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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Prying kids away from TV and video games costs ... $100 million?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 05:57:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Outdoor kindergarten</strong></p><p>A friend sent me a story about a school (a Waldorf school in Portland Ore., I think) that is starting an all-outdoor kindergarten! &nbsp;That's the best thing I've heard of in a long time. &nbsp;</p><p>
(Although how they're going to fill in the bubbles on those standardized tests is a mystery ... &nbsp;;^)

<p>Save the world:  Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Outdoor kindergarten</strong></p><p>A friend sent me a story about a school (a Waldorf school in Portland Ore., I think) that is starting an all-outdoor kindergarten! &nbsp;That's the best thing I've heard of in a long time. &nbsp;</p><p>
(Although how they're going to fill in the bubbles on those standardized tests is a mystery ... &nbsp;;^)

<p>Save the world:  Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:27:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>waldorf<p>Yes, Waldorf schools in general really get it, re: the whole child, and what's good for their development. It's the public, mainstream institutions that face the biggest challenge on what to do. Even the schoolyards themselves are less wild than ever these days. 

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>waldorf<p>Yes, Waldorf schools in general really get it, re: the whole child, and what's good for their development. It's the public, mainstream institutions that face the biggest challenge on what to do. Even the schoolyards themselves are less wild than ever these days. 

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by glattonfolly</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 06:07:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>The problem is twofold</strong></p><p>This issue is a public health problem and a conservation problem. &nbsp;</p><p>
As kids get more disconnected from nature, the rates of childhood obesity, attention deficits, and juvenile diabetes increase. &nbsp;This represents an opportunity as pretty much everybody (outside of DC) can agree that we care about the health of children. &nbsp;If we reconnect kids to nature, we will see their health improve. &nbsp; </p><p>
The second part of the problem is the need for conservation leadership in the future. &nbsp;If kids are no longer connected with nature, who will give a damn about the parks and the forests in 20 years? &nbsp;Who will the leaders be, not only to protect habitat and wildlife, but to deal with the impacts of global warming? &nbsp;</p><p>
The good news is that Rich Louv's fine book, built in part with the research of many folks over the past couple decades has sparked a movement that is growing, giving us reason for hope.

<p>childrenandnature.blogspot.com</p></p>
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				<p><strong>The problem is twofold</strong></p><p>This issue is a public health problem and a conservation problem. &nbsp;</p><p>
As kids get more disconnected from nature, the rates of childhood obesity, attention deficits, and juvenile diabetes increase. &nbsp;This represents an opportunity as pretty much everybody (outside of DC) can agree that we care about the health of children. &nbsp;If we reconnect kids to nature, we will see their health improve. &nbsp; </p><p>
The second part of the problem is the need for conservation leadership in the future. &nbsp;If kids are no longer connected with nature, who will give a damn about the parks and the forests in 20 years? &nbsp;Who will the leaders be, not only to protect habitat and wildlife, but to deal with the impacts of global warming? &nbsp;</p><p>
The good news is that Rich Louv's fine book, built in part with the research of many folks over the past couple decades has sparked a movement that is growing, giving us reason for hope.

