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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Our materialism disguises a deeper problem]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:59:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>religions worth a second look</strong></p><p>I hate to say it, Dave, but the thoughts in your post remind me of those who are seriously spiritual or religious. </p><p>
What's striking about the "frenzied grasping for stuff" is not the stuff but the frenzied grasping. We seem perpetually unfulfilled... Sounds like what the Buddhists call "hungry ghosts" -- they eat and eat but are never satisfied.</p><p>
What do people need? A sense of purpose, security, and community; to be loved by a circle of family and friends; physical health. I think many religious people would agree with you that THESE are the important things, not material goods and status. (And fundamentalism to the contrary, one's particular theology is not that important.)</p><p>
I noticed when I was involved with leftism, that those activists with a religious background were better balanced, less prone to righteousness and paranoia. &nbsp;I found myself attracted to Quakers, Unitarians and Buddhists in the mold of Thich Nhat Hanh. &nbsp;But I also found that once I had opened up to religion, I began to understand and like people of other faiths as well. &nbsp;</p><p>
One of the writers on religions -- was it Huston Smith? (Religions of the World)-- said that having a feeling for religion is like having an ear for music, that it can open up a world of teachings and traditions, of new experiences and understandings.</p>
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				<p><strong>religions worth a second look</strong></p><p>I hate to say it, Dave, but the thoughts in your post remind me of those who are seriously spiritual or religious. </p><p>
What's striking about the "frenzied grasping for stuff" is not the stuff but the frenzied grasping. We seem perpetually unfulfilled... Sounds like what the Buddhists call "hungry ghosts" -- they eat and eat but are never satisfied.</p><p>
What do people need? A sense of purpose, security, and community; to be loved by a circle of family and friends; physical health. I think many religious people would agree with you that THESE are the important things, not material goods and status. (And fundamentalism to the contrary, one's particular theology is not that important.)</p><p>
I noticed when I was involved with leftism, that those activists with a religious background were better balanced, less prone to righteousness and paranoia. &nbsp;I found myself attracted to Quakers, Unitarians and Buddhists in the mold of Thich Nhat Hanh. &nbsp;But I also found that once I had opened up to religion, I began to understand and like people of other faiths as well. &nbsp;</p><p>
One of the writers on religions -- was it Huston Smith? (Religions of the World)-- said that having a feeling for religion is like having an ear for music, that it can open up a world of teachings and traditions, of new experiences and understandings.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by greenlagirl</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:42:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Green identities and materialism</strong></p><p>Not a fan of religion myself, I find it unfortunate that materialism seems to have taken the place of religion as the only secular alternative for conceptualizing a personal identity in this culture.</p><p>
I wonder if the "frenzied grasping" has to do not so much with spiritual lack as with a sense of purpose that's been warped by a capitalist culture -- one that defines you, and encourages you to define yourself -- by what you own. Or more to the point, by what you own as seen and interpreted by other people. Most people don't just want a higher-capacity mp3 player -- they want others to see that they own a higher-capacity mp3 player. Or Nike Shox. Or maybe, for Grist readers, a Toyota Prius.</p><p>
Not that I have anything agains Priuses -- I wish I could afford one. But I wonder if it's possible to move toward a society where one's sense of identity is not so dependent on the evaluation, recognition and approval of others...

<p>http://greenlagirl.blogspot.com/</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Green identities and materialism</strong></p><p>Not a fan of religion myself, I find it unfortunate that materialism seems to have taken the place of religion as the only secular alternative for conceptualizing a personal identity in this culture.</p><p>
I wonder if the "frenzied grasping" has to do not so much with spiritual lack as with a sense of purpose that's been warped by a capitalist culture -- one that defines you, and encourages you to define yourself -- by what you own. Or more to the point, by what you own as seen and interpreted by other people. Most people don't just want a higher-capacity mp3 player -- they want others to see that they own a higher-capacity mp3 player. Or Nike Shox. Or maybe, for Grist readers, a Toyota Prius.</p><p>
Not that I have anything agains Priuses -- I wish I could afford one. But I wonder if it's possible to move toward a society where one's sense of identity is not so dependent on the evaluation, recognition and approval of others...

