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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Climate campaigners warm to &#8220;advanced coal&#8221; and sequestration, despite Bush backing]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:38:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Vey good article that.<p>Gasification of coal is old technology. I can see <a href="http://www.cityofseattle.net/parks/parkspaces/GASWORKS.htm" rel="nofollow">gas works park from my house.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Vey good article that.<p>Gasification of coal is old technology. I can see <a href="http://www.cityofseattle.net/parks/parkspaces/GASWORKS.htm" rel="nofollow">gas works park from my house.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by trouserdude</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:42:21 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Dirty Coal</strong></p><p>To repeat the concern that had a short mention in this article, coal is not clean (especially while mountaintop removal is around). &nbsp;We have got the technology to commit to renewables while cleaning up the old coal plants. &nbsp;It does not make sense to me why we would so heavily invest in one new coal-fired power plants, we've got hundreds of old ones to clean-up until we build our renewable energy infrastructure. </p><p>
Any claim to "clean coal" has got to take extraction as well as burning into account. &nbsp;I don't believe there even is such a thing though. &nbsp;Seems to be more a Public Relations phrase than a reality.</p>
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				<p><strong>Dirty Coal</strong></p><p>To repeat the concern that had a short mention in this article, coal is not clean (especially while mountaintop removal is around). &nbsp;We have got the technology to commit to renewables while cleaning up the old coal plants. &nbsp;It does not make sense to me why we would so heavily invest in one new coal-fired power plants, we've got hundreds of old ones to clean-up until we build our renewable energy infrastructure. </p><p>
Any claim to "clean coal" has got to take extraction as well as burning into account. &nbsp;I don't believe there even is such a thing though. &nbsp;Seems to be more a Public Relations phrase than a reality.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by greenenergygirl</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:24:59 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>yeah</strong></p><p>Right on Trouserdude!</p>
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				<p><strong>yeah</strong></p><p>Right on Trouserdude!</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Overload</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:18:30 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Enviro buy-in and sell-out is too real<p>Oh, it's real, all right.<p>Coal Gasification is real. &nbsp;I represent some folks who will have the Mesaba coal gasification plant, trains, transmission, gas and HUGE water pipeline in their yard, on a pristine site right by Bovey, MN, up north in the woods. &nbsp;Greenfield site chosen when legislation required brownfield. &nbsp;Developers get every perk in the book and then some. &nbsp;Don't have to prove "need" and legislature mandated a power purchase agreement because there's no market. &nbsp;We all get to pay for it.<p>It's real, emissions are good, BUT water is a serious problem, the predecessor plant, Wabash River, is "routinely" in violation of it's water permit, selenium, cyanide, and arsenic. &nbsp;Mesaba will use 6,500 gallons a minute.<p>Enviro/Coal COALition is real, it's a sequestration love fest, an excuse to buy in to coal and allow new coal plants to be built for a too small share of transmission capacity -- without having to front the capital for transmission. &nbsp;See<br><a href="http://northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland/archives/2005/11/waltons_me2_cleanwi_cub_-_whatever_are_they_thinking.html" rel="nofollow">http://northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland/archives/ ...<br>They're relying on sequestration, but sequestration ain't happenin' in the granite up north! &nbsp;And meanwhile, there are so many coal plants waiting in the MISO queue, Big Stone II is applied for and moving forward; new Waterloo, IA plant proposed; maybe Durand, WI; Belfield, ND, etc., so it's not as if Mesaba (with no sequestration) or any other coal gasification is replacing old coal or eliminating new. &nbsp;So why sell out and accept less than optimum? &nbsp;Something that isn't workable in MN?<p>...and also search my site for Mesaba, gasification, "Two Lobbyists and a Wife" and "Transmission Omnibus Bill from Hell" (SF 1368) !!!<p>Here we've got more generation than we need, we're in the enviable position of being able to choose our sources, and look what's happening.<p>It's all connected, and it's all too real.<p>Carol<br>northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland</br></p></p></p></p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Enviro buy-in and sell-out is too real<p>Oh, it's real, all right.<p>Coal Gasification is real. &nbsp;I represent some folks who will have the Mesaba coal gasification plant, trains, transmission, gas and HUGE water pipeline in their yard, on a pristine site right by Bovey, MN, up north in the woods. &nbsp;Greenfield site chosen when legislation required brownfield. &nbsp;Developers get every perk in the book and then some. &nbsp;Don't have to prove "need" and legislature mandated a power purchase agreement because there's no market. &nbsp;We all get to pay for it.<p>It's real, emissions are good, BUT water is a serious problem, the predecessor plant, Wabash River, is "routinely" in violation of it's water permit, selenium, cyanide, and arsenic. &nbsp;Mesaba will use 6,500 gallons a minute.<p>Enviro/Coal COALition is real, it's a sequestration love fest, an excuse to buy in to coal and allow new coal plants to be built for a too small share of transmission capacity -- without having to front the capital for transmission. &nbsp;See<br><a href="http://northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland/archives/2005/11/waltons_me2_cleanwi_cub_-_whatever_are_they_thinking.html" rel="nofollow">http://northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland/archives/ ...