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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Ted Glick on two new books that address capitalism and the environment]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by stephanieh</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 02:25:10 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Capitalism destructive?<p>Capitalism is no more destructive than a gun - it's the person utilizing the tool that is destructive or constructive. The economy is full of people who are becoming more aware and concerned about climate change, and when we reach the tipping point, capitalism will become a potent tool for change. It's people - not theories or inanimate objects - that can hurt or help.<p>
Stephanie<br>
<a href="http://www.cleaning-green.net" rel="nofollow">Cleaning-Green.Net</a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Capitalism destructive?<p>Capitalism is no more destructive than a gun - it's the person utilizing the tool that is destructive or constructive. The economy is full of people who are becoming more aware and concerned about climate change, and when we reach the tipping point, capitalism will become a potent tool for change. It's people - not theories or inanimate objects - that can hurt or help.<p>
Stephanie<br>
<a href="http://www.cleaning-green.net" rel="nofollow">Cleaning-Green.Net</a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by jtellerelsberg</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 03:12:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Capitalism isn't just a &quot;theory&quot;</strong></p><p>Stephanie, you have misunderstood what capitalism is--a mistake that many make (so you're in good company :) ). Capitalism isn't just some "theory" of the economy. It is a real thing, even though intangible. Capitalism is made up by the laws governing ownership of productive materials and resources. It is made up by the cultural attitudes and patterns of behavior of people in the way they relate to work, to their boss, to their employees, to what they believe is appropriate for the intersection of politics and economics. It is made up by the institutions and systems of business and commerce. Obviously, that covers a lot of ground, which is why (among other reasons) people like Speth talk about different forms of Capitalism, some for better and some for worse. Anyway, all this means that Capitalism is something to be considered in its own right--it's not nearly as passive a thing as an inanimate object like a hammer. The way that Capitalism is shaped and put together create pressures on people to behave certain ways, so it's wrong to say that Capitalism is just at the mercy of how the person uses it. You can't just ignore the ownership structure of Capitalism when you have a boss you don't like. You can't just "use" the tool of Capitalism to have either one relationship to the stock owners of the company you work for or another relationship. They own the company--end of story. They want the stock price to rise and they want dividends--end of story. If you have to be told to work harder, work longer, accept a pay cut, accept cuts to your benefits, or lose your job entirely to satisfy the demands of the owners--end of story. Changing the owners does not change the structure of corporate capitalism. Just as "power corrupts," ownership in a corporate society induces people to behave in ways they wouldn't necessarily choose to if they thought about it or had the individual choice. The long and short: Speth and Mazzocchi are right to think about the system itself and what ways might be necessary to change the system if you want an ecologically sustainable world. That doesn't mean the answers they arrived at are necessarily right, only that they're right, at least, to ask the question.

<p>"We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." --Les Lanyon</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Capitalism isn't just a &quot;theory&quot;</strong></p><p>Stephanie, you have misunderstood what capitalism is--a mistake that many make (so you're in good company :) ). Capitalism isn't just some "theory" of the economy. It is a real thing, even though intangible. Capitalism is made up by the laws governing ownership of productive materials and resources. It is made up by the cultural attitudes and patterns of behavior of people in the way they relate to work, to their boss, to their employees, to what they believe is appropriate for the intersection of politics and economics. It is made up by the institutions and systems of business and commerce. Obviously, that covers a lot of ground, which is why (among other reasons) people like Speth talk about different forms of Capitalism, some for better and some for worse. Anyway, all this means that Capitalism is something to be considered in its own right--it's not nearly as passive a thing as an inanimate object like a hammer. The way that Capitalism is shaped and put together create pressures on people to behave certain ways, so it's wrong to say that Capitalism is just at the mercy of how the person uses it. You can't just ignore the ownership structure of Capitalism when you have a boss you don't like. You can't just "use" the tool of Capitalism to have either one relationship to the stock owners of the company you work for or another relationship. They own the company--end of story. They want the stock price to rise and they want dividends--end of story. If you have to be told to work harder, work longer, accept a pay cut, accept cuts to your benefits, or lose your job entirely to satisfy the demands of the owners--end of story. Changing the owners does not change the structure of corporate capitalism. Just as "power corrupts," ownership in a corporate society induces people to behave in ways they wouldn't necessarily choose to if they thought about it or had the individual choice. The long and short: Speth and Mazzocchi are right to think about the system itself and what ways might be necessary to change the system if you want an ecologically sustainable world. That doesn't mean the answers they arrived at are necessarily right, only that they're right, at least, to ask the question.

