<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A modern city can be remade]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 06:54:43 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/1 The future of streets...

...pedestrians, bikes, and light rail, oh yeah!

]]> The future of streets...

...pedestrians, bikes, and light rail, oh yeah!

]]> Comment #2 by ClickClickClank http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 10:25:20 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/2 As someone who lives there...

I'd make the following points;

While not as far along with bicycle infrastructure as some European cities, Melbourne is definitely more bicycle friendly than most. I think this is mainly due to cycling having the best dollar:impact ratio when trying to tackle problems such as pollution, congestion, public health etc etc. The 'Copenhagen' style bike lanes (parked cars and concrete divider between bike lane and traffic) are especially awesome.

The trams are great, but the public transport system as a whole sucks. When it was government owned we had conductors - now that it's privatised we have a lousy machine based ticketing system so easy to evade the companies were forced to hire 'ticket inspectors' to rough up snotty kids. Do they consider bringing back the conductors? Nope. Instead the government labours them with ANOTHER crappy ticketing system that has suffered ridiculous delays and insane budget blowouts.

The laneways and 'hidden treasures' stuff is actually pretty accurate. Take a wrong turn down a laneway and there's usually a bar or cafe at the end of it.

The video doesn't mention our problems with the homeless, the mentally ill, the current proposed '2am lockout' for bars and pubs because stupid people can't control themselves in public, the housing crisis, the overall transport nightmare that the state of Victoria faces as our population balloons. In other words, we're just as buggered as most cities.

Still, it can be a great place.

]]> As someone who lives there...

I'd make the following points;

While not as far along with bicycle infrastructure as some European cities, Melbourne is definitely more bicycle friendly than most. I think this is mainly due to cycling having the best dollar:impact ratio when trying to tackle problems such as pollution, congestion, public health etc etc. The 'Copenhagen' style bike lanes (parked cars and concrete divider between bike lane and traffic) are especially awesome.

The trams are great, but the public transport system as a whole sucks. When it was government owned we had conductors - now that it's privatised we have a lousy machine based ticketing system so easy to evade the companies were forced to hire 'ticket inspectors' to rough up snotty kids. Do they consider bringing back the conductors? Nope. Instead the government labours them with ANOTHER crappy ticketing system that has suffered ridiculous delays and insane budget blowouts.

The laneways and 'hidden treasures' stuff is actually pretty accurate. Take a wrong turn down a laneway and there's usually a bar or cafe at the end of it.

The video doesn't mention our problems with the homeless, the mentally ill, the current proposed '2am lockout' for bars and pubs because stupid people can't control themselves in public, the housing crisis, the overall transport nightmare that the state of Victoria faces as our population balloons. In other words, we're just as buggered as most cities.

Still, it can be a great place.

]]> Comment #3 by gogreener http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 12:58:28 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/3 Have just visited Melbourne

I spent a week in Melbourne recently and was really impressed with the number of cyclists and how good the trams were. There was a lot of life in the city - people everywhere at all hours, big shops, little shops, bars and restaurants all over the place.

---- ---- ---- Go Greener, Australia - you know you want to.

]]> Have just visited Melbourne

I spent a week in Melbourne recently and was really impressed with the number of cyclists and how good the trams were. There was a lot of life in the city - people everywhere at all hours, big shops, little shops, bars and restaurants all over the place.

---- ---- ---- Go Greener, Australia - you know you want to.

]]> Comment #4 by Tasermons Partner http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 15:47:07 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/4 I remember Melbourne...

...fantastic place to visit.

Also would recommend Adelaide.  Beautiful, master planned city around a series of parks, greenbelts, and common spaces.

]]> I remember Melbourne...

...fantastic place to visit.

Also would recommend Adelaide.  Beautiful, master planned city around a series of parks, greenbelts, and common spaces.

]]> Comment #5 by Colin Wright http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 16:10:53 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/5 Cafe culture?

Damn Aussies. What have they got against Starbucks?

]]> Cafe culture?

Damn Aussies. What have they got against Starbucks?

]]> Comment #6 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:26:46 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/6 Starbucks?

We've even got some of that shit in Melbourne.  There's lots of choice: Hard Rock Cafe, Damn Americanis or their franchisees are in there for any shy people a bit scared of cosmopolitana.

]]> Starbucks?

We've even got some of that shit in Melbourne.  There's lots of choice: Hard Rock Cafe, Damn Americanis or their franchisees are in there for any shy people a bit scared of cosmopolitana.

]]> Comment #7 by tiffanylove http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 17:58:59 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/7 tiffany

I agree with you.I would buy tiffany jewelry can you give ad me?

love tiffany jewelry.

]]> tiffany

I agree with you.I would buy tiffany jewelry can you give ad me?

love tiffany jewelry.

]]> Comment #8 by JJ http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 19:00:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/8 Don't be fooled!

This whole film is shot in the inner suburbs.  Melbourne's dirty little secret... the SPRAWL.  Some of the worst in the world.

]]> Don't be fooled!

This whole film is shot in the inner suburbs.  Melbourne's dirty little secret... the SPRAWL.  Some of the worst in the world.

]]> Comment #9 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 20:13:02 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/9 What's your grudge GJP?

I live in the North East, (Montmorency), and I think it is lovely.

Nearby are mountains and beautiful forests including rainforest.

have you checked-out the areas immediately outside of downtown Detroit, Denver, LA and a few etc's?

I can ride my bike along the Plenty River and Yarra river trails in continuous parkland for some 40Km into the brilliant Southbank Area in the City.  I can also go outwards a long way to say Diamond Creek, all in parkland.

