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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Everyday choices depend more on culture, infrastructure, economics, and values]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:58:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Funny</strong></p><p>Several people have reported that Pollan's piece has gone viral and has been one of the most read and discussed and shared articles in a long while. &nbsp;Maybe we need more discussion of morals and ethics and less of economic values.

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Funny</strong></p><p>Several people have reported that Pollan's piece has gone viral and has been one of the most read and discussed and shared articles in a long while. &nbsp;Maybe we need more discussion of morals and ethics and less of economic values.

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:43:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Fine point</strong></p><p>Adam. &nbsp;Values are the &nbsp;fractals by which we all interact in the symbiotic human herd. &nbsp;One buffaloe is frightened, it jumps and jostles another, the wave spreading by the fractal expressed in each individual buffalo's reaction, the herd start fleeing the supposed danger.</p><p>
Whoops, it's a cliff. &nbsp;Too late to turn.</p><p>
A human example:</p><p>
Donuts taste good. &nbsp;people eat donuts when they see other people eating them.</p><p>
Soon there are donut stores everywhere. &nbsp;Donut stocks soar, Crispy Kreme was a big bubble stock!</p><p>
Obesity rates soar, drug company stocks soar on the wave of treatment. &nbsp;</p><p>
The moral of the story? &nbsp;Indulging in too many donuts is a character weakness to be avoided, all good people shall have this inculcated from birth.</p><p>
The values (fractals) of human beings that are expressed? &nbsp;Life is short, momentary experience of a grease and sugar high is most important to me right now. &nbsp;But later I'll realize I value being thin, healthy, and happy. &nbsp;And consume something that fullfills my craving to experience the world, like the feeling of running down the trail. &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Fine point</strong></p><p>Adam. &nbsp;Values are the &nbsp;fractals by which we all interact in the symbiotic human herd. &nbsp;One buffaloe is frightened, it jumps and jostles another, the wave spreading by the fractal expressed in each individual buffalo's reaction, the herd start fleeing the supposed danger.</p><p>
Whoops, it's a cliff. &nbsp;Too late to turn.</p><p>
A human example:</p><p>
Donuts taste good. &nbsp;people eat donuts when they see other people eating them.</p><p>
Soon there are donut stores everywhere. &nbsp;Donut stocks soar, Crispy Kreme was a big bubble stock!</p><p>
Obesity rates soar, drug company stocks soar on the wave of treatment. &nbsp;</p><p>
The moral of the story? &nbsp;Indulging in too many donuts is a character weakness to be avoided, all good people shall have this inculcated from birth.</p><p>
The values (fractals) of human beings that are expressed? &nbsp;Life is short, momentary experience of a grease and sugar high is most important to me right now. &nbsp;But later I'll realize I value being thin, healthy, and happy. &nbsp;And consume something that fullfills my craving to experience the world, like the feeling of running down the trail. &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Adam Stein</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:51:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ugh<p>I actually requested that this post not run, but there's no good way to intercept them once they disappear into Grist's system. Oh, well. Perhaps I'll just make a few edits up top.<p>
JMG, the environmental movement is fairly obviously not lacking for discussions of morals. 

<p><a href="http://www.terrapass.com/blog" rel="nofollow">www.terrapass.com/blog</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ugh<p>I actually requested that this post not run, but there's no good way to intercept them once they disappear into Grist's system. Oh, well. Perhaps I'll just make a few edits up top.<p>
JMG, the environmental movement is fairly obviously not lacking for discussions of morals. 