<p>childrenandnature.blogspot.com</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by EAR</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:58:00 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>German Outdoor Kindergarten</strong></p><p>My 3 year old attends an outdoor kindergarten here in Germany. Similar to the Waldorf school mentioned, just that the hours are 8am - 5pm every day all year for kids 3-6 years old, making it a possibility for those who work full time. It's wonderful, the kids spend the whole morning outside in the forest, come in for lunch and a nap, and play some more inside or outside in the afternoon.</p><p>
I am surprised and disappointed that this kind of kindergarten hasn't even started to emerge in the states. Given the abounding problems facing young children, this would be a great way to hit those problems where it hurts. I would also like to move back "home" at some point, but I can't image sending my kids to any other kind of kindergarten. </p>
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				<p><strong>German Outdoor Kindergarten</strong></p><p>My 3 year old attends an outdoor kindergarten here in Germany. Similar to the Waldorf school mentioned, just that the hours are 8am - 5pm every day all year for kids 3-6 years old, making it a possibility for those who work full time. It's wonderful, the kids spend the whole morning outside in the forest, come in for lunch and a nap, and play some more inside or outside in the afternoon.</p><p>
I am surprised and disappointed that this kind of kindergarten hasn't even started to emerge in the states. Given the abounding problems facing young children, this would be a great way to hit those problems where it hurts. I would also like to move back "home" at some point, but I can't image sending my kids to any other kind of kindergarten. </p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by mjvande</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:04:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;No Child Left Indoors&quot;<p>Last Child in the Woods -- <br>
Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder,<br>
by Richard Louv<br>
Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.<br>
November 16, 2006<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In this eloquent and comprehensive work, Louv makes a convincing case for ensuring that children (and adults) maintain access to pristine natural areas, and even, when those are not available, any bit of nature that we can preserve, such as vacant lots. I agree with him 100%. Just as we never really outgrow our need for our parents (and grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.), humanity has never outgrown, and can never outgrow, our need for the companionship and mutual benefits of other species.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But what strikes me most about this book is how Louv is able, in spite of 310 pages of text, to completely ignore the two most obvious problems with his thesis: (1) We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us! In fact, most species of wildlife obviously do not like having humans around, and can thrive only if we leave them alone! Or they are able tolerate our presence, but only within certain limits. (2) We and Louv never ask what type of contact is appropriate! He includes fishing, hunting, building "forts", farming, ranching, and all other manner of recreation. Clearly, not all contact with nature leads to someone becoming an advocate and protector of wildlife. While one kid may see a beautiful area and decide to protect it, what's to stop another from seeing it and thinking of it as a great place to build a house or create a ski resort? Developers and industrialists must come from somewhere, and they no doubt played in the woods with the future environmentalists!<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is obvious, and not a particularly new idea, that we must experience wilderness in order to appreciate it. But it is equally true, though ("conveniently") never mentioned, that we need to stay out of nature, if the wildlife that live there are to survive. I discuss this issue thoroughly in the essay, "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans!", at <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3" rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It should also be obvious (but apparently isn't) that how we interact with nature determines how we think about it and how we learn to treat it. Remember, children don't learn so much what we tell them, but they learn very well what they see us do. Fishing, building "forts", mountain biking, and even berry-picking teach us that nature exists for us to exploit. Luckily, my fort-building career was cut short by a bee-sting! As I was about to cut down a tree to lay a third layer of logs on my little log cabin in the woods, I took one swing at the trunk with my axe, and immediately got a painful sting (there must have been a bee-hive in the tree) and ran away as fast as I could.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On page 144 Louv quotes Rasheed Salahuddin: "Nature has been taken over by thugs who care absolutely nothing about it. We need to take nature back." Then he titles his next chapter "Where Will Future Stewards of Nature Come From?" Where indeed? While fishing may bring one into contact with natural beauty, that message can be eclipsed by the more salient one that the fish exist to pleasure and feed humans (even if we release them after we catch them). (My fishing career was also short-lived, perhaps because I spent most of the time either waiting for fish that never came, or untangling fishing line.) Mountain bikers claim that they are "nature-lovers" and are "just hikers on wheels". But if you watch one of their helmet-camera videos, it is easy to see that 99.44% of their attention must be devoted to controlling their bike, or they will crash. Children initiated into mountain biking may learn to identify a plant or two, but by far the strongest message they will receive is that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable. It's not! <p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On page 184 Louv recommends that kids carry cell phones. First of all, cell phones transmit on essentially the same frequency as a microwave oven, and are therefore hazardous to one's health -- especially for children, whose skulls are still relatively thin. Second, there is nothing that will spoil one's experience of nature faster than something that reminds one of the city and the "civilized" world. The last thing one wants while enjoying nature is to be reminded of the world outside. Nothing will ruin a hike or a picnic faster than hearing a radio or the ring of a cell phone, or seeing a headset, cell phone, or mountain bike. I've been enjoying nature for over 60 years, and can't remember a single time when I felt a need for any of these items.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It's clear that we humans need to reduce our impacts on wildlife, if they, and hence we, are to survive. But it is repugnant and arguably inhumane to restrict human access to nature. Therefore, we need to practice minimal-impact recreation (i.e., hiking only), and leave our technology (if we need it at all!) at home. In other words, we need to decrease the quantity of contact with nature, and increase the quality.<p>
References:<p>
Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House, 1981.<p>
Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State University Press, 1987.<p>
Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An Ecological History of North America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove Press, 2001.<p>
Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony Books, 1991.<p>
Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, 1995.<p>
Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy: Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo, California, 1994.<p>
Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc., 1973.<p>
Vandeman, Michael J., <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ecocity3," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ecocity3, <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3, <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8, and <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/goodall" rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/goodall.<p>
Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.<p>
"The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The Cenozoic Society, 1994.<p>
Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2002.<p>
Abstract:<p>
It is anthropocentric thinking, and irresponsible, to promote the invasion of wildlife habitat without considering: (1) We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us! In fact, most species of wildlife obviously do not like having humans around, and can thrive only if we leave them alone! Or they are able tolerate our presence, but only within certain limits. (2) We and Louv never ask what type of contact is appropriate! He includes fishing, hunting, building "forts", farming, ranching, and all other manner of recreation. Clearly, not all contact with nature leads to someone becoming an advocate and protector of wildlife. While one kid may see a beautiful area and decide to protect it, what's to stop another from seeing it and thinking of it as a great place to build a house or create a ski resort? Developers and industrialists must come from somewhere, and they no doubt played in the woods with the future environmentalists!<br>