<p>"We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same." --Les Lanyon</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by enki</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 03:42:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>capitalism in the new world<p>Capitalism is a model that works. It can work equally well in an ecologically responsible world as in an irresponsible world driven by mass consumption. Capitalism needs to have the proper set of regulations and guidelines. This is as true now as it has ever been.<p>
Most of our problems today have evolved from unregulated capitalism. Just like witch burnings, racially motivated "cleansings" and many other examples of bad behavior can evolve from within the framework of religion based on love so can any number of evils evolve from any inherently good system of belief or action.<p>
Capitalism is simply how society works. Consumers will buy products that best meet their needs or wants and make use of services which do the same. The challenge facing people who would like to turn society in a more environmentally friendly/sustainable direction are making this change into something that is perceived as better or more desirable on an individual basis to the consumer.<p>
Build a better mousetrap and they will buy. It is really that simple. Much of the public apathy toward all things green is the lack of personal, immediate benefit. Make it so that going green saves them a lot of money, gets them drunk faster, tastes better or cures erectile dysfunction and consumers will invest billions of dollars into it. Without that personal benefit it just won't work.

<p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/enki09" rel="nofollow">Mike Johnston



</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>capitalism in the new world<p>Capitalism is a model that works. It can work equally well in an ecologically responsible world as in an irresponsible world driven by mass consumption. Capitalism needs to have the proper set of regulations and guidelines. This is as true now as it has ever been.<p>
Most of our problems today have evolved from unregulated capitalism. Just like witch burnings, racially motivated "cleansings" and many other examples of bad behavior can evolve from within the framework of religion based on love so can any number of evils evolve from any inherently good system of belief or action.<p>
Capitalism is simply how society works. Consumers will buy products that best meet their needs or wants and make use of services which do the same. The challenge facing people who would like to turn society in a more environmentally friendly/sustainable direction are making this change into something that is perceived as better or more desirable on an individual basis to the consumer.<p>
Build a better mousetrap and they will buy. It is really that simple. Much of the public apathy toward all things green is the lack of personal, immediate benefit. Make it so that going green saves them a lot of money, gets them drunk faster, tastes better or cures erectile dysfunction and consumers will invest billions of dollars into it. Without that personal benefit it just won't work.

<p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/enki09" rel="nofollow">Mike Johnston