<p>http://greenlagirl.blogspot.com/</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Pandu</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 05:11:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>nitai gauranga</strong></p><p>It is true that religion teaches against over-consumption and economic injustice, but it also teaches that God is the ultimate source for granting everyone's wishes. &nbsp;For instance, in Sri Isopanishad, Mantra 8, God is described as "the self-sufficient philosopher who has been fulfilling everyone's desire since time immemorial." &nbsp; There are also teachings about a law of karma, which indicate that everyone gets what he or she deserves. &nbsp;Teachings such as these, when misunderstood (taken out of context), can give people a sense of entitlement or that the success in pursuit of enjoyment is a sign of piety.</p><p>
Of course, that conception entirely misses the point of religion, but one should not expect average people to easily understand the inconceivable reality that exists beyond their empiric jurisdiction. &nbsp;In Bhagavad-gita (7.3), Krishna informs Arjuna, "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." &nbsp;Unless a person actually knows God, it is practically impossible to successfully abandon selfishness, which extends up to the desire for salvation. &nbsp;</p><p>
Dave said, "What do people need? A sense of purpose, security, and community; to be loved by a circle of family and friends; physical health." &nbsp;</p><p>
Ultimately these things cannot help. &nbsp;A sense of purpose? &nbsp;Every created thing must be destroyed. &nbsp;Security? &nbsp;Health? &nbsp;Same problem. &nbsp;Community, family, and friends? &nbsp;See below.</p><p>
Our faults are our selfish interests, which couple with our deep feeling of identification with our gross and subtle material bodies. &nbsp;Each of us has a strong drive to satisfy ourselves, and we make different varieties of arrangements in the form of communities, nations, etc., to satisfy our material needs. &nbsp;Yet we remain perpetually unhappy because of a constitutionally incompatible arrangement. &nbsp;Spirit is compatible with spirit, and matter with matter; yet we are spiritual beings trying to enjoy material nature, and incompatible situation. &nbsp;This situation can never be satisfying any more than finding a pot of gold in a dream. &nbsp;Because we are eternal spiritual persons, whatever enjoyment we feel in our connection with matter is temporary and illusory. &nbsp;Because of this illusion, we are unable to control our desires, unable to understand our relationship with God, and our situation will gradually become more unbearable until we are forced to realize that there is in fact no real happiness in our association with material nature. &nbsp;God is withholding His opulence from us so that we will wake up from this bodily identification. &nbsp;Therefore the only solution is to somehow awaken our dormant love of God, the ultimate goal of life. &nbsp;Hare Krishna.<br>
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				<p><strong>nitai gauranga</strong></p><p>It is true that religion teaches against over-consumption and economic injustice, but it also teaches that God is the ultimate source for granting everyone's wishes. &nbsp;For instance, in Sri Isopanishad, Mantra 8, God is described as "the self-sufficient philosopher who has been fulfilling everyone's desire since time immemorial." &nbsp; There are also teachings about a law of karma, which indicate that everyone gets what he or she deserves. &nbsp;Teachings such as these, when misunderstood (taken out of context), can give people a sense of entitlement or that the success in pursuit of enjoyment is a sign of piety.</p><p>
Of course, that conception entirely misses the point of religion, but one should not expect average people to easily understand the inconceivable reality that exists beyond their empiric jurisdiction. &nbsp;In Bhagavad-gita (7.3), Krishna informs Arjuna, "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." &nbsp;Unless a person actually knows God, it is practically impossible to successfully abandon selfishness, which extends up to the desire for salvation. &nbsp;</p><p>
Dave said, "What do people need? A sense of purpose, security, and community; to be loved by a circle of family and friends; physical health." &nbsp;</p><p>
Ultimately these things cannot help. &nbsp;A sense of purpose? &nbsp;Every created thing must be destroyed. &nbsp;Security? &nbsp;Health? &nbsp;Same problem. &nbsp;Community, family, and friends? &nbsp;See below.</p><p>