<p>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></a></a></a></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;No Child Left Indoors&quot;<p>Last Child in the Woods -- <br>
Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder,<br>
by Richard Louv<br>
Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.<br>
November 16, 2006<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In this eloquent and comprehensive work, Louv makes a convincing case for ensuring that children (and adults) maintain access to pristine natural areas, and even, when those are not available, any bit of nature that we can preserve, such as vacant lots. I agree with him 100%. Just as we never really outgrow our need for our parents (and grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.), humanity has never outgrown, and can never outgrow, our need for the companionship and mutual benefits of other species.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; But what strikes me most about this book is how Louv is able, in spite of 310 pages of text, to completely ignore the two most obvious problems with his thesis: (1) We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us! In fact, most species of wildlife obviously do not like having humans around, and can thrive only if we leave them alone! Or they are able tolerate our presence, but only within certain limits. (2) We and Louv never ask what type of contact is appropriate! He includes fishing, hunting, building "forts", farming, ranching, and all other manner of recreation. Clearly, not all contact with nature leads to someone becoming an advocate and protector of wildlife. While one kid may see a beautiful area and decide to protect it, what's to stop another from seeing it and thinking of it as a great place to build a house or create a ski resort? Developers and industrialists must come from somewhere, and they no doubt played in the woods with the future environmentalists!<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is obvious, and not a particularly new idea, that we must experience wilderness in order to appreciate it. But it is equally true, though ("conveniently") never mentioned, that we need to stay out of nature, if the wildlife that live there are to survive. I discuss this issue thoroughly in the essay, "Wildlife Need Habitat Off-Limits to Humans!", at <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3" rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It should also be obvious (but apparently isn't) that how we interact with nature determines how we think about it and how we learn to treat it. Remember, children don't learn so much what we tell them, but they learn very well what they see us do. Fishing, building "forts", mountain biking, and even berry-picking teach us that nature exists for us to exploit. Luckily, my fort-building career was cut short by a bee-sting! As I was about to cut down a tree to lay a third layer of logs on my little log cabin in the woods, I took one swing at the trunk with my axe, and immediately got a painful sting (there must have been a bee-hive in the tree) and ran away as fast as I could.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On page 144 Louv quotes Rasheed Salahuddin: "Nature has been taken over by thugs who care absolutely nothing about it. We need to take nature back." Then he titles his next chapter "Where Will Future Stewards of Nature Come From?" Where indeed? While fishing may bring one into contact with natural beauty, that message can be eclipsed by the more salient one that the fish exist to pleasure and feed humans (even if we release them after we catch them). (My fishing career was also short-lived, perhaps because I spent most of the time either waiting for fish that never came, or untangling fishing line.) Mountain bikers claim that they are "nature-lovers" and are "just hikers on wheels". But if you watch one of their helmet-camera videos, it is easy to see that 99.44% of their attention must be devoted to controlling their bike, or they will crash. Children initiated into mountain biking may learn to identify a plant or two, but by far the strongest message they will receive is that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable. It's not! <p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On page 184 Louv recommends that kids carry cell phones. First of all, cell phones transmit on essentially the same frequency as a microwave oven, and are therefore hazardous to one's health -- especially for children, whose skulls are still relatively thin. Second, there is nothing that will spoil one's experience of nature faster than something that reminds one of the city and the "civilized" world. The last thing one wants while enjoying nature is to be reminded of the world outside. Nothing will ruin a hike or a picnic faster than hearing a radio or the ring of a cell phone, or seeing a headset, cell phone, or mountain bike. I've been enjoying nature for over 60 years, and can't remember a single time when I felt a need for any of these items.<p>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It's clear that we humans need to reduce our impacts on wildlife, if they, and hence we, are to survive. But it is repugnant and arguably inhumane to restrict human access to nature. Therefore, we need to practice minimal-impact recreation (i.e., hiking only), and leave our technology (if we need it at all!) at home. In other words, we need to decrease the quantity of contact with nature, and increase the quality.<p>
References:<p>
Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House, 1981.<p>
Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State University Press, 1987.<p>
Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An Ecological History of North America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove Press, 2001.<p>
Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony Books, 1991.<p>
Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, 1995.<p>
Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy: Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo, California, 1994.<p>
Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc., 1973.<p>
Vandeman, Michael J., <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ecocity3," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/ecocity3, <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3, <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8," rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8, and <a href="http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/goodall" rel="nofollow">http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/goodall.<p>
Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.<p>
"The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The Cenozoic Society, 1994.<p>
Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2002.<p>
Abstract:<p>
It is anthropocentric thinking, and irresponsible, to promote the invasion of wildlife habitat without considering: (1) We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us! In fact, most species of wildlife obviously do not like having humans around, and can thrive only if we leave them alone! Or they are able tolerate our presence, but only within certain limits. (2) We and Louv never ask what type of contact is appropriate! He includes fishing, hunting, building "forts", farming, ranching, and all other manner of recreation. Clearly, not all contact with nature leads to someone becoming an advocate and protector of wildlife. While one kid may see a beautiful area and decide to protect it, what's to stop another from seeing it and thinking of it as a great place to build a house or create a ski resort? Developers and industrialists must come from somewhere, and they no doubt played in the woods with the future environmentalists!<br>