<p><a href="http://www.terrapass.com/blog" rel="nofollow">www.terrapass.com/blog</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:54:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Low morals work too<p>I go to farmers market to ogle the babes wandering around expressing some primitive fertility urge. I buy a bunch of stuff because it gives me an excuse to hang out longer. Poof, I'm a localvore instead of a dirty old man.<p>
Likewise that's probably why I end up at a local chain grocer (TJ's) that has a suspiciously high organic content as well as more babes scanning the salad greens. I'm there so I buy what I need getting organic stuff when the price shift isn't that bad. I don't want to look cheap.<p>
Swirly light bulbs put a LOT more money in my pocket for beer and the Xtracycle loaded with groceries is an attempt to get said beer gut in check. I learned how to garden growing herbs popular with college kids and it became a habit.<p>
Accidentally doing all this gives me a cheap and easy ego boost when I see some guy roar by in his monster truck. I couldn't afford one of those when gas was $2.70/gal. and I really can't afford one now. So my Toyota Matrix bought used and cheap makes me look like a genius now.<p>
Who needs virtue?

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Low morals work too<p>I go to farmers market to ogle the babes wandering around expressing some primitive fertility urge. I buy a bunch of stuff because it gives me an excuse to hang out longer. Poof, I'm a localvore instead of a dirty old man.<p>
Likewise that's probably why I end up at a local chain grocer (TJ's) that has a suspiciously high organic content as well as more babes scanning the salad greens. I'm there so I buy what I need getting organic stuff when the price shift isn't that bad. I don't want to look cheap.<p>
Swirly light bulbs put a LOT more money in my pocket for beer and the Xtracycle loaded with groceries is an attempt to get said beer gut in check. I learned how to garden growing herbs popular with college kids and it became a habit.<p>
Accidentally doing all this gives me a cheap and easy ego boost when I see some guy roar by in his monster truck. I couldn't afford one of those when gas was $2.70/gal. and I really can't afford one now. So my Toyota Matrix bought used and cheap makes me look like a genius now.<p>
Who needs virtue?

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:58:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Is that the same thing?</strong></p><p>Adam, you say the environmental "movement" (whatever that is) is not lacking in discussion of morals. &nbsp;My comment was that maybe we need more of these, not less. &nbsp;Do you happen to know the proper level of discussions of morality for a "movement"? &nbsp;</p><p>
It's hard not to read your piece and think about whether and how it might relate to your position as a seller of carbon offsets. 

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Is that the same thing?</strong></p><p>Adam, you say the environmental "movement" (whatever that is) is not lacking in discussion of morals. &nbsp;My comment was that maybe we need more of these, not less. &nbsp;Do you happen to know the proper level of discussions of morality for a "movement"? &nbsp;</p><p>
It's hard not to read your piece and think about whether and how it might relate to your position as a seller of carbon offsets. 

<p>Save your community:  Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by wesrolley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:17:01 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>The reason we need Pollan's message<p>My local (circulation &lt;5000) paper carried an <a href="http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_environmentalism" rel="nofollow">Earth Day OpEd by Michael Berliner. When I criticized it at my own <a href="http://cagreening.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">blog, I got the following comment posted. As a biologist I am proud, not only of my own "carbon footprint" but also admire the 'carbon footprint' of every honest capitalist, and capitalist business in the world.<p>
Environmentalism is a religion not a science, and its followers are either dupes, while its proponents make fraudulent use of science to further their sense of power over other men. Such is the nature of all tyrannies. <p>
We have a lot of work to do. 

<p>Wes Rolley

CoChair - EcoAction Committee
Green Party US</p></p></p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The reason we need Pollan's message<p>My local (circulation &lt;5000) paper carried an <a href="http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_environmentalism" rel="nofollow">Earth Day OpEd by Michael Berliner. When I criticized it at my own <a href="http://cagreening.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">blog, I got the following comment posted. As a biologist I am proud, not only of my own "carbon footprint" but also admire the 'carbon footprint' of every honest capitalist, and capitalist business in the world.<p>
Environmentalism is a religion not a science, and its followers are either dupes, while its proponents make fraudulent use of science to further their sense of power over other men. Such is the nature of all tyrannies. <p>
We have a lot of work to do. 

