails to ratify/comply with the weakened agreement in any event. &nbsp;On this point, please note the warning shot reported at the end of the article: "Just hours after the deal was reached, the White House expressed "serious concerns" about it."</p><p>
Upshot: the agreement gets weakened (thus protecting the international financial interests of Big Oil, the GOP's only true constituency) and the US doesn't feel any need to comply in any event.</p><p>
How Avaaz and others can claim this is a victory is beyond me. &nbsp;</p><p>
The only victory we will ever get with GOP in the white house - and perhaps with the Dems - is if the rest of the world creates a strong climate treaty and enforces it (againt countries who refuse to sign, ratify and comply) by using trade sanctions. &nbsp;These were the teeth behind the CFC treaties, which are by far the most successful (only successful?) environmental treaties.</p>
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				<p><strong>Victory for Bush</strong></p><p>I am surprised by the way many greens are interpreting the events at Bali. &nbsp;I guess people have forgotten Rio and Kyoto, or are too young to know what happened there. </p><p>
The US strategy at Rio, Kyoto, and Bali (and elsewhere) has been to go in very tough, and stay tough. &nbsp;Eventually the other countries cave in and the agreement gets weakened. &nbsp;</p><p>
And then the US fails to ratify/comply with the weakened agreement in any event. &nbsp;On this point, please note the warning shot reported at the end of the article: "Just hours after the deal was reached, the White House expressed "serious concerns" about it."</p><p>
Upshot: the agreement gets weakened (thus protecting the international financial interests of Big Oil, the GOP's only true constituency) and the US doesn't feel any need to comply in any event.</p><p>
How Avaaz and others can claim this is a victory is beyond me. &nbsp;</p><p>
The only victory we will ever get with GOP in the white house - and perhaps with the Dems - is if the rest of the world creates a strong climate treaty and enforces it (againt countries who refuse to sign, ratify and comply) by using trade sanctions. &nbsp;These were the teeth behind the CFC treaties, which are by far the most successful (only successful?) environmental treaties.</p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:33:13 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/16</guid>
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				<p><strong>Bali Was An Absolute Failure</strong></p><p>To characterize the lack of any substantial agreement at Bali as anything other than an abject failure is just plain wrong. &nbsp;According to Friends of the Earth, a mainstream environmental group, the agreement reached could actually lead to an INCREASE in greenhouse gas emissions. &nbsp;Bali was a complete failure due to U.S. intransigence.</p><p>
Despite the U.S. refusal to lower its own emissions, the other countries have no excuse for not agreeing to lower theirs. &nbsp;Yes, the U.S. emits more than anyone else except China so without the U.S. lowering its emissions there would still be a lot of greenhouse gas emissions, but any lowering of emissions would be a good thing, and the rest of the world had a good chance to really isolate the U.S. and failed to use it.</p>
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				<p><strong>Bali Was An Absolute Failure</strong></p><p>To characterize the lack of any substantial agreement at Bali as anything other than an abject failure is just plain wrong. &nbsp;According to Friends of the Earth, a mainstream environmental group, the agreement reached could actually lead to an INCREASE in greenhouse gas emissions. &nbsp;Bali was a complete failure due to U.S. intransigence.</p><p>
Despite the U.S. refusal to lower its own emissions, the other countries have no excuse for not agreeing to lower theirs. &nbsp;Yes, the U.S. emits more than anyone else except China so without the U.S. lowering its emissions there would still be a lot of greenhouse gas emissions, but any lowering of emissions would be a good thing, and the rest of the world had a good chance to really isolate the U.S. and failed to use it.</p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by rrecroc</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:18:05 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/17</guid>
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				<p><strong>I'll Believe It When ....</strong></p><p>People stop driving monstrous size vehicles with one person in the vehicle ..... stop wandering the roads with no purpose like a bunch of gypsies, stop taking unnecessary flights, stop living to consume, can't get enough of anything, etc, etc </p>
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				<p><strong>I'll Believe It When ....</strong></p><p>People stop driving monstrous size vehicles with one person in the vehicle ..... stop wandering the roads with no purpose like a bunch of gypsies, stop taking unnecessary flights, stop living to consume, can't get enough of anything, etc, etc </p>
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            <title>Comment #18 by Growthbuster</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:12:53 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-day-at-the-beach-in-bali/18</guid>
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				<p><strong>We need more outrage</strong></p><p>I have to agree with wolverine that U.S. performance in Bali was dismal. And while it will feel good to medicate with bits and pieces of good news about pockets of good deeds, we must unfortunately focus on eradicating the bad deeds. When you're in battle, under fire, turning one's back on the attackers is not generally a successful strategy.</p><p>
Our successful survival, our compassion for our descendents, our responsibility to other life forms on Earth, all require drastic efforts on multiple fronts. These include conservation, movement to non-carbon-based fuels, reduced consumption, and eschewing our addictions to economic and population growth.</p>
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				<p><strong>We need more outrage</strong></p><p>I have to agree with wolverine that U.S. performance in Bali was dismal. And while it will feel good to medicate with bits and pieces of good news about pockets of good deeds, we must unfortunately focus on eradicating the bad deeds. When you're in battle, under fire, turning one's back on the attackers is not generally a successful strategy.</p><p>
Our successful survival, our compassion for our descendents, our responsibility to other life forms on Earth, all require drastic efforts on multiple fronts. These include conservation, movement to non-carbon-based fuels, reduced consumption, and eschewing our addictions to economic and population growth.</p>
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