<p>http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande</p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></a></a></a></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 05:05:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>exploitation and abuse</strong></p><p>Thanks, Michael, for your interesting comments, with which I am inclined to agree -- without, however, failing to appreciate the concern of Erik and Louv. &nbsp;I do not have children myself, so this is not a problem that I have had to deal with. &nbsp;But my guess is, it is good for children to have plenty of time walking through trees and on beaches and over hills, so long as they are given some basic instruction about what they are experiencing, especially the living creatures that they may encounter, and so long as they are clearly told not to abuse or destroy.</p><p>
Our own Biodiversivist sounds like an excellent parent in this regard. &nbsp;I wish I could have had a father like him. &nbsp;Not that I would wish on him having a child like me! : )</p><p>
When I was starting high school, we moved from the city (Philadelphia) to a single suburban house in a development cut out of an old Gatsby-era millionaire's estate. &nbsp;The hill behind our house was undeveloped, and some distance over it stood the abandoned Italianate mansion. &nbsp;I was not an out-doorsy explorer: the two or three times that I ventured up that hill, through the trees, I came back with poison ivy, which confirmed in my mind that there was not much point in exploring.</p><p>
On the other hand, I loved observing the wildlife of those woods from inside the house. &nbsp;There were raccoons, skunks, snakes, and occasionally a deer. &nbsp;But my favorites were the pheasants (Phasianus colchicus; non-native), whole families of which would cross our backyard in peace. &nbsp;I could watch them forever. &nbsp;And so, imagine how appalled I was, when my cousin visited us, and he expressed surprise that we made no attempt to hunt, kill and eat our pheasants! &nbsp;Of course, his father my uncle had made the same stupid remark on another occasion.</p><p>
My cousin, by the way, went on to become a chemical engineer, specializing in petroleum, and has made a career with Sun Oil.</p><p>
In yesterday's NY Times, in the Week in Review section, Charles McGrath has an amusing little review of an odd old (faux-old, really) book that has been trundled out, "The Dangerous Book for Boys," by Conn and Hal Iggulden. &nbsp;Apparently it is a sort of how-to book which teaches little that one would think might interest boys, and very little that is at all dangerous. &nbsp;Even odder, the film rights have been purchased, and it is going to be turned into a movie, with some kind of narrative composed to sustain it. &nbsp;McGrath writes:</p><p>
&lt;&lt;<br>
Since the book has no story, writers will have to be hired to dream one up. &nbsp;A report in Variety suggested that the plot of the movie is likely to involve fathers who struggle to balance their instinctive need to protect and their offspring's craving for adventure, even though the evidence mostly suggests that these days it is the sons who are risk averse, unwilling to unplug themselves from their iPods, and the parents who are eager for their offspring to go outside and have some old-fashioned fun.<br>
&gt;&gt;</p><p>
On the matter of boys specifically, and not just all children together, irrespective of gender: Are we having a testosterone crisis in our culture? &nbsp;On the one hand, it seems there is ample evidence that when we send men and boys out into the outdoors, life is simply not worth living for them unless they can interpret the entire experience as a serious game, a competition, in which there will be a winner and a loser, and in which they hope to display their impressive manhood. &nbsp;On the other hand, we dread that our sons are turning into a generation of soft, shrinking, closeted wimps. &nbsp;So what is really going on?