</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by lorna salzman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 04:44:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ted Glick review</strong></p><p><br>
I find Ted's comment below about the need for a unified movement where environmental issues are CENTRAL to be interesting, inasmuch as I have been critical in the past of of social justice and anti-war campaigns and movements for their superficial lip service to the environment and especially global warming. Ted, like others, had this vision of a unified movement but stopped short of promoting environmental issues as CENTRAL, probably because of his background in leftist politics and a bit of timorousness that he might be criticized by others on the left.</p><p>
It is commendable, but in the end not so surprising, that someone like Speth would have expanded his political understanding and analysis during his long career. People who work in groups like NRDC are not stupid. They are extremely knowledgeable. They know a lot more about environmental issues than the general public and the left (which isnt saying much). Recall that during the heated anti nuke battles of the 1970s, numerous scientists and engineers abandoned their jobs and political positions to side with the critics of nuclear power, with the happy result that the construction of new reactors in this country ended. &nbsp;Most of the NRDC people stayed on to reap the benefits of status and influence. Speth moved onward and upward. We owe him a debt of gratitude for taking the environmental arguments to their logical conclusion : that capitalism is to blame.</p><p>
But let's not give the marxists credit. They railed against capitalism from the beginning...but NOT for the same reasons. Many were the debates I had with leftists and social justice activists when I pointed out that it was economic growth that was the root of the problem, and that both capitalist and socialist economies supported such growth as well as supporting industrial expansion and technology. The left's oppposition to capitalism was rooted in ideology and a utopian dream of "worker control" of the "means of production". The person in this country who most accurately represented this dream &nbsp;was Barry Commoner, who looked to technology and changes in worker relations as salvation, while deriding nature as being unworthy of any respect or deference. He famously declared, at his 80th birthday celebration at Cooper Union, that nature will take care of itself.</p><p>
This peremptory denigration of not just nature but of the "tree huggers" who purportedly put nature before people, of those fighting for wilderness, endangered species, habitat protection and biodiversity, is still operative. One need only read what Van Jones, leader of the "green growth" movement had to say last year in this respect, as he and his movement put the economy and jobs first and nature hindmost, while blasting environmentalists for ignoring racism and the poor.....as if the fight to preserve the planet and its ecosystems were not a fight for all humanity and survival.</p><p>
I sincerely hope that Ted will use his own insights to come over to the ecological viewpoint, in which direction he seems pointed if not yet headed, in which these ecological concerns and battles take precedence, because they subsume all the social and economic justice issues of concern. Ted is probably smart enough to recognize that the creation of an ecological paradigm and society necessarily brings about the radical changes, including that of political empowerment, that social justice activists and the left profess to desire. Maybe he can put his talents to use in persuading these other movements of the centrality of ecological principles and objectives.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Ted Glick review</strong></p><p><br>
I find Ted's comment below about the need for a unified movement where environmental issues are CENTRAL to be interesting, inasmuch as I have been critical in the past of of social justice and anti-war campaigns and movements for their superficial lip service to the environment and especially global warming. Ted, like others, had this vision of a unified movement but stopped short of promoting environmental issues as CENTRAL, probably because of his background in leftist politics and a bit of timorousness that he might be criticized by others on the left.</p><p>
It is commendable, but in the end not so surprising, that someone like Speth would have expanded his political understanding and analysis during his long career. People who work in groups like NRDC are not stupid. They are extremely knowledgeable. They know a lot more about environmental issues than the general public and the left (which isnt saying much). Recall that during the heated anti nuke battles of the 1970s, numerous scientists and engineers abandoned their jobs and political positions to side with the critics of nuclear power, with the happy result that the construction of new reactors in this country ended. &nbsp;Most of the NRDC people stayed on to reap the benefits of status and influence. Speth moved onward and upward. We owe him a debt of gratitude for taking the environmental arguments to their logical conclusion : that capitalism is to blame.</p><p>
But let's not give the marxists credit. They railed against capitalism from the beginning...but NOT for the same reasons. Many were the debates I had with leftists and social justice activists when I pointed out that it was economic growth that was the root of the problem, and that both capitalist and socialist economies supported such growth as well as supporting industrial expansion and technology. The left's oppposition to capitalism was rooted in ideology and a utopian dream of "worker control" of the "means of production". The person in this country who most accurately represented this dream &nbsp;was Barry Commoner, who looked to technology and changes in worker relations as salvation, while deriding nature as being unworthy of any respect or deference. He famously declared, at his 80th birthday celebration at Cooper Union, that nature will take care of itself.</p><p>
This peremptory denigration of not just nature but of the "tree huggers" who purportedly put nature before people, of those fighting for wilderness, endangered species, habitat protection and biodiversity, is still operative. One need only read what Van Jones, leader of the "green growth" movement had to say last year in this respect, as he and his movement put the economy and jobs first and nature hindmost, while blasting environmentalists for ignoring racism and the poor.....as if the fight to preserve the planet and its ecosystems were not a fight for all humanity and survival.</p><p>
I sincerely hope that Ted will use his own insights to come over to the ecological viewpoint, in which direction he seems pointed if not yet headed, in which these ecological concerns and battles take precedence, because they subsume all the social and economic justice issues of concern. Ted is probably smart enough to recognize that the creation of an ecological paradigm and society necessarily brings about the radical changes, including that of political empowerment, that social justice activists and the left profess to desire. Maybe he can put his talents to use in persuading these other movements of the centrality of ecological principles and objectives.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by AndyFrankGO</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 08:57:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Not a Helpful Frame</strong></p><p>Mr. Glick,</p><p>
Your offhand analysis of "capitalism" (to be clear I include the authors you review in this stupidity) reeks of intellectual laziness and a fundamental misunderstanding of both history and economics. &nbsp;We have never lived in a pure "capitalist" system just as we have never lived in a pure "communist" or "socialist" system. &nbsp;There is always a role for government and a role for business, and no major problem has ever been confronted without the buy-in of both institutions. &nbsp;The climate problem can only be solved by fundamentally changing both government and business. &nbsp;It's not an either/or question. &nbsp;</p><p>
Frameworks like the ones you cite and propose actually do harm because they distract from the very real (and hard) work of creating the institutional systems in place that will radically reduce our dependence on fossil fuel. &nbsp;Spouting pseudo-scientific, paranoid theories about replacing the "corporate-dominated, two-party political system" and citing discredited axioms such as "a rejection of the necessity of constant economic growth" are an embarrassment to this otherwise thoughtful blog (and should be to you). &nbsp;</p><p>
To paraphrase from the movie "Billy Madison": Mr. Glick what you wrote is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.</p>
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				<p><strong>Not a Helpful Frame</strong></p><p>Mr. Glick,</p><p>
Your offhand analysis of "capitalism" (to be clear I include the authors you review in this stupidity) reeks of intellectual laziness and a fundamental misunderstanding of both history and economics. &nbsp;We have never lived in a pure "capitalist" system just as we have never lived in a pure "communist" or "socialist" system. &nbsp;There is always a role for government and a role for business, and no major problem has ever been confronted without the buy-in of both institutions. &nbsp;The climate problem can only be solved by fundamentally changing both government and business. &nbsp;It's not an either/or question. &nbsp;</p><p>
Frameworks like the ones you cite and propose actually do harm because they distract from the very real (and hard) work of creating the institutional systems in place that will radically reduce our dependence on fossil fuel. &nbsp;Spouting pseudo-scientific, paranoid theories about replacing the "corporate-dominated, two-party political system" and citing discredited axioms such as "a rejection of the necessity of constant economic growth" are an embarrassment to this otherwise thoughtful blog (and should be to you). &nbsp;</p><p>
To paraphrase from the movie "Billy Madison": Mr. Glick what you wrote is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone reading this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:57:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>A missing link in the logic flow chart<p>The Soviet Union, China, India (and one day soon, Cuba) all managed to destroy their natural ecosystems prior to becoming capitalist economies. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>A missing link in the logic flow chart<p>The Soviet Union, China, India (and one day soon, Cuba) all managed to destroy their natural ecosystems prior to becoming capitalist economies. 