Any city of about 4 million has suburbs.  In the case of Melbourne's Western suburbs, for some reason beyond my ken they do not plant many trees, but in the East it is very leafy.
take your pick!

What is your choice in where you live?
Maybe you should move to Adelaide?

]]> What's your grudge GJP?

I live in the North East, (Montmorency), and I think it is lovely.

Nearby are mountains and beautiful forests including rainforest.

have you checked-out the areas immediately outside of downtown Detroit, Denver, LA and a few etc's?

I can ride my bike along the Plenty River and Yarra river trails in continuous parkland for some 40Km into the brilliant Southbank Area in the City.  I can also go outwards a long way to say Diamond Creek, all in parkland.

Any city of about 4 million has suburbs.  In the case of Melbourne's Western suburbs, for some reason beyond my ken they do not plant many trees, but in the East it is very leafy.
take your pick!

What is your choice in where you live?
Maybe you should move to Adelaide?

]]> Comment #10 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Wed, 07 May 2008 20:26:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/10 Oh and furthermore GJP

If I want to, I can walk from my door and train into the city in about 40 minutes, or drive-in and park off-peak in about 25 minutes.
We have a magnificent State Library, botanic gardens, Myer music bowl, concert hall, and, and,and......what's your gripe again?

]]> Oh and furthermore GJP

If I want to, I can walk from my door and train into the city in about 40 minutes, or drive-in and park off-peak in about 25 minutes.
We have a magnificent State Library, botanic gardens, Myer music bowl, concert hall, and, and,and......what's your gripe again?

]]> Comment #11 by JJ http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Fri, 16 May 2008 15:22:12 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/11 Sprawl

Wow - black wallaby you are pretty defensive.

My comment was in regards to the lack of a complete picture in the original post/video, not a discussion on the merits of the city.

Melbourne has VERY low population density.  Yes every city has suburbs, but the 4mil people in Melbourne don't need to span out 40+k on either side at a density of 496 people/sq km (for example compare this with Los Angeles at 3,168 people/sq km or Paris at 24,783 people/sq km). This sprawl is at the expense of those beautiful forests you mentioned, and very rare native grasslands on the fringes of the city.  

The video portrays a revitalisation of the city centre (which I am all for - esp love the work currently happening in the city on bike lanes), but its not a great environmental outcome if all those people shown visiting the laneways in the city centre are travelling 50K to do so because their own outer suburbs are developed without complete services.  It is  because I have seen Detroit and LA that I am concerned about this problem.  Melbourne 2030 was an attempt to deal with this problem, but its not working particularly well as the currently developing suburbs (the West is a prime case) are being developed without adequate services, local employment opportunities or quality public transport - which leaves people no option but to jump into their cars and drive into the city - not a great outcome for the environment.

]]> Sprawl

Wow - black wallaby you are pretty defensive.

My comment was in regards to the lack of a complete picture in the original post/video, not a discussion on the merits of the city.

Melbourne has VERY low population density.  Yes every city has suburbs, but the 4mil people in Melbourne don't need to span out 40+k on either side at a density of 496 people/sq km (for example compare this with Los Angeles at 3,168 people/sq km or Paris at 24,783 people/sq km). This sprawl is at the expense of those beautiful forests you mentioned, and very rare native grasslands on the fringes of the city.  

The video portrays a revitalisation of the city centre (which I am all for - esp love the work currently happening in the city on bike lanes), but its not a great environmental outcome if all those people shown visiting the laneways in the city centre are travelling 50K to do so because their own outer suburbs are developed without complete services.  It is  because I have seen Detroit and LA that I am concerned about this problem.  Melbourne 2030 was an attempt to deal with this problem, but its not working particularly well as the currently developing suburbs (the West is a prime case) are being developed without adequate services, local employment opportunities or quality public transport - which leaves people no option but to jump into their cars and drive into the city - not a great outcome for the environment.

]]> Comment #12 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/ Thu, 22 May 2008 21:01:19 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/melbourne/12 Suburban development

GJP, I understand where you are coming from, and the concern about infrastructure.  I think it is well founded, however I don't think you can defeat what has evolved.  Suburbian Melburnians love their green spaces (corridors) and large housing blocks.

The solution is to improve the suburban infrastucture and employment opportunities, so that there is no need to commute to the centre.

I for one in Montmorency in the North East, am totally pissed-off with 2030 intentions.  We have a railway station and nice shopping village, and more and more unit developments, and more and more cars being parked all-day in nearby streets on both sides so that it is give way to one-lane other traffic by courtesy. One has to make circuits of the village to park, or some F-wits just sit there stopping traffic waiting for a car to leave.  (AAARRGHH!!!)

GJP, you can stuff suburban 2030 up your left nostril, and anyway, it has nothing to do with our wonderful city centre!  (And what visitors might like to see...... and other parts of Victoria)

]]> Suburban development

GJP, I understand where you are coming from, and the concern about infrastructure.  I think it is well founded, however I don't think you can defeat what has evolved.  Suburbian Melburnians love their green spaces (corridors) and large housing blocks.

The solution is to improve the suburban infrastucture and employment opportunities, so that there is no need to commute to the centre.

I for one in Montmorency in the North East, am totally pissed-off with 2030 intentions.  We have a railway station and nice shopping village, and more and more unit developments, and more and more cars being parked all-day in nearby streets on both sides so that it is give way to one-lane other traffic by courtesy. One has to make circuits of the village to park, or some F-wits just sit there stopping traffic waiting for a car to leave.  (AAARRGHH!!!)

GJP, you can stuff suburban 2030 up your left nostril, and anyway, it has nothing to do with our wonderful city centre!  (And what visitors might like to see...... and other parts of Victoria)

]]>