<p>Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!</p></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>exploitation and abuse</strong></p><p>Thanks, Michael, for your interesting comments, with which I am inclined to agree -- without, however, failing to appreciate the concern of Erik and Louv. &nbsp;I do not have children myself, so this is not a problem that I have had to deal with. &nbsp;But my guess is, it is good for children to have plenty of time walking through trees and on beaches and over hills, so long as they are given some basic instruction about what they are experiencing, especially the living creatures that they may encounter, and so long as they are clearly told not to abuse or destroy.</p><p>
Our own Biodiversivist sounds like an excellent parent in this regard. &nbsp;I wish I could have had a father like him. &nbsp;Not that I would wish on him having a child like me! : )</p><p>
When I was starting high school, we moved from the city (Philadelphia) to a single suburban house in a development cut out of an old Gatsby-era millionaire's estate. &nbsp;The hill behind our house was undeveloped, and some distance over it stood the abandoned Italianate mansion. &nbsp;I was not an out-doorsy explorer: the two or three times that I ventured up that hill, through the trees, I came back with poison ivy, which confirmed in my mind that there was not much point in exploring.</p><p>
On the other hand, I loved observing the wildlife of those woods from inside the house. &nbsp;There were raccoons, skunks, snakes, and occasionally a deer. &nbsp;But my favorites were the pheasants (Phasianus colchicus; non-native), whole families of which would cross our backyard in peace. &nbsp;I could watch them forever. &nbsp;And so, imagine how appalled I was, when my cousin visited us, and he expressed surprise that we made no attempt to hunt, kill and eat our pheasants! &nbsp;Of course, his father my uncle had made the same stupid remark on another occasion.</p><p>
My cousin, by the way, went on to become a chemical engineer, specializing in petroleum, and has made a career with Sun Oil.</p><p>
In yesterday's NY Times, in the Week in Review section, Charles McGrath has an amusing little review of an odd old (faux-old, really) book that has been trundled out, "The Dangerous Book for Boys," by Conn and Hal Iggulden. &nbsp;Apparently it is a sort of how-to book which teaches little that one would think might interest boys, and very little that is at all dangerous. &nbsp;Even odder, the film rights have been purchased, and it is going to be turned into a movie, with some kind of narrative composed to sustain it. &nbsp;McGrath writes:</p><p>
&lt;&lt;<br>
Since the book has no story, writers will have to be hired to dream one up. &nbsp;A report in Variety suggested that the plot of the movie is likely to involve fathers who struggle to balance their instinctive need to protect and their offspring's craving for adventure, even though the evidence mostly suggests that these days it is the sons who are risk averse, unwilling to unplug themselves from their iPods, and the parents who are eager for their offspring to go outside and have some old-fashioned fun.<br>
&gt;&gt;</p><p>
On the matter of boys specifically, and not just all children together, irrespective of gender: Are we having a testosterone crisis in our culture? &nbsp;On the one hand, it seems there is ample evidence that when we send men and boys out into the outdoors, life is simply not worth living for them unless they can interpret the entire experience as a serious game, a competition, in which there will be a winner and a loser, and in which they hope to display their impressive manhood. &nbsp;On the other hand, we dread that our sons are turning into a generation of soft, shrinking, closeted wimps. &nbsp;So what is really going on?