<br>They're relying on sequestration, but sequestration ain't happenin' in the granite up north! &nbsp;And meanwhile, there are so many coal plants waiting in the MISO queue, Big Stone II is applied for and moving forward; new Waterloo, IA plant proposed; maybe Durand, WI; Belfield, ND, etc., so it's not as if Mesaba (with no sequestration) or any other coal gasification is replacing old coal or eliminating new. &nbsp;So why sell out and accept less than optimum? &nbsp;Something that isn't workable in MN?<p>...and also search my site for Mesaba, gasification, "Two Lobbyists and a Wife" and "Transmission Omnibus Bill from Hell" (SF 1368) !!!<p>Here we've got more generation than we need, we're in the enviable position of being able to choose our sources, and look what's happening.<p>It's all connected, and it's all too real.<p>Carol<br>northfield.org/blogs/caroloverland</br></p></p></p></p></br></a></br></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:02:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>So much wind!!<p>So much wind power in our region, and this is what we get? &nbsp;More coal? &nbsp;It's alarming and disgusting.<p>
Check out the latest good news on renewable power. &nbsp;Electric cars in the 100s of millions will solve the problem of storing inconstant wind generated electricity.<p>
<a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/19/1455214.html" rel="nofollow">http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/19/1455214.html<p>
The northern midwest has the wind power equivalent of the huge oil energy pools around the planet, only it is non polluting, endless, fueless, and it belongs to all of US!</p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>So much wind!!<p>So much wind power in our region, and this is what we get? &nbsp;More coal? &nbsp;It's alarming and disgusting.<p>
Check out the latest good news on renewable power. &nbsp;Electric cars in the 100s of millions will solve the problem of storing inconstant wind generated electricity.<p>
<a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/19/1455214.html" rel="nofollow">http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/19/1455214.html<p>
The northern midwest has the wind power equivalent of the huge oil energy pools around the planet, only it is non polluting, endless, fueless, and it belongs to all of US!</p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Mr M</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:42:50 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Action needed now</strong></p><p>Good article. &nbsp;Reponses not so good. &nbsp;How long can we be self-righteous about coal?? &nbsp;With the IEA predicting world energy need to increase by 60% over the next 25-30 years, it's clear that to balance legitimate development and environmental considerations, the world will need all of - clean coal, safe and affordable nuclear, reliable and affordable renewables, and increased energy efficiency. &nbsp;With the possible exception of the last (which requires massive societal attitude shift across many cultures), none of these options is either cheap or easily achievable.</p><p>
We should be encouraging the coal people to come on board the climate change battle, not slamming them because they're coal. &nbsp;It's the way it's used, stupid!</p>
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				<p><strong>Action needed now</strong></p><p>Good article. &nbsp;Reponses not so good. &nbsp;How long can we be self-righteous about coal?? &nbsp;With the IEA predicting world energy need to increase by 60% over the next 25-30 years, it's clear that to balance legitimate development and environmental considerations, the world will need all of - clean coal, safe and affordable nuclear, reliable and affordable renewables, and increased energy efficiency. &nbsp;With the possible exception of the last (which requires massive societal attitude shift across many cultures), none of these options is either cheap or easily achievable.</p><p>
We should be encouraging the coal people to come on board the climate change battle, not slamming them because they're coal. &nbsp;It's the way it's used, stupid!</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Helen W</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:13:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Coal Reversal</strong></p><p>Those who tout FutureGen technology as a near perfect solution to our energy needs should take off the rose-colored glasses. &nbsp;For those of us living in the targeted area of eastern Montana where the strip mining would likely be done to feed this monster, there is another viewpoint. &nbsp;Why turn productive farm and ranch land upside down to feed the dinosaur?</p><p>
Investing in unproven coal conversion facilities hoping to successfully achieve all that is on their wishlist is likely to be quite disappointing, especially if the plant happens to be located in your area. &nbsp;We all would like to believe that sequestering greenhouse gas is a done deal, but by their own admission, they indicate that "the project will test whether it can remain sequestered underground indefinitely." &nbsp;Folks, this is just a test!</p><p>
And incidentally, it doesn't measure up economically to other alternatives. &nbsp;If this 375 megawatt power plant costs one billion dollars to construct, that's about $2.6 million per megawatt. &nbsp;The newly built 135 megawatt wind farm in Montana cost around $150 million which comes to about $1.1 million per megawatt.</p><p>
Biofuels plants are being built in numerous states throughout the midwest. &nbsp;Construction time is about 2 years. &nbsp;Oilseed crops are, and can be grown in a wide region of the country, contributing significantly to local economies.</p><p>
Let's join the 21st century.</p>
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				<p><strong>Coal Reversal</strong></p><p>Those who tout FutureGen technology as a near perfect solution to our energy needs should take off the rose-colored glasses. &nbsp;For those of us living in the targeted area of eastern Montana where the strip mining would likely be done to feed this monster, there is another viewpoint. &nbsp;Why turn productive farm and ranch land upside down to feed the dinosaur?</p><p>