<p>Wes Rolley

CoChair - EcoAction Committee
Green Party US</p></p></p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Adam Stein</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:32:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Heh<p>JMG, I can't imagine you read anything I write without thinking about how it relates to my position as a seller of carbon offsets. It definitely goes a long way toward explaining your knack for failing utterly to engage with my actual points, and ascribing arguments to me that I never actually make.<p>
Likewise, I can't really read anything you write without thinking of your constant retreading of tiresome Kunstlerisms; your self-described status as a misanthrope; your bottomless disapproval of others; and your evident glee explaining to them why they suck. You say you want to inject more moralism into your favored positions? Shocker! Maybe you can write a blog post explaining what circle of hell cap-and-trade proponents will be consigned to.<p>
What's the proper level of moral discourse for a movement? I have no idea. It's a question I'd be delighted to take up with a thoughtful writer like Michael Pollan. With you? Not so much.

<p><a href="http://www.terrapass.com/blog" rel="nofollow">www.terrapass.com/blog</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Heh<p>JMG, I can't imagine you read anything I write without thinking about how it relates to my position as a seller of carbon offsets. It definitely goes a long way toward explaining your knack for failing utterly to engage with my actual points, and ascribing arguments to me that I never actually make.<p>
Likewise, I can't really read anything you write without thinking of your constant retreading of tiresome Kunstlerisms; your self-described status as a misanthrope; your bottomless disapproval of others; and your evident glee explaining to them why they suck. You say you want to inject more moralism into your favored positions? Shocker! Maybe you can write a blog post explaining what circle of hell cap-and-trade proponents will be consigned to.<p>
What's the proper level of moral discourse for a movement? I have no idea. It's a question I'd be delighted to take up with a thoughtful writer like Michael Pollan. With you? Not so much.

<p><a href="http://www.terrapass.com/blog" rel="nofollow">www.terrapass.com/blog</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:03:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/more-pollan-blogging-morals-vs-values/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>ethics vocab</strong></p><p>"Morality" and "virtue" are certainly NOT synonymous. &nbsp;There are systems of morality which make little or no emphasis on the virtues of moral agents. &nbsp;And, on the other hand, moral agents may be said to exhibit certain virtues, but their conduct may still be seen to be deficient, or even evil, by the moral perspective of contemporary observers.</p><p>
An example of the latter: The conduct pertaining to the so-called Protestant Work Ethic, which historically underlies much of the practice of modern entrepreneurs and other businessfolk, is characterized by certain virtues. &nbsp;But within the very societies in which that Ethic flourishes, other, more fundamental ways of ethical evaluation might judge the practisers of those virtues to be monstrous and perverse, and the fruits of their actions to be destructive.</p><p>
"Value" is a general term common to many types of analysis in which comparison has a part. &nbsp;Pollan was very careful to refer to "economic value." &nbsp;But there are a number of other applications of value that are implicit in his appeal to cultivating gardens: The moral value of gardening might be the most fundamental, but that would also include aesthetic value, social value, medical value, and environmental value, for starters.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>ethics vocab</strong></p><p>"Morality" and "virtue" are certainly NOT synonymous. &nbsp;There are systems of morality which make little or no emphasis on the virtues of moral agents. &nbsp;And, on the other hand, moral agents may be said to exhibit certain virtues, but their conduct may still be seen to be deficient, or even evil, by the moral perspective of contemporary observers.</p><p>
An example of the latter: The conduct pertaining to the so-called Protestant Work Ethic, which historically underlies much of the practice of modern entrepreneurs and other businessfolk, is characterized by certain virtues. &nbsp;But within the very societies in which that Ethic flourishes, other, more fundamental ways of ethical evaluation might judge the practisers of those virtues to be monstrous and perverse, and the fruits of their actions to be destructive.</p><p>
"Value" is a general term common to many types of analysis in which comparison has a part. &nbsp;Pollan was very careful to refer to "economic value." &nbsp;But there are a number of other applications of value that are implicit in his appeal to cultivating gardens: The moral value of gardening might be the most fundamental, but that would also include aesthetic value, social value, medical value, and environmental value, for starters.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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