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 20:31:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Intersection of Green and Left<p>Thank you Tony for the post. I had seen the comments by Speth and had wondered if anyone else had thought they were as significant as I did. Interesting too, your pairing him with Tony Mazzocchi, who was coming from the opposite direction. <p>
The intersection of leftism and environmentalism seems to be getting more populated. I'm particularly interested in the new movements of relocalization, Transition Towns, food sovereignty, etc. I wonder if these might be a way to get around the ruts that older movements had gotten into. <p>
I suspect there may be a sudden, dramatic shift to the left as food and fuel prices continue to escalate, the economy wobbles and the war goes on. &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
(Alternately, I suppose to the right, with a hunt for scapegoats). &nbsp;I don't think that the environment will be the prime motivating force (as David R. said in another thread), but perhaps this time there can be a better melding of the two movements.<p>
And for those of you who grew up in the very conservative last three decades, be prepared for some surprises. 

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Intersection of Green and Left<p>Thank you Tony for the post. I had seen the comments by Speth and had wondered if anyone else had thought they were as significant as I did. Interesting too, your pairing him with Tony Mazzocchi, who was coming from the opposite direction. <p>
The intersection of leftism and environmentalism seems to be getting more populated. I'm particularly interested in the new movements of relocalization, Transition Towns, food sovereignty, etc. I wonder if these might be a way to get around the ruts that older movements had gotten into. <p>
I suspect there may be a sudden, dramatic shift to the left as food and fuel prices continue to escalate, the economy wobbles and the war goes on. &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
(Alternately, I suppose to the right, with a hunt for scapegoats). &nbsp;I don't think that the environment will be the prime motivating force (as David R. said in another thread), but perhaps this time there can be a better melding of the two movements.<p>
And for those of you who grew up in the very conservative last three decades, be prepared for some surprises. 

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 12:47:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/mazzocchi-speth-and-capitalisms-future/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>No one has all the answers ...<p>Ted, great stimulating review! <p>
You criticize Speth for not addressing the ills of the two-party system. But perhaps unfairly. I link to a great interview with Speth <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/5/2/92657/57625/#comment34" rel="nofollow">here. Although he doesn't specifically mention third parties, I get the impression he would be open-minded enough to consider anything that could provide a spark to the "environmental revolution". Unless you know otherwise. (Does he know as much as you about multicultural organizing? Probably not.)<p>
I certainly support Green Party activities but I wouldn't bet the house that a third party, even one tied to a dynamic, grassroots movement is going to be our savior. Surely we will need to encourage movement on all fronts (individual, community, municipality, national and international governments, etc.). <p>
Meanwhile, you don't seem to offer any sort of parallel criticism of Mazzochi. What sort of socialist was he? How would he go about organizing the economy differently than Speth? Would he advocate nationalizing or "socializing" industry? Or would he advocate bringing workers and community representatives onto corporate boards, as a transitional strategy (perhaps, not differently than Speth)? What were his views on economic growth and the relation to ecological destruction?<p>
I take it your point is to push Speth more to the left. But I wonder more what each of these men could have learned from the other.</p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>No one has all the answers ...<p>Ted, great stimulating review! <p>
You criticize Speth for not addressing the ills of the two-party system. But perhaps unfairly. I link to a great interview with Speth <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/5/2/92657/57625/#comment34" rel="nofollow">here. Although he doesn't specifically mention third parties, I get the impression he would be open-minded enough to consider anything that could provide a spark to the "environmental revolution". Unless you know otherwise. (Does he know as much as you about multicultural organizing? Probably not.)<p>
I certainly support Green Party activities but I wouldn't bet the house that a third party, even one tied to a dynamic, grassroots movement is going to be our savior. Surely we will need to encourage movement on all fronts (individual, community, municipality, national and international governments, etc.). <p>
Meanwhile, you don't seem to offer any sort of parallel criticism of Mazzochi. What sort of socialist was he? How would he go about organizing the economy differently than Speth? Would he advocate nationalizing or "socializing" industry? Or would he advocate bringing workers and community representatives onto corporate boards, as a transitional strategy (perhaps, not differently than Speth)? What were his views on economic growth and the relation to ecological destruction?<p>
I take it your point is to push Speth more to the left. But I wonder more what each of these men could have learned from the other.</p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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