<p>Chickens are our cousins!
So are other sensitive animals!
Enough is enough!
No more factory farms!</p></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:57:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/no-child-left-inside/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>what's appropriate<p>mjvande: Thanks for your response. But I'm afraid you'd be shocked to find out how many kids raised to hunt and fish (and gather mushrooms and clams and whatever) turn out to be conservationists later in life. They look at nature as a resource first, and then come to appreciate it. Which is why some are distressed that so few kids are learning about the outdoors in these manners of late.<p>
By contrast, I'd wager that very few kids come to the natural world from a beauty perspective and then "decide to protect it."<p>
Anyhow, Louv doesn't promote interaction with wildlife as a way of connecting them to nature. My reading of his work is that parks, preserves, and the miscellaneous wild places right in kids' neighborhoods are the real focus, minor places where a sense of wonder can be sparked and nurtured by things like snails, butterflies, and wispy dandelion heads.<p>
Your note that "We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us!" seems to put humans and the rest of nature in two camps, which is never helpful. Most forms of wildlife don't want contact with other forms, either, especially when predation is in the picture. <br>
&nbsp;

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>what's appropriate<p>mjvande: Thanks for your response. But I'm afraid you'd be shocked to find out how many kids raised to hunt and fish (and gather mushrooms and clams and whatever) turn out to be conservationists later in life. They look at nature as a resource first, and then come to appreciate it. Which is why some are distressed that so few kids are learning about the outdoors in these manners of late.<p>
By contrast, I'd wager that very few kids come to the natural world from a beauty perspective and then "decide to protect it."<p>
Anyhow, Louv doesn't promote interaction with wildlife as a way of connecting them to nature. My reading of his work is that parks, preserves, and the miscellaneous wild places right in kids' neighborhoods are the real focus, minor places where a sense of wonder can be sparked and nurtured by things like snails, butterflies, and wispy dandelion heads.<p>
Your note that "We want and need to have contact with other species, but neither we nor Louv bother to ask whether they want to have contact with us!" seems to put humans and the rest of nature in two camps, which is never helpful. Most forms of wildlife don't want contact with other forms, either, especially when predation is in the picture. <br>
&nbsp;

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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