Our faults are our selfish interests, which couple with our deep feeling of identification with our gross and subtle material bodies. &nbsp;Each of us has a strong drive to satisfy ourselves, and we make different varieties of arrangements in the form of communities, nations, etc., to satisfy our material needs. &nbsp;Yet we remain perpetually unhappy because of a constitutionally incompatible arrangement. &nbsp;Spirit is compatible with spirit, and matter with matter; yet we are spiritual beings trying to enjoy material nature, and incompatible situation. &nbsp;This situation can never be satisfying any more than finding a pot of gold in a dream. &nbsp;Because we are eternal spiritual persons, whatever enjoyment we feel in our connection with matter is temporary and illusory. &nbsp;Because of this illusion, we are unable to control our desires, unable to understand our relationship with God, and our situation will gradually become more unbearable until we are forced to realize that there is in fact no real happiness in our association with material nature. &nbsp;God is withholding His opulence from us so that we will wake up from this bodily identification. &nbsp;Therefore the only solution is to somehow awaken our dormant love of God, the ultimate goal of life. &nbsp;Hare Krishna.<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Paul Kuchynskas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:31:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>E.F.  Schumacher  had Carter's ear.</strong></p><p>For me, there is a huge element of "been there, tried that" in the effort to revive religious teachings about consumerism. You can sum up recent cultural history if you just look at pop music: we have gone from Joni Mitchell to Madonna, and even Madonna has re-evolved into some kind of Kabbalistic Genie. However, I don't<br>
think God intoxication (Using god as a drug), <br>
even if God's love (defined by who &nbsp;&amp; what?) is <br>
an ultimate goal of life (a la the Chanting of Hare Krishna, endlessly)is anyone's meaningful solution either.(My apologies to the nuances of<br>
Pandhu, but I think he sets up a needless and false interpretation of Spirit/Matter dualism.</p><p>
I think the best insight is that we actually as <br>
a culture have little understanding and regard for the air, water, earth and sunlight that we<br>
share. That, and $2.00 will get me on the NYC <br>
Subway, I know. Hey! Now, that's a novel idea!<br>
Revive railroads in the USA, and solve a whole lot of suffering! God's love, in the form of relief for masses of people!!! Wow what a concept!</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>E.F.  Schumacher  had Carter's ear.</strong></p><p>For me, there is a huge element of "been there, tried that" in the effort to revive religious teachings about consumerism. You can sum up recent cultural history if you just look at pop music: we have gone from Joni Mitchell to Madonna, and even Madonna has re-evolved into some kind of Kabbalistic Genie. However, I don't<br>
think God intoxication (Using god as a drug), <br>
even if God's love (defined by who &nbsp;&amp; what?) is <br>
an ultimate goal of life (a la the Chanting of Hare Krishna, endlessly)is anyone's meaningful solution either.(My apologies to the nuances of<br>
Pandhu, but I think he sets up a needless and false interpretation of Spirit/Matter dualism.</p><p>
I think the best insight is that we actually as <br>
a culture have little understanding and regard for the air, water, earth and sunlight that we<br>
share. That, and $2.00 will get me on the NYC <br>
Subway, I know. Hey! Now, that's a novel idea!<br>
Revive railroads in the USA, and solve a whole lot of suffering! God's love, in the form of relief for masses of people!!! Wow what a concept!</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Pandu</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:18:48 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>spirit-matter dualism<p>Paul K., <p>
Ultimately everything is spiritual; however, experientially, God's energies exhibit different qualities. &nbsp;Those that manifest unlimited freedom and variagatedness are called spiritual, and those that are restricted in various ways are called material. &nbsp;<p>
Regarding the endless chanting of Hare Krishna, spiritual activities are everlasting and joyfully performed. &nbsp;(<a href="http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/2/en" rel="nofollow">http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/2/en) &nbsp;I find this Hare Krishna chanting to be ecstatic beyond description.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>spirit-matter dualism<p>Paul K., <p>
Ultimately everything is spiritual; however, experientially, God's energies exhibit different qualities. &nbsp;Those that manifest unlimited freedom and variagatedness are called spiritual, and those that are restricted in various ways are called material. &nbsp;<p>
Regarding the endless chanting of Hare Krishna, spiritual activities are everlasting and joyfully performed. &nbsp;(<a href="http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/2/en" rel="nofollow">http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/2/en) &nbsp;I find this Hare Krishna chanting to be ecstatic beyond description.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by accel2</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:26:18 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/materialism-and-material/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>So, spiritual = selfish?</strong></p><p>Pandu, by your logic you yourself will be eternally joyful but how about those who suffer and yet have absolutely no exposure to the religious beliefs that you think would save everybody from suffering?</p>
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				<p><strong>So, spiritual = selfish?</strong></p><p>Pandu, by your logic you yourself will be eternally joyful but how about those who suffer and yet have absolutely no exposure to the religious beliefs that you think would save everybody from suffering?</p>
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