Investing in unproven coal conversion facilities hoping to successfully achieve all that is on their wishlist is likely to be quite disappointing, especially if the plant happens to be located in your area. &nbsp;We all would like to believe that sequestering greenhouse gas is a done deal, but by their own admission, they indicate that "the project will test whether it can remain sequestered underground indefinitely." &nbsp;Folks, this is just a test!</p><p>
And incidentally, it doesn't measure up economically to other alternatives. &nbsp;If this 375 megawatt power plant costs one billion dollars to construct, that's about $2.6 million per megawatt. &nbsp;The newly built 135 megawatt wind farm in Montana cost around $150 million which comes to about $1.1 million per megawatt.</p><p>
Biofuels plants are being built in numerous states throughout the midwest. &nbsp;Construction time is about 2 years. &nbsp;Oilseed crops are, and can be grown in a wide region of the country, contributing significantly to local economies.</p><p>
Let's join the 21st century.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by jdhlax</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:06:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Enviros Should Oppose All Mining</strong></p><p>To Mr. M: Your comment that people are being "self-righteous about coal" belies a very anti-environmental position. &nbsp;All mining is very environmentally destructive. &nbsp;Should we destroy your home and everyone who lives there in order to extract energy?</p>
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				<p><strong>Enviros Should Oppose All Mining</strong></p><p>To Mr. M: Your comment that people are being "self-righteous about coal" belies a very anti-environmental position. &nbsp;All mining is very environmentally destructive. &nbsp;Should we destroy your home and everyone who lives there in order to extract energy?</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Mr M</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 03:24:15 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>to Mr Hoffman</strong></p><p>Grist Credo: &nbsp;"We exist to tell the untold stories, spotlight trends before they become trendy, and engage the apathetic. We're fiercely independent in our coverage; we throw brickbats when they're needed and bestow kudos when they're warranted."</p><p>
I am certainly not "anti-environmental", resent the charge, and have the scars to prove my commitment to the cause. &nbsp;What I cannot stand is your self-righteousness that condemns anyone THINKING about these issues. &nbsp;That's why I like and support the GRIST credo.</p><p>
You condemn all mining outright; that just seems to me about as rational as suggesting we migrate back to our caves.</p>
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				<p><strong>to Mr Hoffman</strong></p><p>Grist Credo: &nbsp;"We exist to tell the untold stories, spotlight trends before they become trendy, and engage the apathetic. We're fiercely independent in our coverage; we throw brickbats when they're needed and bestow kudos when they're warranted."</p><p>
I am certainly not "anti-environmental", resent the charge, and have the scars to prove my commitment to the cause. &nbsp;What I cannot stand is your self-righteousness that condemns anyone THINKING about these issues. &nbsp;That's why I like and support the GRIST credo.</p><p>
You condemn all mining outright; that just seems to me about as rational as suggesting we migrate back to our caves.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:48:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Contradiction Burns</strong></p><p>Good discussion here. &nbsp;Clean coal (sequestered CO2) is not competitive with old coal power plant economics (without carbon credits). &nbsp;The Earth burns while we talk about this fire breathing dragon. &nbsp;Take your best shot at its belly. &nbsp; </p><p>
Dirty coal can be killed with economics. &nbsp;Lowest cost energy will sell in China, India, and everywhere. &nbsp;Like whale oils, coal will become obsolete due to lower cost alternatives.</p>
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				<p><strong>The Contradiction Burns</strong></p><p>Good discussion here. &nbsp;Clean coal (sequestered CO2) is not competitive with old coal power plant economics (without carbon credits). &nbsp;The Earth burns while we talk about this fire breathing dragon. &nbsp;Take your best shot at its belly. &nbsp; </p><p>
Dirty coal can be killed with economics. &nbsp;Lowest cost energy will sell in China, India, and everywhere. &nbsp;Like whale oils, coal will become obsolete due to lower cost alternatives.</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:01:48 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/muck1/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hope so sun.</strong></p><p>I just hope the technology that we know is the lowest cost long term, mainly because it requires no fuel and produces no waste will win out in time to head off more oil wars, global climate disaster,more nuclear power and contamination, and a proliferation &nbsp;of energy farms and forests that eat up the natural world.</p><p>
The solution IS nuclear power however, in the sun, where it belongs, harvested with wind and solar energy systems powering electric vehicles and geothermal heat pumps.</p><p>
Not to mention the eco disaster and death toll of coal from mine to smokestack to human lungs. &nbsp;And lakes and forests destroyed by acid rain and ecosystems destroyed &nbsp;by mercury.</p>
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				<p><strong>Hope so sun.</strong></p><p>I just hope the technology that we know is the lowest cost long term, mainly because it requires no fuel and produces no waste will win out in time to head off more oil wars, global climate disaster,more nuclear power and contamination, and a proliferation &nbsp;of energy farms and forests that eat up the natural world.</p><p>
The solution IS nuclear power however, in the sun, where it belongs, harvested with wind and solar energy systems powering electric vehicles and geothermal heat pumps.</p><p>
Not to mention the eco disaster and death toll of coal from mine to smokestack to human lungs. &nbsp;And lakes and forests destroyed by acid rain and ecosystems destroyed &nbsp;by mercury.</p>
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